Why Did God Plan for the Fall of Man?

[brightfame52]

Why Did God Plan for the Fall of Man?​

Eph 2:7

7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

 

[CrowCross]

If the former, then how is that reconciled with the Eden and its garden and the garden being on earth with the fact the adversary was cast down as the adversary to earth?

Are you now claiming angels can't visit earth in an unfallen state?

 

[Arial]

There's a word that's rarely being used in these conversations: the word "had," or "have."

Why did God have to plan for the fall? God had to plan for the fall. The had-to/have-to implies a necessity and a necessity implies requirement, determinism, obligation, as well as a potential lack on His part (because X is a problem and if He doesn't plan for X then X will continue to be a problem.... for Him). All of that is antithetical to divine omni-attributes.

The potential problems holding a correct knowledge and understanding of "God's plan for the fall" is not only that God planning the fall AND planning for the fall are at least potential) problems because God is not the author of sin and neither God nor His plan can be dependent on sin or its necessity. It is also that any creaturely necessity or product of creation cannot be more power than God.

Good point.

Personally I don't think God did plan the fall or that He planned for the fall. I think even asking that question is trying to peer into those places where God did not tell us to go. It is easy to forget that God is so other than humanity, vast as all eternity, and not even close to being fully comprehended by our small finite selves, lest we disintegrate, that we sometimes actually think we can answer all the questions that we can ask.

I suspect the answer to the OP question lies in what was going on before creation of this world, that would make the fall neither a plan of or a plan for the fall. A perfect action. About all we can say is, "It just is."

We are introduced to a being in the Garden of Eden that is evil. He was already there. And he is allowed to tempt Adam and Eve. And our first parents fell from their perfect estate. That is what we know. Though I often casually, speculatively, and not too seriously remember the first chapter of Job in this respect.

We know from what scripture tells us that the complete, full, in all its detail was known within the Godhead as the covenant of redemption. When was it known? From all eternity? God has all information, He does not learn it.

So, side tracking a tad, if more of us would contemplate such things as that from time to time, we may find that fear of God (reverence and terror)and some of the careless remarks about Him we see might diminish.

 

[Arial]

Why did God plan for the fall of Adam?

Because God knew it was going to happen.

That raises the question: Did God know Adam was going to fall and that is why He "came up with" a plan of redemption? Is that what you are saying? And why then did He not instead abort the creation, or create it differently, or throw the serpent out of Eden? Or prevent him from speaking? Or not put the tree of the knowledge of good and evil in the Garden of Eden?

Did He plan for the fall?

The fact that Jesus was the Lamb slain before the foundation of the world, I believe answers that question for you.

No it doesn't. Sorry. First you would have to tell me what you say slain before the foundation of the world means and why that would tell me it shows God planned for the fall. It does tell me that the plan of redemption already existed before our world was created with Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. But that is all it says. Not when before the creation. Or why? And certainly not that He planned for the fall.

The thing is, we don't know that He planned for the fall so how can we answer the question of why He did? So would the better question be "Did God plan the fall?" And even then we cannot answer with any absolute. We know what God tells us of Himself, one that He knows all things, all the time, and everywhere. All we can say for sure is that He knew Adam would fall and every result of that. We know He had covenant within the Godhead to redeem a people. We know Jesus came to accomplish that purpose and that He did accomplish it. We know that it is not only the redemption of mankind that is in play but the restoration of all the creation and the destruction forever of evil.

We cannot see into the secret things of God, those things He does not reveal to us, and no matter how hard we try, whatever our speculative finite minds can come up with, we are miles off the mark.

 

[CherubRam]

Before our world was created on the face of this earth.
Before anyone was born of Adam and the Woman?
Even before Adam and the woman existed?

God already planned for the Fall of Man.
Of course God is omniscient and knew man would fall.
The question I have God gave the green light to have man fall?

All those who make their home on the earth will worship the beast—those whose names have not been written ​

from the beginning of the world in the Book of Life, which belongs to the Lamb that was slain." Revelation 13:8​

There is a distinction made in Revelation 13:8 between the planet/earth. And, cosmos = world of mankind.

From the beginning of man's creation the Lamb was slain in preparation for the fall of man.

Now the question is?

Did God want the fall to take place?
And, did it serve God's purpose to have it happen?

In order to understand why the fall of Adam took place for God's purpose, we must first come to another realization.
That angels preceded the creation of man.

And, most importantly.

That before Adam and the woman were in the Garden?
Satan was already fallen. And, with his angels with him who had made a choice to rebel against the authority of God over them.

Young earth creationists will not be able to follow what I have to say unless they are willing to drop their bias.

The angels were originally given dominion over what we now refer to as the prehistoric earth.
Just like Adam at his creation was given dominion over our current created world, so were the angels over the prehistoric earth.

God had authority over the angels running the prehistoric world. Just as God had authority over Adam and the woman.

Some must wonder...
"Why should God want mankind to fall?"

After all.. He knew man would fall before creating him.

Revelation 13:8, tells us God already had plans to redeem man before man was created.

This may ruffle some feathers of some.

For others it will cause a sense of relief.
Relief to realize that the reason for the mess we are stuck in at present ?
Will all makes sense.

grace and peace ................

God gave man free will to judge him.

 

[Arial]

God gave man free will to judge him.

Judge who?

 

[GeneZ]

You continue to present speculation as biblical truth.

Speculation in your eyes it shall remain then.




............

 

[GeneZ]

God gave man free will to judge him.

To "evaluate" Him.

If we were created in God's image?
And, God is sovereignty?
Then, like God, in some manner man was granted a reserved place to be sovereign.

Man's sovereignty allows man to reject God.
For God can not over ride such a choice.

Man can also choose to believe in God.
Satan can not stop man from believing.
For man has been granted sovereignty in that area to choose.

 

[CherubRam]

To "evaluate" Him.

If we were created in God's image?
And, God is sovereignty?
Then, like God, in some manner man was granted a reserved place to be sovereign.

Man's sovereignty allows man to reject God.
For God can not over ride such a choice.

Man can also choose to believe in God.
Satan can not stop man from believing.
For man has been granted sovereignty in that area to choose.

Deuteronomy 30:19
This day I call the heavens and the earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live...

Matthew 19:17
“Why do you ask me about what is good?” Jesus replied. “There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, keep the commandments.”

 

[Ladodgers6]

Why do you keep wandering to where I did not go?

Instead of saying these comments, do you not understand the topic, specifically what I am pointing out? The point is does God decree that Adam sin or that God decreed to allow or permit the fall? There's no wandering around, but specific to the root of where evil and sin comes from.​

To me you are talking about what someone else may have said.

Let him answer.

Assumptions, not facts. Do your homework and research Scripture to see if God is the author of evil and sin.

 

[Musician]

Mankind's behavior is always a foregone conclusion. He knew they would cause themselves to fall, he just hasn't decided which day yet to pull the plug.

 

[GeneZ]

Instead of saying these comments, do you not understand the topic, specifically what I am pointing out? The point is does God decree that Adam sin or that God decreed to allow or permit the fall? There's no wandering around, but specific to the root of where evil and sin comes from.​

Assumptions, not facts. Do your homework and research Scripture to see if God is the author of evil and sin.

This is what I said...

God decreed that Adam would sin from his own free will.

May I ask? What about that said you do not understand?

How are you defining to "decree something?"

 

[Ladodgers6]

This is what I said...

God decreed that Adam would sin from his own free will.

May I ask? What about that said you do not understand?

How are you defining to "decree something?"

Didn't I say that it might be a matter of semantics?

 

[GeneZ]

Didn't I say that it might be a matter of semantics?

Yes you did. That is why I asked you that.

To me...

God saw that Adam from his free will would sin, and decreed that what is to be, will be as He decreed it to be.

What does decree mean as a verb?​

​

/dɪˈkriː/ to officially decide or order that something must happen. ​

​

Cambridge Dictionary.​

 

[sawdust]

And why then did He not instead abort the creation, or create it differently, or throw the serpent out of Eden? Or prevent him from speaking? Or not put the tree of the knowledge of good and evil in the Garden of Eden?

Because if any of those options were better for God's purpose then He would have decreed that universe be made manifest.

 

[Ladodgers6]

Yes you did. That is why I asked you that.

To me...

God saw that Adam from his free will would sin, and decreed that what is to be, will be as He decreed it to be.

What does decree mean as a verb?​

​

/dɪˈkriː/ to officially decide or order that something must happen. ​

​

Cambridge Dictionary.​

You said, I was wandering....

 

[makesends]

Satan, the serpent, fell prior to tempting Eve.

It is unknown how long the time period between day 7 when God announced all creation was VERY GOOD and the tempting of Eve.

I agree. However, I don't think the idea that God says it was very good means there was no evil, even then. His objective in creating —Heaven, and God's end for all things— is also VERY GOOD, but it comes about through, among other things, sin.

 

[makesends]

Well, the word is "ordained," not "decreed." I'm not interested in splitting hairs, but "decree" is one, but not the only definition of "ordain," and the Bible itself uses the term in diverse ways. They are not all causal. We should not be defining the term in any way contrary to the whole of scripture. For the sake of this exchange, I'd stick to the words of the Confession and not change them.

Very well, then, "ordained".

I would also not inject an "only" into that sentence because God decreed a plethora of conditions besides "things whatsoever come to pass." I would also read the "whatsoever comes to pass" within the limits stipulated by the rest of the article and the rest of the confession. He did not author sin. He does no violence to creaturely volition or secondary causes and their contingencies.

The problem there is that is a selective use of the Confession. The Confession itself provides its own stipulations for its own assertions. There is a very big, important, and necessary "yet" in the first statement. There are also two "nors".

God from all eternity did by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass; yet so as thereby neither is God the author of sin; nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures, nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established.​

Reading the first clause as if it is stated independent of the other clauses is incorrect practice. Article 3.1 is not four separate statements. It's a single statement with multiple conditioned clauses.

I did not mean for it to be apart from the rest of the chapter 3, nor, certainly, from the 1st statement under the heading, "Of God's Decree". I assumed, you being familiar with it, knew where I was coming from.

Many of which are "secondary," and the secondary cause have their own contingencies - and to neither of which did God's decrees do violence.

I believe I have made my position clear. I believe the WCF is also clear and not ambiguous in any way. Whatever God ordained (and God ordained whatsoever comes to pass) He ordained without authoring sin and without doing violence to human volition, and without doing violence to secondary causes and their contingencies. As I believe I have already posted, the WCF asserts sin as something not authored by God; it asserts human volitional agency, and it asserts the existence of secondary causes and it asserts those secondary causes have contingencies.

If you're going to subscribe to the WCF then subscribe to all of it and all of it exactly as stated.

I subscribe very happily to, at the very least, Chapter 3 of the WCF, but I am willing to disagree with the take some have on it. I had no intentions of misquoting it, but it is not scripture. I don't mind paraphrasing sometimes.

However, here's the thing: None of what I think, at least to my mind (and not, apparently, to your mind concerning my words) disagree with none of it, nor do I contradict it. I can quote word-for-word, what you said above and what I say does not disagree with it: "Whatever God ordained (and God ordained whatsoever comes to pass) He ordained without authoring sin and without doing violence to human volition, and without doing violence to secondary causes and their contingencies. As I believe I have already posted, the WCF asserts sin as something not authored by God; it asserts human volitional agency, and it asserts the existence of secondary causes and it asserts those secondary causes have contingencies."

Or, if you have areas of disagreement then acknowledge those differences as YOUR points of disagreement and don't impose them on others. I have points of disagreement with the WCF (none relevant to this thread) and I try not to use the WCF as a common measure in those areas.

I really don't get this. I have no quarrel with you or the WCF here. I agree completely with Chapter 3:1.

I'm asking you, HOW does God ordaining whatsoever comes to pass mean that he is the author of sin, etc? It doesn't mean that, you will say, and I agree. So why light into me about it? I too believe God's ordaining all things does no violence to secondary causes and their contingencies, and that God's ordaining all things does not violate human volition —in fact, I BELIEVE GOD ORDAINING ALL THINGS ESTABLISHES HUMAN VOLITION AND ITS CHOICES, AND ESTABLISHES SECONDARY CAUSES AND THEIR CONTINGENCIE, and, that in fact, his ordaining them is the ONLY way they are even real.

And I don't think you will disagree with me that human volition and secondary causes, nor their contingencies, have a freedom all their own, apart from God's ordaining and so establishing them.

 

[Arial]

Because if any of those options were better for God's purpose then He would have decreed that universe be made manifest.

This is what you were responding to with this post.

That raises the question: Did God know Adam was going to fall and that is why He "came up with" a plan of redemption? Is that what you are saying? And why then did He not instead abort the creation, or create it differently, or throw the serpent out of Eden? Or prevent him from speaking? Or not put the tree of the knowledge of good and evil in the Garden of Eden?

You answered the questions as though they were not part of an ongoing conversation dealing with the OP title. So really all you did was instead of phrasing what was questions, you put them forth as a statement of fact. Iow, no answer at all.

My point in asking them was to show God did not have to plan for the fall, therefore the OP question has no answer. In searching for that answer and discussing it back and forth, that conclusion should have been arrived at many pages ago.

But I guess the nature of the beast is such that we just can't stop defining God using our own finiteness as the plumbline.

 

[Josheb]

Are you now claiming angels can't visit earth in an unfallen state?

No, I am NOT claiming sinless (unfallen) angels cannot visit earth in an unfallen state.

Not even remotely implying such a premise and have no idea how that question was prompted from the sentence quoted, especially since I have already stated, "Those who did not fall are our ministering spirits." Angels are sent to provide service for the sake of those who will inherit salvation (Heb. 1:14). The witness of verses like Genesis 3:24 and 19:15-16, Judges 6:22, 2 Kings 6:16, Psalms 34:7 and 91:11, Daniel 6:22, Matthew 4:11, Luke 1:34 and 2:15, and many more inform us "unfallen" angels come to earth many times for many reasons. There are angels all around us.

Can't you see them?