Who are God's chosen People?

[Josheb]

I think some see them as chosen for a separate destiny,

Yes, that has been mentioned. The problem is there is no verse explicitly calling the nation of Israel God's chosen people. It has been acknowledged by one poster that position is garnered by inference but there's been no exposition of that inference, or the rationale necessary ti justify it.

...making two peoples of God,...

Which is exactly what I said. If the nation of Israel and the believers in Christ are both God's chosen people, then God has two chosen people and that also is nowhere to be found explicitly reported in scripture. The claim the nation was temporarily God's chosen people (it was definitely chosen but not chosen as His people) the not only does God have two chosen people, one former and one current, but the temporary aspect implies any status as God's chosen people may be temporary and the Church may one day no longer be God's chosen people.

My questions about these matters are valid.

contrary to apostolic teaching of one olive tree of God's people composed of all believers, Jew and Gentile (Ro 11:17-23).

How about we stick to scripture and start with what is explicitly stated? Appeals to "apostolic teaching" run into problems of relativism because every sect claims to be true to their version of apostolic teaching.

 

[Josheb]

The Nation of Israel is no longer a Covenant Nation with God that had stewardship of the Gospel, it was used of God for a while until Jesus was born, after that God destroyed it 70 ad and the stewardship of the Gospel, the things of God belong to Abrahams Spiritual Seed through Christ the Church, in fact the Spiritual things have always been for the benefit of the Church, Spiritual Israel within national israel Rom 9:6

Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all[spiritual elect] Israel, which are of[National] Israel:

Spiritual Israel is that Nation Jesus mentions here Matt 21:43

Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you[National israel], and given to a nation[Spiritual Israel that includes gentiles] bringing forth the fruits thereof.

Its the Israel of God Gal 6:16

16;And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.

The current state of israel over in the middle east, is no more than any other heathen gentile nation now. They over there are being saved like any other of Gods elect from any other nation, during the time of the Gentiles.

All of that is true.

But it does not explain how the position they were temporarily God's chosen people. The Hebrews were chosen for a purpose (and that purpose has already been cited using scripture in an earlier post of mine) and those Hebrews did eventually form a nation-state, but that nation was never called God's chosen people. God chooses a lot of people, individually and collectively, but He does not call them all His chosen people. Attempts to conflate "covenant nation" with "chosen people" is a false equivalence. Scripture never calls Israel a "covenant nation." The phrase is missing from scripture. The closest you or I will ever come to finding such a verse is...

Judges 2:20-22
So the anger of the LORD burned against Israel, and He said, "Because this nation has transgressed My covenant which I commanded their fathers and has not listened to My voice, I also will no longer drive out before them any of the nations which Joshua left when he died, in order to test Israel by them, whether they will keep the way of the LORD to walk in it as their fathers did, or not."

And that text should be understood within the context of what Paul wrote: Not all who are descended from Israel are Israel! and what Peter wrote, the saints are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God’s special possession. Therefore, is the nation mentioned in Judges 2:20 the Israel that is Israel, or the Israel that is not Israel? If it is the Israel that is not Israel...... then it is not a covenant nation. The Israel og Gal. 6:16 is the Israel that is descended from Israel, not the Israel that is not descended from Israel. Israel (Jacob) like his father before him (Isaac), was the son of promise. Paul explained this in Romans 9. That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants.


Therefore, Post #71 contains many good and excellent facts, but it does not explain how Israel was supposedly temporarily God's chosen people. The nation was chosen to provide a bloodline for the incarnation. The nation was not God's chosen people. Jews think that. Jews will think that all the way to the fiery lake.

John 3:18
Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

No one who denies the name of God's Son qualifies as HIs chosen people. The people God chooses believe.

 

[Josheb]

The current state of israel over in the middle east, is no more than any other heathen gentile nation now. They over there are being saved like any other of Gods elect from any other nation, during the time of the Gentiles.

I completely agree.

The problem is the nation of Israel in the Bible was not much better. They constantly disobeyed God, were adulterous and idolatrous, and chronically so despite God repeatedly providing an opportunity to repent and obey. God eventually divorced Himself from the nation because of their chronic covenant-breaking. Within the chronically covenant-breaking nation there existed those chosen by God who lived by faith. They, and not the nation, were, and have always been, God's people. Not all descended from Israel are descendants of Israel. The Jews made the mistake thinking they were. And that is why Jerusalem and the (non-existent at that time) nation was destroyed in 70 AD. Before that happened God revealed the identity of His chosen people (as described in this op).

 

[Mr GLee]

If I understand you correctly, you are going quite a bit beyond scripture's declarations concerning types, foreshadowings and representations, to come up with what you do there.

But, besides that, I see no explanation for why anyone should bring up the fact that God is not a racist into the discussion. What has that to do with anything we are discussing here?

Thanks,

I think I am within the limits concerning the law that without parables (unseen gospel understanding) Christ the husband spoke not.

God's chosen people not chosen race. They are chosen to be used in parables the signified understanding as metaphors.

An outward Jew like the use of Jacob (deceiver) representing dying mankind must be born again ,by the continuing of the spiritual seed Christ It began with Abel passed on to another second born Enos .

Genisis 4:25-26;And Adam knew his wife again; and she bare a son, and called his name Seth: For God, said she, hath appointed me another seed (Christ) instead of Abel, whom Cain slew. And to Seth, to him also there was born a son; and he called his name Enos: then began men to call upon the name of the Lord.

It was then with Enos that born-again men could call and be heard. Dying mankind must be born again. Not a New Testament law a reminder of Enos

Romans 2:28-29For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; (dying flesh) neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter;(death) whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Satan the king of racism goal is to deceive dying mankind God is a Jewish man as King of kings

When the vail was rent there was no Jewish King of kings sitting in what the unbelieving Jew called the Holy Place. Satan fell and could no longer deceive all the nations of the world that God is a dying Jewish man.


Revelation 20"1-3 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, (metaphor) cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years (metaphor) should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

 

[brightfame52]

Not that I'm surprised to hear this kind of thing from you, but, what??? --Spiritual Israel is within national israel????

Im not surprised you r n the dark on these sacred matters

 

[brightfame52]

So no longer as in the OT. We need not become members of national Israel to be come members of spiritual Israel, so why put it the way you did --was it a typo to say, "Spiritual Israel is within national israel"? Why the present tense, "IS", there?

Again in the ot times,most believers in Christ lived in and were part of national israel. At times gentile believers were added, like rahab. Now under the n.t times believers in Christ are mostly gentiles throughout the world.

 

[brightfame52]

@Josheb

All of that is true.

So I have explained what I meant

 

[brightfame52]

@Josheb

I completely agree.

Okay then thats it. Israel of God is the Body of Christ that shall be saved ! Whats your problem ? Whats your obsession with national israel ?

 

[brightfame52]

@Josheb

. Attempts to conflate "covenant nation" with "chosen people" is a false equivalence. Scripture never calls Israel a "covenant nation.

I disagree, The entire nation, whether elect or nonelect were Gods covenant people, due to the fact He delivered them from egypt Ex 19-20

Hebrews 8 indicated the nation was Gods Covenant People 7-9

7For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.

8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.

Face it, there was a chosen people within the chosen people as to say a Israel within Israel

 

[Josheb]

@Josheb

So I have explained what I meant

@Josheb

Okay then thats it. Israel of God is the Body of Christ that shall be saved ! Whats your problem ? Whats your obsession with national israel ?

No, you have not explained the supposed temporary nature of the nation as God's chosen people and that is not it.


My car is silver. My neighbor's car is white. 42,000 people live in my city and in the adjacent county there was once a huge battle fought during the civil war. The county in which I live was the temporary home of several of the US' founding fathers and eight former presidents have come from the state in which I live. The temperature outside my front door right now is 14 degrees. There are over 150,000 Jews currently living in my state, and 7.5 million of them living in the US. There are more Jews living in the US than there are in modern Israel.

These are all facts which you should have no dispute.

None of them explain how the Old Testament nation of Israel was temporarily God's chosen people. Post #71 lists a lot of facts, but those facts do not explain how the nation of Israel was temporarily God's chosen people. That is what you were asked to explain. Nothing else.



I will not belabor the point further. In the absence of an exegetical explanation and the presence of plenty of opportunity, repeated avoidance, ad hominem and unnecessary defensiveness I conclude the position has no merit and, therefore, reject it. The nation of Israel was never God's chosen people. The Israel that is Israel within the nation of Israel are God's people, not the nation as a whole, and definitely not the Israel that is not Israel within that nation. Paul and Peter expounded on the identity of God's chosen people, and they did it in a manner so no one would think the nation of Israel was it. Ever. Paul even went beyond the inception of Israel, all the way back to Abraham, to make sure this was understood.

 

[Eleanor]

Yes, that has been mentioned. The problem is there is no verse explicitly calling the nation of Israel God's chosen people. It has been acknowledged by one poster that position is garnered by inference but there's been no exposition of that inference, or the rationale necessary ti justify it.
Which is exactly what I said. If the nation of Israel and the believers in Christ are both God's chosen people, then God has two chosen people and that also is nowhere to be found explicitly reported in scripture. The claim the nation was temporarily God's chosen people (it was definitely chosen but not chosen as His people) the not only does God have two chosen people, one former and one current, but the temporary aspect implies any status as God's chosen people may be temporary and the Church may one day no longer be God's chosen people.
My questions about these matters are valid.

How about we stick to scripture and start with what is explicitly stated? Appeals to "apostolic teaching" run into problems of relativism because every sect claims to be true to their version of apostolic teaching.

Apostolic teaching is simply the NT epistles.

 

[Josheb]

@Josheb



I disagree, The entire nation, whether elect or nonelect were Gods covenant people, due to the fact He delivered them from egypt Ex 19-20

Hebrews 8 indicated the nation was Gods Covenant People 7-9

7For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.

8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.

Face it, there was a chosen people within the chosen people as to say a Israel within Israel

You're wrong but I will not belabor the matter with you because it is impossible to get any semblance of an immediate or cogent response from you and I don't want you mucking up the thread any further. Do a study of the word "nation" in scripture. Then do a study of two words combined, "nation AND covenant." Bend your thoughts and beliefs to what is stated therein.

 

[Josheb]

Apostolic teaching is simply the NT epistles.

Then call it the NT epistles, not apostolic teaching.

 

[Eleanor]

Yes, that has been mentioned. The problem is there is no verse explicitly calling the nation of Israel God's chosen people. It has been acknowledged by one poster that position is garnered by inference but there's been no exposition of that inference, or the rationale necessary ti justify it.

Which is exactly what I said. If the nation of Israel and the believers in Christ are both God's chosen people, then God has two chosen people and that also is nowhere to be found explicitly reported in scripture. The claim the nation was temporarily God's chosen people (it was definitely chosen but not chosen as His people) the not only does God have two chosen people, one former and one current, but the temporary aspect implies any status as God's chosen people may be temporary and the Church may one day no longer be God's chosen people.

My questions about these matters are valid.

How about we stick to scripture and start with what is explicitly stated? Appeals to "apostolic teaching" run into problems of relativism because every sect claims to be true to their version of apostolic teaching.

Would you consider those who believed in the promise (Ge 5:5, seed, Jesus Christ, Gal 3:16) and were, therefore, imputed with righteousness (Ge 5:6) to be his chosen people?

 

[Eleanor]

Then call it the NT epistles, not apostolic teaching.

What other authoritative apostolic teaching do we have?

 

[Josheb]

Would you consider those who believed in the promise (Ge 5:5, seed, Jesus Christ, Gal 3:16) and were, therefore, imputed with righteousness (Ge 5:6) to be his chosen people?

I'd use the word "credited" over "imputed," but, yes, according to scripture, righteousness is credited to those who believe in God's promises (which are soteriological in nature and pertain to Jesus).

Romans 1:17 ESV
For in [the gospel] the righteousness of God is revealed from faith for faith, as it is written, “The righteous shall live by faith.”

Romans 4:5-8
But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness, just as David also speaks of the blessing on the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works: "Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, and whose sins are covered; blessed is the man against whom the Lord will not count his sin.”


And those are attributes of God's chosen people, but I am not aware of any scripture that explicitly makes that connection. The op is about the identity of God's chosen people, not their attributes (imputed, credited, or otherwise). I am, therefore, wondering how this is relevant to the op.

 

[Eleanor]

I'd use the word "credited" over "imputed,"

I like "reckoned."

but, yes, according to scripture, righteousness is credited to those who believe in God's promises (which are soteriological in nature and pertain to Jesus).

Romans 1:17 ESV
For in [the gospel] the righteousness of God is revealed from faith for faith, as it is written, “The righteous shall live by faith.”

Romans 4:5-8
But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness, just as David also speaks of the blessing on the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works: "Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, and whose sins are covered; blessed is the man against whom the Lord will not count his sin.”

And those are attributes of God's chosen people, but I am not aware of any scripture that explicitly makes that connection. The op is about the identity of God's chosen people, not their attributes (imputed, credited, or otherwise). I am, therefore, wondering how this is relevant to the op.

 

[brightfame52]

@Josheb

No, you have not explained the supposed temporary nature of the nation as God's chosen people and that is not it.

I have but you cant comprehend it

 

[brightfame52]

You're wrong but I will not belabor the matter with you because it is impossible to get any semblance of an immediate or cogent response from you and I don't want you mucking up the thread any further. Do a study of the word "nation" in scripture. Then do a study of two words combined, "nation AND covenant." Bend your thoughts and beliefs to what is stated therein.

No Im correct, like the passover, any and all of the nation of israel could partake of the passover, even the non elect jews who were of Abrahams physical desecent, but to partake of the Lords supper. one would have to be a believer in Christ, so that would be only the remnant within the nation, just using that for an example. Thats because while the OT Covenant was in tact, the Nation was Gods chosen Covenant People, redeemed from egypt, but following the Death of Christ, the nation lost that distinction, hence it was only temporary, until the time of reformation, which was Christ Heb 9:10

10 Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.

Heb 8:7-8,13

7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.

8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

It was temporary

 

[makesends]

makesends said:
So no longer as in the OT. We need not become members of national Israel to be come members of spiritual Israel, so why put it the way you did --was it a typo to say, "Spiritual Israel is within national israel"? Why the present tense, "IS", there?

Again in the ot times,most believers in Christ lived in and were part of national israel. At times gentile believers were added, like rahab. Now under the n.t times believers in Christ are mostly gentiles throughout the world.

So, again, why the present tense declaration of, "Spiritual Israel IS within national israel"? You have not answered me that.