When is the Tribulation period?

[Red Baker]

"This generation" has nothing to do with being descriptive of a particular "type" throughout all of human history.

The word of God will define its use of words! Are you and the people of this world wiser than Solomon?

Proverbs 30:11-14~"There is a generation that curseth their father, and doth not bless their mother. There is a generation that are pure in their own eyes, and yet is not washed from their filthiness. There is a generation, O how lofty are their eyes! and their eyelids are lifted up. There is a generation, whose teeth are as swords, and their jaw teeth as knives, to devour the poor from off the earth, and the needy from among men."

Generation here means a kind of person, for it lacks demonstrative pronouns or other modifiers for a period of time. It is not a prophecy of the future, when children would be rebellious, for all ages have such sinners.

The first generation, or kind of evil person, is cruel and rebellious to parents. The remaining three are self explanatory of a type of wicked and evil people living in this world and will be here until Christ comes again, even in larger numbers than ever lived on this earth at any given time, which will be the very source of the great tribulation period prophesied by Daniel, and spoken of by Christ, and his apostles that followed.

 

[Red Baker]

This Generation Shall Not Pass, Till​

All These Things be Fulfilled​

by Tony Warren​

atthew chapter twenty-four has been a difficult chapter for many Reformed Christians to understand, as even seasoned theologians seem to stumble when exegeting the phrase "this generation." Consequently, we thought that a frequently asked question page concerning this issue should be written. When Christ declared that this generation would not pass until all the things that He spoke about would be fulfilled, the question most frequently asked is, "how could all those things that Christ had spoken about be fulfilled before that generation had passed?"
Matthew 24:33-34

• "So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
• Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled."

Most Reformed Christians understand that this Chapter is speaking about later day occurrences, and so they are puzzled as to how the phrase "this generation" fits into that context. The confusion exists because so many Christians are unaware that there are several ways that this Greek word [genea] that is often translated generation, is used in the Bible. It is often in contrast to extra-Biblical or secular dictionary definitions. First of all, this word is from the root [genos], meaning a common birth or kin relationship, such as family. By extension it is used in the Scriptures in four very distinct, and yet intimately related ways.
1. Through kin or family, it denotes a particular member's patriarchal life span (generation) or related time period.
2. Through kin or family, it denotes a physical family's ancestry, posterity, lineage or genealogy.
3. Through kin or family, it denotes a spiritual family ancestry, as a kindred of Satan or evil.
4. Through kin or family, it denotes a spiritual family ancestry, as a kindred of Christ or righteousness.

These are four related and yet very distinct and Biblically justifiable applications of this word. The word translated generation is unambiguously used in the Bible in all these contexts. Even most of those holding to a Praeterit Eschatology will not deny this fact.

Another point that is worthy of note is that Scripture has always dated itself by Patriarchs or founding father figures. Even to this day we date this way (probably without even giving it much thought). Whenever someone says that this is the year 1999, they are dating (though not accurately) by our Patriarch reference, Christ. In other words, we are saying that we are living 1,999 years after the birth of Christ (AD, anno domini, or the year of our Lord). He is the Patriarch reference by which a large part of the civilized world dates today. This is a biblical historical practice that dates back to the very beginning, and is explained in depth in my paper on the "The Biblical Timeline of Creation." My point here being, the year we use is really a Patriarch family or generation reference.

Moreover, there are actually four words that are translated "generation" in the New Testament. They are {genesis], [gennema], [genos] and [genea]. The root of all three refer back to family or kindred Of course, "by extension" it can also mean the period of a family line, or even a Patriarch's offspring, but the root is family. For example, if we were to declare that something occurred in the 4th generation, we would be saying that it happened in the family period of the 4th Patriarch child. So it would be illustrating a particular family relationship removed by three from the original Patriarch reference. W see a form of this in the listing of Christ's family in the first chapter of Matthew:

Matthew 1:1

• "The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham."

This is the book of the [genesis], the origin, the family source or kindred of Jesus Christ. Obviously so, as it is a list of His ancestral or family history, again pointing to the fact that all these words are rooted in the "family" relationship. In other words, they are only listed there because they are his family line or ancestry. Understanding this principle, we can see how God unambiguously uses these words translated generation in Scripture, to signify not only the physical family of God, but the Spiritual family of God. Not coincidentally, He also uses it to speak of the spiritual family of His adversary, the Devil. These are two families are people of two contrasting and distinct seeds. Even as God Himself spoke of them in the Garden of Eden, and the enmity He declared would be between them. The children of God and children of the Devil are two diverse and distinct generations or families from these two seeds. The family of God extends all the way back to the beginning. Likewise, the family of Satan extends to the same period, illustrated vividly in the episode of Abel and Cain. The way that the word of God uses the phrase "the Generation of evil", makes it synonymous with the children (or family) of the Devil. It does not refer only to an immediate present day family group. The Generation of evil refers to all the seed of the Serpent throughout time, who are of that family by their Patriarchal relationship to the spirit of Satan. Just as the children of God refer to the whole family of God, which are a chosen generation, [genos] or family (1st Peter 2:9) extending throughout time. So it's not just people who happen to be living at the time in which the phrase was written. God uses these family relationships to illustrate those who are of the same spiritual kinship, as illustrated in passages like John chapter 8:


John 8:44

• "Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it."

Once again we see that Christ is clearly explaining the divine truth that they were the kindred, seed or children of the Devil. They were part of a particular spiritual family group relationship and that is why Christ identifies their "father" as the Devil. Satan is the spiritual Patriarch reference for the whole generation or family of evil. Clearly, Satan has had many children throughout time, not merely these whom Christ was speaking to in this immediate context. All those under Satan's spiritual control are the generation or family of evil which has existed from the beginning. In Biblical terms, they are the spiritual offspring (generation) of their Patriarch reference, which is that old Serpent the Devil and Satan. Just as when Christ speaks of the people as a generation of vipers, He is identifying that seed, these children, that family group, as a people who serve their father Satan. He is not talking about everyone in that physical generation or time period. Nor were all living in that physical (generation) time span, this generation Christ spoke of. Nor could they be, since they all were not children of Satan or of evil.
Matthew 12:32-35

• "And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.
• Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit.
• O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.
• A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things."

How can a [gennema] (meaning offspring or family) of vipers, children of the serpent, speak good things when they speak from their heart, which is full of evil. This family (translated generation) that Christ references is the seed of the serpent, children of vipers. That clearly cannot be all the physical generation alive at that time, which consists of the Apostles, John the Baptist, Mary, Elizabeth, or any of the true church of that period. They cannot commit the unforgivable sin of blaspheming the Holy Ghost. Of necessity it has to be only the unregenerate 'family' of the viper Satan. Not the whole generation living at that time, He spoke of the family of Satan who cannot escape the damnation of Hell--that generation. Therefore, when Christ calls them the [gennema] of vipers, he is not referring to all those people of that time (as many often understand generation to to mean), but he is speaking only of the seed of the serpent, Satan. It is a family or generation of evil that cannot escape judgment, and Satan is their spiritual Patriarch father.
Matthew 23:32-34

• Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.
• Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?
• Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:"

To be continue... ( note: I left every word just as Mr. Warren wrote them, even if I may disagree with a little here and there, but overall an excellent article on this generation as found in Matthew 24. RB)

 

[Red Baker]

Psalms 140:1-3

• "Deliver me, O LORD, from the evil man: preserve me from the violent man;
• Which imagine mischiefs in their heart; continually are they gathered together for war.
• They have sharpened their tongues like a serpent; adders' poison is under their lips. Selah."

The adder is a type of viper or snake representing Satan, and these people are of that family of evil. Men who, out of the evil in their hearts, bring forth wicked fruit. In this we see that there is not only precedence for the word generation not used in reference to the present time, but many times the context itself demands that it not be understood that way. A generation of vipers are a evil family [gennema], kindred spirits with the Devil.
And we should also not lose sight of the fact that in order for All to be fulfilled in that physical generation (which Christ declared in Matthew chapter 24), the time He refers to must have all those things fulfilled. Not a few, not some, not most, but all. So the time when all will be fulfilled must be at the end of the world/age, only then will this generation of evil pass. When we study the context of Matthew chapter 24, it becomes abundantly clear that this end time period is what God is referring to when all will be fulfilled.

Matthew 24:3

• "And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?"

We are all well aware of the claims that the end of the age took place in 70 AD, but that is a Biblically untenable position for several reasons. First, the end of the age if it referred to the Old Testament dispensation came when Christ died and was resurrected (approximately 33 AD), not almost 40 years later in A.D. 70. Second, His coming is declared to be as it was in the days of Noah, global and world devastating, and that didn't happen in A.D 70. The proponents of this theory come to this disjointed conclusion by selectively interpreting age/world [aion], and then arbitrarily making the supposition that there was an end of the age/world in A.D. 70. This despite the fact that there is absolutely no Biblical warrant for declaring 70 AD as the time of an end of an age. Not one single Scripture makes that claim. So while they insist that Matthew 24's declaration of the end of the world is a mis-translation of the word [aion] meaning age, they are still unable to coherently explain verses such as found in Luke chapter 18:
Luke 18:30

• "Who shall not receive manifold more in this present time, and in the world to come life everlasting."

This is the exact same Greek word [aion], meaning world/age. If that present time when Christ spoke was before 70 AD when He says they receive manifold more, and the age to come brought eternal life for them, then obviously 70 AD being the next age (according to their theory) must have been the age when eternal life was instituted. Did eternal life come in 70 AD? Did life everlasting only start after Jerusalem was destroyed by the Romans? No, not at all. The New dispensation started at the death and resurrection of Christ, and is consummated at the end of the world/age when Christ returns. So this theory is quite bankrupt and void of any solid scriptural foundation. Jesus is obviously speaking not about an alleged beginning of an age in 70 AD, but about the end of the world/age at His second coming. This is when all would be fulfilled, and this is when this Generation of evil would pass and not a second before. Indeed, that is the answer to the very question that the Disciples asked in Matthew 24 of when the timing of the end and His second coming would be.
I must say with all due respect, this 70 AD doctrine is convoluted on many different levels, because there was never any Biblical foundation for making a prophecy of a new age established in 70 AD in the first place. Reformed or Biblical Theology must be established on Biblical foundations, not on inconsistent and contradictory suppositions, or upon the spurious writings of the non Christian Josephus, or upon theory that is solely based upon speculation. Of necessity these theologians would have to place another age between the cross and the end of the world in order for this theory to be true. In effect, splitting the New Testament period into diverse ages. That would be the New Testament age after the cross but before 70 AD that was clearly established by Christ's work, then and another new age that came after 70 AD, and then a third age where eternal life is instituted. Because their position on 70 AD is untenable without it, and yet it is also quite unbiblical with it.

But the question remains, what is Matthew chapter 24 really saying? When we look at the context circumspectly, we see that the overview is that God is not only warning the disciples about prophets, persecutions and false Christs, but the unfaithfulness of churches throughout time as well. The Bible isn't written only for those to whom any epistle or letter is addressed. The words are for, and apply to the universal church to consider wisely as well. The book of Thessalonians is addressed to the Thessalonians, but it was written to the universal church throughout time. The Book of Romans is written to the Romans, but is for the church throughout time. When Christ told the disciples to do this in remembrance of Him (Communion), He was not merely giving them a commandment, but instituting this practice for the whole church throughout time. This is just basic sound hermeneutics that are essential for correct understanding and sound exegesis. Likewise, when Christ said, this generation shall not pass till all these things be fulfilled, He was talking to all of the church throughout time. He was talking about the [genea] or family of evil, as the very context of wickedness illustrates. Moreover, true to His word, that same evil [genea] or family has not passed away. The children of Satan is as present today as they ever were. We will always have this wickedness, rebellion and false prophets on this earth. We will always have wars, tribulations and abominations, because we will have the generation of evil on this earth until all is fulfilled. Selah.

Let's review the context of Matthew chapter 24 for our answer of how to understand that generation that should not pass. For starters, Christ is warning the disciples (and all of us) about the enemies of Christ (and particularly, those who call themselves of Christ), and how they will thrive deceitfully as wolves in sheep's clothing, as false prophets, as false Christ's, with all lying signs and machinations. He speaks of such deception that is so clever and convincing that it would deceive even the elect (chosen) if that were possible. He tells the Apostles (and us) to watch, for these are the signs that will alert us of His soon second coming. The key to understanding what Christ meant by "this generation will not pass away until all these things take place" is the qualifications He made, the signs and the context. Christ is speaking of far future events to happen to His people. He had already prophesied to Israel during His earthly ministry that the kingdom had been taken from them (Matthew 21:43). Therefore, He cannot be talking about the nation Israel being persecuted for His sake in ad 70, but a far future time. The generation that Christ declares would not pass until He returns is the generation of evil. Note carefully that our Lord doesn't say some things might be fulfilled, but that all these things must first be fulfilled. In other words, the false prophets, nation against nation, famines, pestilence and earthquakes in divers places, false Christs, etc. Things like these people delivering Christ's servants up to be afflicted and killed and hated of all nations for Christ's sake. Were the Jews hated of all nations for Christ's sake in ad 70? Things like the gospel having been preached to the entire world for a witness, and the greatest tribulation ever in the world, and the Son of man coming on the clouds of Glory. All this must be fulfilled before this generation will pass. The only generation that shall not pass until all these things are fulfilled is the generation of evil (Matthew 12:39 ), the generation of Vipers (Matthew 12:34). A physical seed or generation will pass away and indeed has passed, and we still have all these things. But the generation of evil is the only generation that has not passed. Like the word seed is used in the Bible, the word generation is used in Scripture to describe a lineage or a family. For example, consider God’s promises to Abraham and his descendants as declared in the book of Genesis:

To be continue....

 

[Red Baker]

Genesis 17:6-9

• "And I will make thee exceeding fruitful, and I will make nations of thee, and kings shall come out of thee.
• And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.
• And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.
• And God said unto Abraham, Thou shalt keep my covenant therefore, thou, and thy seed after thee in their generations."

This is a prophesy of the Seed (Christ - Galatians 3:16) instituting a covenant generation or family. The only generation of the everlasting possession, which can only be fulfilled in Him. This is those who have the nativity of Christ, where they have a new nature. This family of God, these sons of God, these children of God, are the generation of the Seed, which is Christ. Believers are the generation of the Seed because they are in Christ, a family of God.
Psalms 22:30-31

• "A seed shall serve him; it shall be accounted to the Lord for a generation.
• They shall come, and shall declare his righteousness unto a people that shall be born, that he hath done this."

For the kingdom is the Lord's, and he is the governor among the nations. We are those ascribed or accounted to the Lord a generation or family. We are all the generation associated as the seed or generations of the righteous, through Christ's atoning work in reconciling us to God as sons or children.
Psalms 14:5

• "There were they in great fear: for God is in the generation of the righteous."

God is with the family or kindred of the righteous, as they are His children. This makes the wicked fear and detest them because of the enmity this brings. The wicked fear for God watches over His family. The truth is, the evil generation persecutes Christ when they persecute His generation or family. Because the communion of God's children with Him is that of a father and child relationship. The generation of evil has this same family or seed relationship with Satan that runs from Cain until the time of Judgment when that generation shall pass away. This because the wicked generation is speaking of a consanguinity, not a contemporary populace. This evil generation or kindred spans all of the history of the world. As long as there is the seed of the Serpent, there is this generation that shall not pass until all God's purposes are fulfilled. So then, it is clear that the word generation refers to a kindred ascribed or marked by an evil moral character. e.g.:
Psalms 12:6-8

• "The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times.
• Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever.
• The wicked walk on every side, when the vilest men are exalted."

Preserve them from what vile generation [dowr], meaning of course posterity or family? Was it only from the people of David's day? No, not at all. It is from the generation Christ spoke of that shall not pass until all is fulfilled. Preserved for ever from the generation which is stigmatized as a generation of vipers, a family of evil.
Deuteronomy 32:5

• "They have corrupted themselves, their spot is not the spot of his children: they are a perverse and crooked generation."

The children of men have forsaken their creator where they are as orphans, and have become a perverse or corrupt generation that is estranged from their God as cain was by the blood of Abel. God spoke of this generation again in Luke chapter 11.
Luke 11:50-51

• "That the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation;"
• From the blood of Abel unto the blood of Zacharias, which perished between the altar and the temple: verily I say unto you, It shall be required of this generation."

Were all those people who were standing there (the contemporary generation, or people of that time) guilty of the blood of all the Prophets from Abel to Zechariah and would be judged for those murders? God Forbid! The sons are not responsible for the sins of the father. The Apostles and the rest of those who believe who stood there won't have the blood of the Prophets required of them. But those who are part of that family/generation sure would. God declares that every man is responsible only for his own sins, not the sins of his fathers or others (Deuteronomy 24:16). So how is the blood of Abel and all of these Prophets who lived long ago required of that generation that Christ spoke of? It can only be because those who killed the Prophets, though they lived hundreds of years before Christ, were still all a part of that generation or family that Jesus condemned. All who are of the family of Satan are part of the generation that killed Abel.
Genesis 3:14-15

• "And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:
• And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel."

The two seeds speak of two distinct families. The seed or family that springs forth of Christ, and the seed or family that springs forth of the Serpent. Two distinct posterity or families. That is why Christ spoke of the wicked as the generation [gennema] of vipers. That Greek word conveys or indicates offspring or progeny. Christ was very literally calling them the spiritual children of the serpent. When Christ said that the blood of all the prophets that was shed from the foundation of the world will be required of this generation, it cannot logically, rationally or Biblically mean this particular generation of people standing there at the time. So what it does mean should be self-evident. It refers only to the generation or kin of Satan. Those of the lineage or family of Satan, whom Christ called the seed or children of the Devil. Moreover, let's be clear that this phrase I use (generation of evil) is not something that I privately dreamed up to support my personal view of a generation, it is a phrase that was divinely inspired and inerrant in its usage.
Luke 11:29

• "And when the people were gathered thick together, he began to say, This is an evil generation: they seek a sign; and there shall no sign be given it, but the sign of Jonas the prophet."

This Greek word [genea] is the exact same word from the root meaning kin. It is the same word found in Matthew chapter 24 translated generation. Was Christ saying there would no sign given to the wise men, the Apostles, or the 70 disciples that He sent out to witness two by two? Of course not. Yet they were physically part of the literal span of time of that day. But they were not part of generation that Christ was speaking of. The evil and adulterous generation (family) of the Serpent shall not receive a sign except for that of His crucifixion, as Jonas the prophet (the Scripture record) illustrated spending three days and nights in a fish. While the generation or family of Christ indeed have seen the signs (Mark 16:20, Hebrews 2:4) of their deliverance. This generation defines a continuing moral classification of people, as illustrated by many Scriptures. That should be proof enough for any logical thinking person that this generation was not referring to men of one specific time period. If we only understand the word generation to mean those living there at the time (as some insist we must), then none of the Apostles, nor anyone else in that day or that generation could escape the damnation of hell. The truth is a lot less complicated, and in total agreement will the whole of Scripture. Not one jot or tittle of it shall fail until all be fulfilled.

To be continue...

 

[Red Baker]

Luke 21:32-34

• "Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.
• Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.
• And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares."

Again, this word translated generation is [genea], same as it is in Matthew 24 often used to express family relationship or posterity. This definition is also clearly demonstrated in the Septuagint, where in passages like Genesis 43:7 declaring, "The man asked us straitly of our kindred," the word kindred is [genea]. Or in Numbers 10:30, "I will depart to my own kindred." Again, Kindred is the word [genea]. Likewise in Leviticus 20:18, "Both shall be cut off from their people." Here, the word people is [genea]. I quote the Septuagint only to demonstrate that clearly, the meaning of this word was clearly known of old, and used to denote a family relationship. Thus it cannot be scholastically alleged that it must mean the short term generation of a man’s life.
Luke 7:30-35

• But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the counsel of God against themselves, being not baptized of him.
• And the Lord said, Whereunto then shall I liken the men of this generation? and to what are they like
• They are like unto children sitting in the marketplace, and calling one to another, and saying, We have piped unto you, and ye have not danced; we have mourned to you, and ye have not wept.
• For John the Baptist came neither eating bread nor drinking wine; and ye say, He hath a devil.
• The Son of man is come eating and drinking; and ye say, Behold a gluttonous man, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners!
• But wisdom is justified of all her children."

Were the Apostles the men of this generation? If we are to understand generation the way Praeterists do, Absolutely! But they are not who Christ is talking about because He is speaking of a generation or family of evil, the children or seed of Satan. God's word boldly declares that Christians are a chosen generation. So ask yourself a simple question. How can the people living at the time of Christ be both called of God a chosen generation, and yet also be a generation that cannot escape the damnation of hell? The obvious answer is that they can't. For they are two separate generations or families that Christ spoke about. Would we say that "everyone" living there at the time must be part of the chosen generation just because someone arrogantly insists the word generation demands it? Not if we use common sense. The chosen generation is the elect family of God. It's not everyone living in that physical time period, nor was it only designating people of that time period.
1st Peter 2:9

• "But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvelous light:"

Here we see the truth of the matter. Only the true believers are the [eklektos genos] or chosen generation. Not everyone at the time that this was written, but everyone throughout time who were Predestinated to be of the family of God (Galatians 3:26-29; 1st John 3:9-10). Because we have two distinct generations coexisting in this world. A generation of evil that cannot escape the damnation of hell, and a chosen generation of God that will inherit an everlasting possession that was purchased by Christ. Both these generations or families spans eons of time.
Philippians 2:15

• "That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;"

You may not have know it but that Greek word that is translated nation, is the exact same Greek word [genea] that is translated generation in Matthew 24. It is clearly illustrating the crooked and perverse people who are the family or children of evil. This is that very same [genea] that shall not pass until all be fulfilled, and the same family the saints must live in the midst of until the end. Note that here in Philippians it is contrasted with "the sons of God," the children who shine as lights among them. The classic illustration of this contrast is found in the book of Luke, chapter 16:
Luke 16:8

• "And the lord commended the unjust steward, because he had done wisely: for the children of this world are in their generation wiser than the children of light."

Again, this is the exact same word [genea] that is found in Matthew chapter 24. It speaks of the wicked in their generation or family being wiser than the children of light. In other words, it's illustrating that in certain ways, the seed or children of God are not as smart as the seed or children of the Devil. So it's impossible that this word [genea] as used here, refers to a literal person's life span or generation as the word is understood by many. Comparing Scripture with Scripture, it would be ludicrous for anyone to insist that the word generation always meant a present or contemporary generation of people in these passages, considering all the pertinent Scriptures that use the word. Yet there are many that choose to make such untenable arguments. Nevertheless:
Number one: While some make the claim that the end of the age was in 70 AD, there is not one single Scripture that supports that conclusion, and many Scriptures that preclude it. There was instituted a new dispensation (age) when Christ died, was resurrected, and sent His holy Spirit that the church go forth to witness with power. But there was no new dispensation or age instituted years later in 70 AD.

Number two: There is nothing in Scripture that declares that the word translated generation must always be understood to mean the contemporary people or their time period, and plenty of Scriptures that precludes it (as I've clearly shown).

Number three: There is abundant proof texts in Scripture that the entire New Testament period was (and still is) the end times, the last days, and the last age, indicating that there would not be any other age following this one. Except of course, "the age to come," which is Christ's return and consummation of eternal life. That is when all will be fulfilled as required by Matthew 24, and indeed by all of Scripture. That is when this evil generation shall finally pass away and when the kingdom will be delivered up to the father. This will occur at 'The last Day.'

Revelation 6:11

• "And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled."

When will all be fulfilled? It is when this evil generation is no longer ruling with their prince. In other words, when Christ returns. For there is this age, the age to come, and no age in between. That's the whole purpose of God using the term "last days" to signify that there are no more days after these New Testament days. There are no more dispensations. It is self evident that contrary to interpretive license, the age of the last days was instituted by the death and resurrection of Christ, not in 70 AD. No matter what any theologian (Reformed or otherwise) may postulate, Scripture must interpret Scripture. And the age to come is at the end of this age when Christ returns. The generation that will not pass till all be fulfilled is the generation that the entire chapter of Matthew 24 so vividly warned the church against. In context, it was the coming false prophets, false teachers, deceivers, false Christs, abominations, great tribulation, and all that this evil family would bring forth against Christ. Though it will not pass until Christ's return, yet the kingdom ultimately triumphs. It is then, and only then, that 'all' will be fulfilled as required by Christ's prophesy. Then and only then will this evil and adulterous generation/family pass. Selah!

Peace,​

​

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Copyright 2000 Tony Warren

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Created 8/5/00 / Last Modified 6/27/17

 

[3 Resurrections]

Generation here means a kind of person, for it lacks demonstrative pronouns or other modifiers for a period of time. It is not a prophecy of the future, when children would be rebellious, for all ages have such sinners.

This context of Proverbs 30:11-14 is not describing a type but a certain period of time in which these prevailing problems would notably arise. The Hebrew word for "generation here is "dor" describing a particular time period, as from one generation leading to another generation.

This bears out in the NT, when Christ predicted in Luke 12:52-56 that "from henceforth" in time after He had come on earth that there would be family divisions because of Him (a father divided against son, mother against daughter, etc.). This is what Agur had predicted of those coming days with a particular generation of time characterized as cursing their father and not blessing their mother.

Paul in 2 Timothy 3:1-6 duplicated Agur's prophecy of that particular first-century generation of time in the last days when "perilous times" would produce a laundry list of issues such as men being "lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good, traitors, heady, high-minded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God, having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof..." This was typical of those last days during Christ's own generation when wicked men and seducers got into "worse and worse" condition toward its ending point which culminated in the Great Tribulation period of AD 66-70.

Agur was most definitely giving a prophecy of the first-century generation of time, because Peter said on the day of Pentecost that every prophet which had ever written had spoken or written something about the last days in which Peter was then sitting (Acts 3:24).

 

[Arial]

This context of Proverbs 30:11-14 is not describing a type but a certain period of time in which these prevailing problems would notably arise. The Hebrew word for "generation here is "dor" describing a particular time period, as from one generation leading to another generation.

The book of Proverbs is not prophecy and should never be read as such. It is wisdom literature.

 

[3 Resurrections]

The book of Proverbs is not prophecy and should never be read as such. It is wisdom literature.

Agur identified himself as a prophet. Proverbs 30:1. "The words of Agur the son of Jakeh, even the prophecy: the man spake unto Ithiel, even unto Ithiel and Ucal."

Agur wrote in prophecy about the Son of God ascending to heaven and descending in Proverbs 30:4.

 

[Red Baker]

This context of Proverbs 30:11-14 is not describing a type but a certain period of time in which these prevailing problems would notably arise. The Hebrew word for "generation here is "dor" describing a particular time period, as from one generation leading to another generation.

This bears out in the NT, when Christ predicted in Luke 12:52-56 that "from henceforth" in time after He had come on earth that there would be family divisions because of Him (a father divided against son, mother against daughter, etc.). This is what Agur had predicted of those coming days with a particular generation of time characterized as cursing their father and not blessing their mother.

Paul in 2 Timothy 3:1-6 duplicated Agur's prophecy of that particular first-century generation of time in the last days when "perilous times" would produce a laundry list of issues such as men being "lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good, traitors, heady, high-minded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God, having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof..." This was typical of those last days during Christ's own generation when wicked men and seducers got into "worse and worse" condition toward its ending point which culminated in the Great Tribulation period of AD 66-70.

Agur was most definitely giving a prophecy of the first-century generation of time, because Peter said on the day of Pentecost that every prophet which had ever written had spoken or written something about the last days in which Peter was then sitting (Acts 3:24).

3 Resurrections you are now fallen into the sinful path of corrupting scripture~I'll come back after a doctor's appointment and address this, even though Arial pointed out to you a very good point. You are desperate trying to uphold your unscriptural false doctrine of 70 A.D theory. .

 

[Arial]

Agur identified himself as a prophet. Proverbs 30:1. "The words of Agur the son of Jakeh, even the prophecy: the man spake unto Ithiel, even unto Ithiel and Ucal."

Agur wrote in prophecy about the Son of God ascending to heaven and descending in Proverbs 30:4.

Not to go off track of the thread, but you are using something as prophecy that is not prophecy (foretelling) to support your argument. Doing such a thing will never support an argument. And prophecy is not always foretelling but speaking the things that are true.

Most translations to not even use the word prophecy because the context shows it is not prophecy (foretelling.) It is either translated oracle, his utterance, pronouncement. It contains prayer, lament, and wisdom for living.

But if you desire to insist that you are right in this, go ahead, but it is a misuse of the Bible, not correctly handling the word of God, and will not support your claim, because you are not right. Proverbs is not prophecy.

 

[3 Resurrections]

3 Resurrections you are now fallen into the sinful path of corrupting scripture~

Red, you cannot accuse someone of corrupting scripture when you yourself refuse to consider how certain words in the original languages are to be translated. It was not a sin for the KJV translators to consider how words in the original languages were translated, so neither should it be a sin for me to refer to the original languages and the sense in which they are to be understood. Just because my understanding of the scripture does not meet with your agreement does not mean it is corrupt. That puts your own understanding as the benchmark of all interpretation. Do you really want to go there?

Your interpretation of "generation" wants to say it ALWAYS refers to a type and never to a certain segment of time. To do that, you must erase all of the uses of the word "generation" which cannot possibly refer to a type. Examples such as the "fourteen generations" in Matthew 1:17 from point A to point B, the references that use the phrase "from generation to generation", and so on which speak of the passage of time for a generation.

Not to go off track of the thread, but you are using something as prophecy that is not prophecy (foretelling) to support your argument. Doing such a thing will never support an argument. And prophecy is not always foretelling but speaking the things that are true.

Certainly not all prophecy is exclusively foretelling events. The sense of the Greek word itself tells us that. But Agur was most definitely speaking of a future-to-him named Son of God who would ascend up into heaven and descend in Proverbs 30:4. This was prophetic of what Christ Jesus would do.

What Peter said on the day of Pentecost in Acts 3:24 was that every prophet since Samuel - every one who had spoken - had foretold something about those last days in which Peter was living. That included Agur, who spoke prophecy: some general truths as well as foretelling of events future to him concerning Christ and the last days. If Agur spoke about a certain generation (dor) which would be characterized by family division with children not giving honor to parents, those who were self-righteousness even though they were filthy, who spoke with violence and cruelty to the poor and needy, I am not out of bounds to look for texts in the NT which describe the prevalence and increase of those issues in the first century times. The NT texts are there in agreement with Agur's words, with Christ predicting those very things that would arise for the ones He was addressing about their own first-century generation.

 

[Arial]

Certainly not all prophecy is exclusively foretelling events. The sense of the Greek word itself tells us that. But Agur was most definitely speaking of a future-to-him named Son of God who would ascend up into heaven and descend in Proverbs 30:4. This was prophetic of what Christ Jesus would do.

Put it into context with the immediately surrounding words, and the full context of the proverb.





30 The words of Agur son of Jakeh. The oracle.[a]

The man declares, I am weary, O God;
I am weary, O God, and worn out.[b]
2 Surely I am too stupid to be a man.
I have not the understanding of a man.
3 I have not learned wisdom,
nor have I knowledge of the Holy One.
4 Who has ascended to heaven and come down?
Who has gathered the wind in his fists?
Who has wrapped up the waters in a garment?
Who has established all the ends of the earth?
What is his name, and what is his son's name?
Surely you know!

Just because it asks the question "who has ascended to heaven and come down?" and asks what is his name and what is his son's name, does not mean it is speaking of Jesus. Jesus did not ascend and then come down. He came down and then ascended. He is simply saying that how is a man to comprehend the Holy One. It is more akin to Job 28 and Job 38:1-40:2. It is a recognition of the mystery of the being and ways of God. When you treat it as prophecy you completely divorce it from it meaning and instruction. As you have shown yourself by saying "generation" in this Proverb speaks prophetically of a specific time period.

 

[3 Resurrections]

When you treat it as prophecy you completely divorce it from it meaning and instruction. As you have shown yourself by saying "generation" in this Proverb speaks prophetically of a specific time period.

I would suggest that you check the commentaries on this set of verses of Agur's prophecy. I am not alone in interpreting this as the Messiah's own first-century generation which would be characterized by the prevalence of these issues. The New Testament scriptures also are in sync with these issues being an increasing problem in those days leading up to the Great Tribulation and its "days of vengeance".

And as I have already written twice, Peter's statement in Acts 3:24 entitles us to look at some of this Agur prophecy as foretelling events in the "last days" of the first century Peter was living in.

Just because it asks the question "who has ascended to heaven and come down?" and asks what is his name and what is his son's name, does not mean it is speaking of Jesus. Jesus did not ascend and then come down. He came down and then ascended.

God's Son having a name is speaking of the Son who would be given the name Jesus, with Agur prophetically foretelling about that Son. The prophet doesn't prioritize any order in the ascending and descending as to which comes first. And actually, Christ ascended to heaven on his resurrection day (as He told Mary He was doing that morning), then descended to earth again for 40 days, then ascended a second time in Acts 1. So if you are concerned with being particular on this point, Agur is in correct chronological order, depending on which point of Christ's activities you are looking at.

 

[Arial]

And as I have already written twice, Peter's statement in Acts 3:24 entitles us to look at some of this Agur prophecy as foretelling events in the "last days" of the first century Peter was living in.

The things in Prov 30 have always been true "under the sun" and always will be true. Why are you taking a small portion of Agur's oracles and leaving out the rest. Do you understand how to interpret wisdom literature and poetry---for it is also poetry? Do you understand the systematic system used in Prob 30 of contrasts, a Hebrew method, and its help in interpretation?

Acts 3:24 Proclaimed what days? Every thing that would happen in the last days of the first century? Or proclaimed the coming of the Messiah. ANd Agur does not proclaim himself to be a prophet. You are reading that into it by the translation of the KJV. Do you have any other references to him being a prophet? If a prophet (one holding the God appointed office of prophet) is what was meant, every other translation would not have failed to retain the KJV translation of "prophet." Do you suppose that is because there was not supporting evidence that he was a prophet?

But there is no reason to continue this conversation. It is off topic and you will not consider that you are wrong, even given ample evidence. You have vested too much into it.

 

[3 Resurrections]

Acts 3:24 Proclaimed what days? Every thing that would happen in the last days of the first century? Or proclaimed the coming of the Messiah.

All the prophets who ever spoke or wrote had at least something to say concerning those days in which Peter was living. That included the coming of the Messiah ("who hath in these last days spoken unto us by His Son...") and the early church years that followed Christ's establishment of the New Covenant, up until the "last hour" which 1 John 4:7 said the believers were then facing, and "the end of all things" which 1 Peter 4:7 said was "at hand" in those first-century days.

Those prophets Peter said had "inquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you: Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow." (1 Peter 1:10-11). It was revealed to those prophets that their prophesies applied to the time of the disciples, and not themselves, even though many were not given the exact timing those events would occur which they had foretold.

Agur does not proclaim himself to be a prophet. You are reading that into it by the translation of the KJV.

Since Agur claimed to be speaking a prophecy, that makes him a prophet. This is retained in the canon of scripture, so I believe it. Agur wrote of other basic truths, applicable to all generations, but he too, as all the other prophets who spoke, had at least something to say about the first-century days.

The topic is identifying when the tribulation period was to occur. Christ said the entire list of tribulations given in Luke 21 was "about to come to pass", and before His own generation had passed away. Red does not believe that the word "generation" ever refers to a timespan, but always to a type or kind of person. He is attempting to use Agur's words to prove that. The Hebrew word "dor" for "generation" in Proverbs 30:11-14 doesn't refer to a type or kind of person, but to those dwelling together in a set time period.

 

[Red Baker]

This context of Proverbs 30:11-14 is not describing a type but a certain period of time in which these prevailing problems would notably arise. The Hebrew word for "generation here is "dor" describing a particular time period, as from one generation leading to another generation.

It absolutely is ~ I'm kinda surprised that you will attempt to go at great length to prove otherwise just to protect a system you have came to accept. In order to accept your way of thinking concerning these four verses one would need to remind the Holy Ghost he has a better way of teaching than He does. Since you and others believe the verse should read like this:

Proverbs 30-11-15~"There's coming a generation that will curse their fathers and will not bless their mothers. There's coming a generation that are pure in their own eyes, yet are not washed from their own filthiness. There's coming a generation, O how lofty are their eyes! and their eyelids are lifted up. There's coming a generation, whose teeth are as swords, and their jaw teeth as knives, to devour the poor from of the earth, and the needy form among men." ( The Expositor Bible Study of the Preterist of 2023 A.D. )

What are Proverbs? ~. The English word, according to The Oxford English Dictionary, means the following:

1. A short pithy saying in common and recognized use; a concise sentence, often metaphorical or alliterative in form, which is held to express some truth ascertained by experience or observation and familiar to all; an adage, a wise saw.

2. A common word or phrase of contempt or reproach, a byword.

3. An oracular or enigmatical saying that requires interpretation; an allegory, a parable.

The Bible uses the word “proverb” in all three ways, and it contains all three types of proverbs. Solomon’s book of Proverbs contains all three kinds as well.

Proverbs can be difficult to understand. As the definitions show, they are often metaphorical, which means they use words figuratively, not literally. And they are often enigmatical, which means they were composed intentionally with obscure metaphors or other figures of speech to challenge the reader to discover their hidden practical lessons of life and how to be victorious over life. They can be obscure and perplexing by design, which gives them unique appeal, beauty, and force.

Solomon in his introduction describes proverbs as needing interpretation and being the dark sayings of wise men (Pr 1:6). You may almost see him admitting definitions one and three above, for metaphors need interpretation and enigmas are truly dark sayings. His proverbs are not for speed-reading or light reading. They are for careful and slow reading, with much thought on the lesson or lessons and how to apply the wisdom to your life.

These proverbs provide short, valuable, and challenging rules for living life successfully, overcoming life by the wisdom of God. You will learn the fastest way to honor and riches and be saved from the pitfalls that trap others. What an exciting literary form! What an interesting way of communicating truth! And all by the Divine inspiration of the LORD Jehovah!

God inspired Solomon to write many proverbs, by which he taught the people practical knowledge and set out acceptable words, even words of truth (Eccl 12:9-11). Of a total of three thousand proverbs (I Kgs 4:32), the best five hundred are here. What a collection! You will learn truth and wisdom to cover most areas of our life. Honor, long life, peace, prosperity, and safety are right before you. Your part is simply to read, learn, and do.

We go to the Prophets for our eschatology understanding, to Proverbs and Ecclesiastes for wisdom, knowledge and understanding on how to be wise and godly in this world.

I'm coming back to add more.

 

[Red Baker]

Your interpretation of "generation" wants to say it ALWAYS refers to a type and never to a certain segment of time.

3 Resurrections that's not necessarily true, in fact, it is not true.

I'll let the scriptures and its context and the flow of both the scriptures and context interpret the usage of the word generation. That being said, whenever I find the two words "this generation" my spiritual ears perk up and I carefully consider what they are saying to me.

Later, I'm heading toward your house, or very close to it. I have an appointment.

 

[Mr GLee]

Satan is the "father of" of all wickedness~man would not had been as wicked as they are today without Satan, that much we all must admit~except those cults that are following the Sadducees doctrine of rejecting angles and spirits.

I would offer .The Pharisees with Sadducees put aside their differences. The Sadducees with Pharisees both venerated a succession a legion of dead fathers as patron saints.

Sadducees did not believe in another invisible creation that some call angels and no man will rise, The Pharisees believed in both angels not seen and fathers that are no longer here. A mixture of invisible gods.

It begs a question ? How would one know which is a angel and which one a patrons saint? I know idol images are available for the patron saints from what I heard years back (3500 and rising ) Angels invisible ? How could they put face on the legion when it comes up like King Saul ?

Acts 23:8 For the Sadducees say that there is no resurrection, neither angel, nor spirit: but the Pharisees confess both.

Sadducees are atheist in thier approach. Nothing beyond what the eyes see. God calls them fools

Pharisees just the opposite continuing to believe in things that were seen (patron saints) without them no belief .

 

[3 Resurrections]

I'll let the scriptures and its context and the flow of both the scriptures and context interpret the usage of the word generation

That's good that you can also confirm that there is more than just one interpretation of the word "generation". From the flow of your texts above, it was sounding as if you didn't. But unfortunately, you can't bring yourself to admit that the different Greek or Hebrew words convey with more precision the different senses in which "generation" is to be understood. The KJV translators played it safe by translating them all with the same generic word, which tends to blur the understanding.

Also unfortunately, the phrase "this generation" seems to be a trigger for you as being associated in your mind with that consummate wolf in sheep's clothing with whom you exchanged a debate on this very theme in the past. I don't care what that renegade pastor thought on this subject one way or the other. When I look at scripture, it doesn't matter to me if an insane, evil person agrees with a certain point found in its pages or not. This is immaterial to the truth of a matter. If it took 50 pages of your efforts to define "this generation" for him, as you said, that tells me something is being stretched in an attempt to fit a presupposition.

 

[Red Baker]

That's good that you can also confirm that there is more than just one interpretation of the word "generation". From the flow of your texts above, it was sounding as if you didn't. But unfortunately, you can't bring yourself to admit that the different Greek or Hebrew words convey with more precision the different senses in which "generation" is to be understood. The KJV translators played it safe by translating them all with the same generic word, which tends to blur the understanding.

Also unfortunately, the phrase "this generation" seems to be a trigger for you as being associated in your mind with that consummate wolf in sheep's clothing with whom you exchanged a debate on this very theme in the past. I don't care what that renegade pastor thought on this subject one way or the other. When I look at scripture, it doesn't matter to me if an insane, evil person agrees with a certain point found in its pages or not. This is immaterial to the truth of a matter. If it took 50 pages of your efforts to define "this generation" for him, as you said, that tells me something is being stretched in an attempt to fit a presupposition.

He said to me, I'll not be moved without overwhelming biblical evidence, while he himself used extra biblical information to support his 70 A.D. theory~and theory it is, for it is impossible for any godly student, or, godly seeker of the truth, to even come up with 70 A. D. as being important in bible prophecy, impossible....without hearing this from outside sources, or from men who did not see the truth, but sought ways of understanding such scriptures as Matthew 24, etc. from books like Josephus' Wars of the Jews ~ and from there, piece together a system that sound reasonable to them, and went with it.

So, when he said that, I gave him all that he said and a lot more. I'm going to look for those pages I sent to JRC, later today, or tomorrow.

Also unfortunately, the phrase "this generation" seems to be a trigger for you as being associated in your mind with that consummate wolf in sheep's clothing with whom you exchanged a debate on this very theme in the past.

3 Resurrections, I do not consider men as wolves who disagree with me on this subject, far from it ~ but I will say, they have not as of yet arrived at the truth as it is in Jesus Christ. It took me almost twenty five years to see this truth half of my Christian life. God forbid that I would judge a person's salvation from sin and condemnation, over certain doctrines, some I might, most I will not.