Who are God's chosen People?

[Hazelelponi]

What do you think we'll be doing in heaven? I certainly hope we won't be sitting on a cloud playing harps.

No time would equal no boredom I imagine.

 

[Hazelelponi]

I completely agree.

The problem is the nation of Israel in the Bible was not much better. They constantly disobeyed God, were adulterous and idolatrous, and chronically so despite God repeatedly providing an opportunity to repent and obey. God eventually divorced Himself from the nation because of their chronic covenant-breaking.

We are the same, have you noticed? Is the visible church any better than visible national Israel of Jesus' time?

I think not.

I was raised in the US, lived around Christians, it took 42 years to find one person to adequately explain salvation to me...

We are not better, they are not better. We are just saved, and repentant, and being sanctified.

Within the chronically covenant-breaking nation there existed those chosen by God who lived by faith. They, and not the nation, were, and have always been, God's people. Not all descended from Israel are descendants of Israel. The Jews made the mistake thinking they were. And that is why Jerusalem and the (non-existent at that time) nation was destroyed in 70 AD. Before that happened God revealed the identity of His chosen people (as described in this op).

And God will judge us just the same if we don't keep the faith appropriately.

 

[Josheb]

We are the same, have you noticed?

You'll have to clarify that sameness before I can answer that question.

Is the visible church any better than visible national Israel of Jesus' time?

I reject the notion of a "visible" and an "invisible" church. I understand w=how the terms came about and the purpose those labels serve, but I do not find them consistent with scripture. There is only one Church in the Bible, those called out, the saints, the body of Christ - whether visible or invisible. The person sitting in the pew next to me who does not believe in Jesus, especially those who claim some allegiance to the name but have not been born anew from above is not the Church. If a comparison between Old and New were to be made, the poseur is comparable to the Israel that is not Israel. They are not God's chosen people.

I think not.

I think not, too. Comparing the Church to geo-political nation-state Israel would be a false equivalence...... except for those in that nation-state who lived by faith in the Christological covenant promises as described in the New Testament epistolary.

We are not better, they are not better. We are just saved, and repentant, and being sanctified.

.....they are not saved, or repentant, nor are they being sanctified. There are no Jews or Gentiles in Christ Jesus.

And God will judge us just the same if we don't keep the faith appropriately.

Hmmm..., not quite.

Everyone gets judged......
.....but the judgment has already been given (John 3:18-19).
Those not believing in Jesus already stand condemned....
....but there is now no condemnation for those in Christ Jesus (Rom. 8:1).

Therefore, when we talk about "Judgment Day," what we are more accurately talking about is "Sentencing Day;" the day when God metes out the just recompense for sin.... or faith. God is not mocked. A person reaps what s/he sows. Those who sow to the flesh reap destruction, and those who sow to the Spirit reap eternal life. It is God who works in the saint to will and work for His good pleasure (Php. 2:13). We do not do that merely with or in our flesh. If a person does not "keep the faith," then s/he wasn't saved to begin with... BUT "keeping the faith," is defined by God, not us. Paul wrote about how Christ is the only foundation upon which anyone can build. A person can build on that foundation with many things but all of it will be tested by God. If all that work is destroyed that person building on the foundation of Christ will emerge empty handed, charred and covered in soot, but still saved (1 Cor. 3:11-15). It is those not building on Christ that perish and that includes the poseurs who claim to be building on the right foundation but aren't (Mt. 7:21-23).

God is inherently and always a fruit-bearing almighty God who never fails. If God has saved a person, then He will continue and finish His salvific work in that individual's life. S/he will be saved. On the other hand, a person who God has not seen fit to save has never been saved and s/he will not be saved. It's not up to us. Thinking salvation is up to us is the fundamental flaw in synergism. The sinner's will is irrelevant. The sinner's works are irrelevant. Salvation is God's and it is He alone who saves.

We all get judged, but we do not all get judged the same.

 

[makesends]

No time would equal no boredom I imagine.

Ha! Cute! Nice math.

To put what I want to say into my necessarily human terminology, I think we would die from effort and intense activity if Christ was not our very sustenance there. I get this from all sorts of scripture passages taken rather literally (but not temporally), such as those relating to spiritual food, and from Him saying the seemingly paradoxical, "my yoke is easy and my burden is light"; and other such things throughout scripture, OT and NT, such as, "Taste and see that the Lord is good"; and, "The law of the Lord is perfect, refreshing the soul"; and, "my food is to do the will of Him who sent me"; and the 'already-but-not-yet' of, "for to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain". And that is both work and worship, I think, both the one activity—maybe even as outrageous and uninhibited as David dancing in the streets! (And I don't even like dancing!)

Can you imagine exploring the mind of God?! Or listening to Him sing!

 

[Hazelelponi]

I think, both the one activity—maybe even as outrageous and uninhibited as David dancing in the streets! (And I don't even like dancing!)

I agree..

Can you imagine exploring the mind of God?! Or listening to Him sing!

I can imagine God, who is Spirit, singing.

But we are the strings and the chords and the notes that are struck, as His Spirit bathes us in His Glory, and we sing His praises ever more as we know Him more and more....

This is the second time you mentioned this question to me, so I figured to mention, this is what comes to my mind when we talk about God singing over us loudly:

I see a multitude no one can number before the Throne, on their faces before the Throne of God, bathed in God's Spirit so it's pounding through every pore in purity and power, a God who knows each one of them individually, personally, and is having the same intimate experience with each one of them and it in no way diminishes His essence or His presence in any way, and the multitude is just praising and praising and praising His Name, and praising for His Salvation and Honor...

And this is how He sings over us loudly, though God is Spirit.

That's what I see when I close my eyes and consider it. We are the strings, and His love and intimate presence and relationship makes the song.

 

[Hazelelponi]

. I understand w=how the terms came about and the purpose those labels serve, but I do not find them consistent with scripture.

You should have said this and then stopped speaking honestly.

You clearly understood the premise I was using in my writing, and you chose to IGNORE my entire premise because you didn't "agree" with an abstract consistency that did not apply to our little chat.

The post I quoted was critical of the Jewish people throughout time and history because of their many sins.

Well, it wasn't the faithful of the Jews who were getting the nation in trouble with God either. It was ye ole Jewish sinner.

In like manner today it's ye ole Christian sinner, who's no more saved than ye ole Jewish sinner from times past was, that causes judgement in our respective nations.

 

[Hazelelponi]

BUT "keeping the faith," is defined by God, not us. Paul wrote about how Christ is the only foundation upon which anyone can build

I agree, that's why I used the language "keeping the faith".

I agree with you overall - or at least I think I do - but whenever the judgement of Israel is brought up I'm reminded of our own nation's judgement.

I posted to remind of that, not to have some weird argument about whether there's unbelievers who look to all the world like Christians, but to agree and remind.

Yes, the Jews were taken completely out of the Covenant in order to graft them back in. Yes, they get saved like everyone else.

But we are not better, and we have our nations judgement to wade through - our physical nations judgement...

The Jews who got judged were still tithing to the minutia and our nation is turning into Sodom and Gomorrah. It's humbling at the least.

 

[Josheb]

I agree, that's why I used the language "keeping the faith".

I agree with you overall - or at least I think I do - but whenever the judgement of Israel is brought up I'm reminded of our own nation's judgement.

I posted to remind of that, not to have some weird argument about whether there's unbelievers who look to all the world like Christians, but to agree and remind.

Yes, the Jews were taken completely out of the Covenant in order to graft them back in. Yes, they get saved like everyone else.

But we are not better, and we have our nations judgement to wade through - our physical nations judgement...

The Jews who got judged were still tithing to the minutia and our nation is turning into Sodom and Gomorrah. It's humbling at the least.

Relevance?

 

[Hazelelponi]

Relevance?

Absolutely none. I'm perfectly happy to leave aside conversation. It was just a simple post.

 

[Mr GLee]

I agree, that's why I used the language "keeping the faith".

I agree with you overall - or at least I think I do - but whenever the judgement of Israel is brought up I'm reminded of our own nation's judgement.

I posted to remind of that, not to have some weird argument about whether there's unbelievers who look to all the world like Christians, but to agree and remind.

Yes, the Jews were taken completely out of the Covenant in order to graft them back in. Yes, they get saved like everyone else.

But we are not better, and we have our nations judgement to wade through - our physical nations judgement...

The Jews who got judged were still tithing to the minutia and our nation is turning into Sodom and Gomorrah. It's humbling at the least.

Remember a Jew or Israelite is not one outwardly according to the temporal flesh but is one inwardly born again of the Spirit of Christ, as in whosoever has not the born-again Spirit of Christ does not belong to the family of Christ, our husband. They would remain under Jacob deceiver to represent unredeemed mankind .

Romans 2:28-29 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:;But he is a (born again) Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter;(death) whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Romans 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of (born again )Israel:

Because God is not a racist in Isaiah 62 He promised to rename his bride of all the nations, all flesh also prophesied beforehand by Joel

Acts 2:16-17;But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;;And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

Isaiah 62:1-2 For Zion's sake will I not hold my peace, and for Jerusalem's sake I will not rest, until the righteousness thereof go forth as brightness, and the salvation thereof as a lamp that burneth. And the Gentiles (all flesh) shall see thy righteousness, and all kings thy glory: and thou shalt be called by a new name, (Christian) which the mouth of the Lord shall name.

Named By Christ in Acts

Acts 11:26 And when he had found him, he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church, and taught much people. And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch.

Born again Christian. a demonym "people know by (GPS) location" .

A more befitting name to name the bride of all the nations but like the word Israel all who name the name Christian are not born again and remain under Jacob the deceiver

Sound D Trump make the name born again "Christian" great again. Make those who use it as derogatory think twice.

 

[Paul]

That is in response to exactly what?

Those chosen by God. The praise of God not man. The world may call others Gods chosen people but the children of God is as stated those born from above by the Spirit at Gods will and praise not the praise of man.

Jesus informed those that opposed Him and claimed God alone was their Father that if God was their Father they would love Him for God was the one who sent Him.

 

[makesends]

Those chosen by God. The praise of God not man. The world may call others Gods chosen people but the children of God is as stated those born from above by the Spirit at Gods will and praise not the praise of man.

Jesus informed those that opposed Him and claimed God alone was their Father that if God was their Father they would love Him for God was the one who sent Him.

I was asking, which post, or if it was only to part of a post, which part of which post, are you commenting on there.

 

[Paul]

I was asking, which post, or if it was only to part of a post, which part of which post, are you commenting on there.

I’m answering the OP. Those in Christ have been chosen and are the children of God. Those who reject the Son for any reason are cut off and are Not in any covenant with God.

 

[David Lamb]

Named By Christ in Acts

Acts 11:26 And when he had found him, he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church, and taught much people. And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch.

Where do we read in Acts 11:26, or the surrounding verses, that they were called Christians by Christ? The verses simply says that they were first called Christians in Antioch.

 

[Mr GLee]

Where do we read in Acts 11:26, or the surrounding verses, that they were called Christians by Christ? The verses simply says that they were first called Christians in Antioch.

Called by God according to the promise of God (Isaiah 62).

Called of God used that way 9 times in the New Testament

Chrisitan A more befitting name to name the bride of all the nations. "Resident of the city of Christ the bride" named after its founder and husband Christ

 

[David Lamb]

Called by God according to the promise of God (Isaiah 62).

Called of God used that way 9 times in the New Testament

Chrisitan A more befitting name to name the bride of all the nations. "Resident of the city of Christ the bride" named after its founder and husband Christ

But Isaiah 62 is not about believers in Jesus Christ being given the name "Christian". Nowhere in the bible are we told that God gave that name. Don't misunderstand me though - I don't mean that "Christian" is a bad name. It is good. I am only saying that there is no biblical warrant for saying that God gave that name.

 

[ReverendRV]

Who are God's chosen People?

According to the New Testament,

1 Peter 2:4-10
As you come to him, a living stone rejected by men but in the sight of God chosen and precious, you yourselves like living stones are being built up as a spiritual house, to be a holy priesthood, to offer spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. For it stands in Scripture: “Behold, I am laying in Zion a stone, a cornerstone chosen and precious, and whoever believes in him will not be put to shame.” So the honor is for you who believe, but for those who do not believe, “The stone that the builders rejected has become the cornerstone,” and “A stone of stumbling, and a rock of offense.” But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for his own possession, that you may proclaim the excellencies of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light. Once you were not a people, but now you are God’s people; once you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy.

The pronouns in this passage refer to

1 Peter 1:1-2
Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ,

To those who reside as aliens, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, who are chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood: May grace and peace be yours in the fullest measure.


Peter has, therefore identified those who are God's chosen people as those chosen according to the foreknowledge of God, those who obey Jesus Christ by means of the sanctifying work of the Spirit; those sprinkled with Christ's blood. Peter's epistle is filled with Old Testament references, implying those references are applicable to those chosen by God to obey Jesus. If that is not the case the Pater is taking liberties with Tanakh, possibly to the point of abusing those texts and we need no take anything Peter has written to be divinely inspired. If, however, Peter was inspired by the Holy Spirit to reveal the meaning of the OT texts pertaining to the identity of God's "chosen people" then this passage explains all the Old Testament mentions of God's chosen people.

The newer revelation explains the older revelation(s).

Peter has said "a" chosen race, not "the" chosen race. This could, logically speaking, mean God has more than one chosen race or people but since there is no place in scripture explicitly stating God has two or more chosen peoples, that interpretation would 1) be entirely inferential and 2) not founded on something scripture explicitly teaches.

There is, of course, a theology within Christianity that teaches the exact opposite. I won't name it at this time because I don't want to disrupt this commentary. That theology holds God has two completely different peoples with two completely different purposes. That theology stands in open opposition to all the other theologies known throughout historical and orthodox Christianity since its inception. That theology also asserts a discontinuity of scripture not shared by the rest of Christendom.​

Lastly, there are over 100 verses in the Bible that contain the word "chosen" but only eight of them specifically mention God's chosen people, or people chosen by God. Anyone with an eBible that has a search function should be able to track down those eight verses, examine them, and stick to what they state for the sake of this thread. Most of those verses are in the Old Testament. I mention this because it is clear and undeniable fact God first broached the matter of a "chosen people" in Tanakh. However, because most of us a Christians, not Jews, the newer revelation defines and explains the older revelation and defines who are God's chosen people.

Spiritual Israel are God's Chosen People...

 

[Josheb]

Spiritual Israel are God's Chosen People...

Hmmm... "'spiritual' Israel"?

Where might I find that phrase in my Bible? I'm guessing the thread wasn't read through (like posts 35, 37, or 44). A problem arises when people use invented, or extra-biblical doctrinal terms they do not define. One of those problems is that using the definition saves everyone time so the undefined terms don't need to be used (and we do not fall prey to making mistakes handling scripture). Do you think @makesends, @brightfame52, @Mr GLee, and yourself use the term identically?

Tell me what you mean (how you define the term) and where I might find the phrase in my Bible.

Or (please) reword the answer.

 

[ReverendRV]

Hmmm... "'spiritual' Israel"?

Where might I find that phrase in my Bible? I'm guessing the thread wasn't read through (like posts 35, 37, or 44). A problem arises when people use invented, or extra-biblical doctrinal terms they do not define. One of those problems is that using the definition saves everyone time so the undefined terms don't need to be used (and we do not fall prey to making mistakes handling scripture). Do you think @makesends, @brightfame52, @Mr GLee, and yourself use the term identically?

Tell me what you mean (how you define the term) and where I might find the phrase in my Bible.

Or (please) reword the answer.

You know me; I assert Systematic Theology is a Valid form of Argumentation, and requesting a Verbatim Verse from the Bible before you will agree can be a deflection. Not All Israel is Israel, and Christians are the Children of Promise. I'm not interested in arguing for it, because I feel it doesn't need defending; but I might be interested in Moderating a Private Debate between you and another Poster...

Do you remember the Private Debate Rules?

1) This is the Private Debate Board; only the agreed upon Participants are invited to Debates occurring here, though Members can Start their own Debate Threads. Before a Debate starts, all Participants should acknowledge they've read these Rules. Topics should be clearly defined, and pertain to Calvinism's Doctrines; or closely related Topics. Pasting a Linked Sentence or small Paragraph is allowed. Theology is a Valid form of Argumentation, and will not be called Eisegesis. A Verbatim Verse is not needed to Score Points, though Prooftexts ARE Biblical and will be allowed in a Debate. We all should know our Bible; if your Opponent alludes to a Verse without giving you a Citation, claiming no Scripture was given is out of bounds. Do not Arbitrarily dismiss your Opponent's Position. Bald Assertions as Answers, are Fallacious; such as, 'All Calvinism is Hyper Calvinism'. Staying on Topic is necessary, and changing the Subject can be considered a Foul (IE changing a Topic from Unconditional Election to Unconditional Reprobation, etc). Fouls may also be called for Rudeness, long Posts, not answering questions, etc; anything your Moderator considers to be out of Order under these ten Rules...

Thread 'The List of Rules...'

Dec 11, 2023

THE LIST OF RULES...

1) This is the Private Debate Board; only the agreed upon Participants are invited to Debates occurring here, though Members can Start their own Debate Threads. Before a Debate starts, all Participants should acknowledge they've read these Rules. Topics should be clearly defined, and pertain to Calvinism's Doctrines; or closely related Topics. Pasting a Linked Sentence or small Paragraph is allowed. Theology is a Valid form of Argumentation, and will not be called Eisegesis. A Verbatim Verse is not needed to Score Points, though Prooftexts ARE Biblical and...

• ReverendRV

• 

I wrote these Debate Rules, because I get tired of people dodging great points. You helped me come up with them...

 

[brightfame52]

Hmmm... "'spiritual' Israel"?

Where might I find that phrase in my Bible? I'm guessing the thread wasn't read through (like posts 35, 37, or 44). A problem arises when people use invented, or extra-biblical doctrinal terms they do not define. One of those problems is that using the definition saves everyone time so the undefined terms don't need to be used (and we do not fall prey to making mistakes handling scripture). Do you think @makesends, @brightfame52, @Mr GLee, and yourself use the term identically?

Tell me what you mean (how you define the term) and where I might find the phrase in my Bible.

Or (please) reword the answer.

Yeah Spiritual Israel, and i dont believe that phrase is in the bible, its a understanding thing.