What is grace?

[donadams]

But you right it is christ who acts thru His apostolic church
Vicar of Christ is about Christ acting thru his apostles

Christ reconciles the world to Himself thru his apostolic church

Forgives sins thru His apostolic church! Jn 15:5 eph 5:24
2 Corinthians 5:18

And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; (the apostles)

Christ and His church are one! Acts 9:4, eph 5:32

Thanks

 

[donadams]

To which man would you like to give glory?

All those in the communion of saints! Especially the canonized saints and the martyrs!

 

[donadams]

In Romans 7:22-23, Paul said that he delighted in obeying the Law of God, but contrasted that with the law of sin that held him captive. In Romans 7:6, it speaks about being released from a law that held us captive, so he was speaking about being released from the law of sin, not the Law of God. It would be absurd to interpret that as referring to the Law of God as if Paul delighted in being held captive or as if he wanted to be released from a law that he delighted in obeying.

Under grace not law!

Are you also requiring circumcision and sabbath?

 

[Josheb]

But He does refer to a past tense event which could only be redemption

Redemption:
The redemption was accomplished by Christ with no participation on our part. All mankind is redeemed.
Lk 2:11 Jn 1:29 rm 5:8 1 pet 1:21-23


Justification:
then if we accept His redemption we are justified, born again by faith and baptism. Mk 16:16 Jn 3:5 acts 2:38 8:36 Titus 3:5 1 pet 3:21

Sanctification:
Members of Christ and his church by grace we practice good works (prayer, alms, fasting, virtues charity, suffering other sacraments etc. until death. Phil 1:29

At the hour of death separation from the grace of God by apostasy / rejection of Christ or failing to repent of serious sin a man is lost in damnation! Or

Salvation:
Is for those who are faithful and die in the grace of God united to Christ and in his saints at death enter into eternal salvation! Mk 13:13 Matt 24:13

Titus 2:14
Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, (redemption) and purify unto himself a peculiar people, (justification / baptism notice purify / wash) Jn 3:5 zealous of good works. (Sanctification) Matt 24:13 endures to the end Shall be saved.
(Salvation)

Okay. Here's the problem as I read it. To begin with there is no "but..." What I posted is correct and it is inappropriate to move on as if it is not correct and without acknowledging the veracity of that content. It communicated, "Yeah, whatever, I don't care what was posted because I have my own agenda," so if that is not the intent then please acknowledge the facts in evidence. More circumspectly, we were discussing one specific, specified, small portion of scripture and something was brought up that is alluded to at the beginning of the larger narrative but nowhere else in the rest of the letter, and now a pile of selectively proof-texted verses are posted eisegetically. There's not a single word in Post 99 that works outward from the Ephesians 2:5-10 exegetically. Not one.


Why would I collaborate with that?


Acknowledge the facts:

• Redemption is spoken of only at the beginning of the preceding chapter, in the introduction of the letter.
• A flow of information exists in the narrative moving away from the specific element of redemption to the larger matter of salvation as a whole, and then on to other matters in subsequent chapters.
• Justification is nowhere mentioned; the term is absent from the entire epistle.
• Redemption and justification are constituent elements of salvation; not identical to, or synonymous with salvation.
• Paul used the word "saved," and Paul did not use the words "redemption" or "justification" in the specified verses.
• Paul expounded on those smaller, incremental aspects of salvation elsewhere.
• A person is redeemed by Jesus.
• Jesus is the first cause of justification (not faith).
• Both redemption and justification exist by grace.

If that is correct, then that is where the collaboration should be.

 

[Soyeong]

Under grace not law!

Are you also requiring circumcision and sabbath?

You can keep quoting verses that you have interpreted as speaking against obeying what God has commanded, but you should be quicker to conclude that you must have misinterpreted those verses than to think that it makes perfect sense to interpret the Bible as speaking against obeying God.

In Romans 6:14, Paul described the law that we are not under as being a law where sin had dominion over us, which does not describe the Law of God, which is a law where holiness, righteousness, and goodness have dominion over us (Romans 7:12), but rather it is the law of sin where sin had dominion over us. In Romans 6:15, being under grace does not mean that we are permitted to sin, and sin is the transgression of the Law of God's (1 John 3:4), so we are still under it and obligated to refrain from doing what it reveals to be sin. In Psalms 119:29, he wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey His law, so that is what it means to be under grace.

Furthermore, everything else in Romans 6 speaks in favor of obedience to the Law of God and against sin. For example, in Romans 6:19-23, we are no longer to present ourselves as slaves to impurity, lawlessness, and sin, but are now to present ourselves as slaves to God and to righteousness leading to sanctification, and the goal of sanctification is eternal life in Christ, which is the gift of God. So walked in obedience to God's law is the content of His gift of eternal life in Christ, which is why those who are in Christ are obligated to walk in the same way he walked (1 John 2:6), and why Jesus said that the way to enter eternal life is by obeying God's law (Matthew 19:17, Luke 10:25-28).

It is not me who requires us to obey God, but rather it is God's sovereignty that does that.

 

[donadams]

Yes I agree

Okay. Here's the problem as I read it. To begin with there is no "but..." What I posted is correct and it is inappropriate to move on as if it is not correct and without acknowledging the veracity of that content. It communicated, "Yeah, whatever, I don't care what was posted because I have my own agenda," so if that is not the intent then please acknowledge the facts in evidence. More circumspectly, we were discussing one specific, specified, small portion of scripture and something was brought up that is alluded to at the beginning of the larger narrative but nowhere else in the rest of the letter, and now a pile of selectively proof-texted verses are posted eisegetically. There's not a single word in Post 99 that works outward from the Ephesians 2:5-10 exegetically. Not one.


Why would I collaborate with that?


Acknowledge the facts:

• Redemption is spoken of only at the beginning of the preceding chapter, in the introduction of the letter.
• A flow of information exists in the narrative moving away from the specific element of redemption to the larger matter of salvation as a whole, and then on to other matters in subsequent chapters.
• Justification is nowhere mentioned; the term is absent from the entire epistle.
• Redemption and justification are constituent elements of salvation; not identical to, or synonymous with salvation.
• Paul used the word "saved," and Paul did not use the words "redemption" or "justification" in the specified verses.
• Paul expounded on those smaller, incremental aspects of salvation elsewhere.
• A person is redeemed by Jesus.
• Jesus is the first cause of justification (not faith).
• Both redemption and justification exist by grace.

If that is correct, then that is where the collaboration should be.

Ok

 

[donadams]

You can keep quoting verses that you have interpreted as speaking against obeying what God has commanded, but you should be quicker to conclude that you must have misinterpreted those verses than to think that it makes perfect sense to interpret the Bible as speaking against obeying God.

In Romans 6:14, Paul described the law that we are not under as being a law where sin had dominion over us, which does not describe the Law of God, which is a law where holiness, righteousness, and goodness have dominion over us (Romans 7:12), but rather it is the law of sin where sin had dominion over us. In Romans 6:15, being under grace does not mean that we are permitted to sin, and sin is the transgression of the Law of God's (1 John 3:4), so we are still under it and obligated to refrain from doing what it reveals to be sin. In Psalms 119:29, he wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey His law, so that is what it means to be under grace.

Furthermore, everything else in Romans 6 speaks in favor of obedience to the Law of God and against sin. For example, in Romans 6:19-23, we are no longer to present ourselves as slaves to impurity, lawlessness, and sin, but are now to present ourselves as slaves to God and to righteousness leading to sanctification, and the goal of sanctification is eternal life in Christ, which is the gift of God. So walked in obedience to God's law is the content of His gift of eternal life in Christ, which is why those who are in Christ are obligated to walk in the same way he walked (1 John 2:6), and why Jesus said that the way to enter eternal life is by obeying God's law (Matthew 19:17, Luke 10:25-28).

It is not me who requires us to obey God, but rather it is God's sovereignty that does that.

Yes obey God and Christ and His law of love not the mosaic covenant
Thanks

 

[Soyeong]

Yes obey God and Christ and His law of love not the mosaic covenant
Thanks

I have not suggested that we should be under the Mosaic Covenant, but rather I have been speaking about how to live under the New Covenant, which still involves following the Mosaic Law (Jeremiah 31:33). In Matthew 22:36-40, Jesus summarized the Mosaic Law as being about how to love God and our neighbor, so it is his law of love.

 

[donadams]

I have not suggested that we should be under the Mosaic Covenant, but rather I have been speaking about how to live under the New Covenant, which still involves following the Mosaic Law (Jeremiah 31:33). In Matthew 22:36-40, Jesus summarized the Mosaic Law as being about how to love God and our neighbor, so it is his law of love.

That’s true!

 

[donadams]

That’s true!

Christ reformed the old covenant into the new covenant! Heb 9:10 so there are many similarities

 

[prism]

All those in the communion of saints! Especially the canonized saints and the martyrs!

Really? Do you think they would receive the glory (unlike some men)?

 

[Soyeong]

NT.

 

[Soyeong]

Christ reformed the old covenant into the new covenant! Heb 9:10 so there are many similarities

The Mosaic Covenant is eternal (Exodus 31:14-17, Leviticus 24:8), so the only way that it can be replaced by the New Covenant is if the New Covenant does everything that the Mosaic Covenant does plus more, which is what it means to make something obsolete (Hebrews 8:13). This is why the New Covenant still involves following the Mosaic Law (Hebrews 8:10) plus it is based on better promises and has a superior mediator (Hebrews 8:6).

 

[donadams]

Really? Do you think they would receive the glory (unlike some men)?

Every degree of grace on earth has a corresponding degree of glory in heaven

 

[donadams]

The Mosaic Covenant is eternal (Exodus 31:14-17, Leviticus 24:8), so the only way that it can be replaced by the New Covenant is if the New Covenant does everything that the Mosaic Covenant does plus more, which is what it means to make something obsolete (Hebrews 8:13). This is why the New Covenant still involves following the Mosaic Law (Hebrews 8:10) plus it is based on better promises and has a superior mediator (Hebrews 8:6).

What about a
Temple
Altar
Sacrifice
Priesthood
Ark
Golden censor
Etc.?

 

[prism]

Every degree of grace on earth has a corresponding degree of glory in heaven

That really did not answer my question (mere human philosophy). Here is more the reason I asked...

Revelation 5:9-10,12-13
And they sang a new song: “Worthy are You to take the scroll and open its seals, because You were slain, and by Your blood You purchased for God those from every tribe and tongue and people and nation. [10] You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to serve our God, and they will reign upon the earth.” [12] In a loud voice they were saying: “Worthy is the Lamb, who was slain, to receive power and riches and wisdom and strength and honor and glory and blessing!” [13] And I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and in the sea, and all that is in them, saying: “To Him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be praise and honor and glory and power forever and ever!”

 

[donadams]

And to those who “do good”!

 

[Soyeong]

What about a
Temple
Altar
Sacrifice
Priesthood
Ark
Golden censor
Etc.?

They are part of the New Covenant also (Jeremiah 31:33).

 

[donadams]

They are part of the New Covenant also (Jeremiah 31:33).

I agree they are indeed

 

[Mr GLee]

But you right it is christ who acts thru His apostolic church
Vicar of Christ is about Christ acting thru his apostles

Christ reconciles the world to Himself thru his apostolic church

Forgives sins thru His apostolic church! Jn 15:5 eph 5:24
2 Corinthians 5:18

And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; (the apostles)

Christ and His church are one! Acts 9:4, eph 5:32

Thanks

Grace comes as a labor of Christ love or called a work of his faithfulness working in us .

It is not not getting wet as a baby with what is called it Holy H20 as that in which Catholics must call the "born again fountain of youth". . new birth .

H20 which points to the doctrines of God inspired from above come down not inspired from Rome. as if His Spirit unseen was H20 seen .

H20 evaporates and returns to heaven where it came from. . it comes down and produces green things of the living .

Deuteronomy 32King James Version Give ear, O ye heavens, and I will speak; and hear, O earth, the words of my mouth.
2 My doctrine shall drop as the rain, my speech shall distil as the dew, as the small rain upon the tender herb, and as the showers upon the grass:

Changing eternal God into water (H20)a rudiment of this world is not a doctrine of sola scriptura.

It comes from the Catholic book of the laws of venerable dying sinners called fathers (CCC) oral traditions of dying mankind