The Eternal Purpose of Creation !

[brightfame52]

Because this world was made for a Redemptive Purpose in Christ Jesus, which is also The Eternal Purpose here Eph 3:11

11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:

All things in time therefore made in light of that Purpose Col 1:16

16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

This Purpose made sin and death necessary, God therefore Purposed these things to occur at the Creation of adam, that those whom Christ would redeem be by nature ,born in captivity to sin, in bondage to devil, and under the curse of the Law.

This is True because Christ's death for those He died for, Redemptive, It redeems them from the curse of the Law Gal 3:13

13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

This was a precious work for God Ps 49:8

For the redemption of their soul is precious, and it ceaseth for ever )

1 Pet 18-20

18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;

19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

We are all born by nature in captivity to the devil ! 2 Tim 2:26

26 And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.



We are all born by nature as transgressors of God's Law Isa 48:8

Yea, thou heardest not; yea, thou knewest not; yea, from that time that thine ear was not opened: for I knew that thou wouldest deal very treacherously, and wast called a transgressor from the womb.

God Created the world so that Christ would Glorify Him in the defeat of these enemies ! 4

 

[brightfame52]

Is God the Author of Sin ?

Yes, most certainly He is, However that's not to say He is the doer of sin Himself, He did not Himself commit sin [which is impossible since He can never transgress any law] But He is the Author and Creator of the being or beings that do and did commit sin or acts of sin. Both the sin of Adam, and Lucifer were determined by God for them to do. Did God foresee them sinning ? Yes He did, since He determined they do. This is not God's permissive will, but a predetermined counsel, for it is written Rom 8:20

20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, 4

 

[Josheb]

Is God the Author of Sin ?

Yes, most certainly He is, However that's not to say He is the doer of sin Himself, He did not Himself commit sin [which is impossible since He can never transgress any law] But He is the Author and Creator of the being or beings that do and did commit sin or acts of sin. Both the sin of Adam, and Lucifer were determined by God for them to do. Did God foresee them sinning ? Yes He did, since He determined they do. This is not God's permissive will, but a predetermined counsel, for it is written Rom 8:20

20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, 4

That post is self-contradictory. The word "author" means "an originator or creator of something." This post says God created sin but didn't do it Himself. Romans 8:20 is a post-Genesis 3:6 statement. God did not make Adam subject to vanity prior to Genesis 3:6. Bad exegesis.

 

[brightfame52]

That post is self-contradictory. The word "author" means "an originator or creator of something." This post says God created sin but didn't do it Himself. Romans 8:20 is a post-Genesis 3:6 statement. God did not make Adam subject to vanity prior to Genesis 3:6. Bad exegesis.

You entitled to disagree. Adam did exactly what Gods decree caused him to do. Adam had no choice not to sin and bring about the devastating consequences.

 

[Josheb]

You entitled to disagree.

And I did. You have liberty (not entitlement) to tell me of my entitlements but it's unnecessary, useless, and irrelevant for you (or anyone else) to do so.

Adam did exactly what Gods decree caused him to do.

Show me where scripture states God decreeing, "I decree you to sin Adam," or "I decree Adam sin."

Adam had no choice not to sin and bring about the devastating consequences.

I disagree. According to you, I am entitled to do so. Thus far you've proven incapable of discussing any point I have broached and most of this thread is you posting to yourself, which you are "entitled" to do. Re-read Post 44. Ask yourself, "Did I actually address the content of Post 43?" Does anything in Post 44 specifically address the contradiction cited in Post 43? How do I explain to Josheb how God can create sin but not do it Himself? How do I, @brightfame52, reconcile the fact the word "author" means to originate or create while also saying God did not originate or create sin Himself?

How do I, @brightfame52, do that without ever mentioning another poster?

Because neither I, nor my entitlements are the subject of this discussion.

At the beginning of this thread I asked for a statement of God's purpose, and the request was refused (even though I am entitled to ask), claiming it had already been done when it wasn't. Now, three pages of posts later, it's been observed God authoring something - His originating or creating it - without doing it himself - is a contradiction and the first response was to tell me about my entitlement and repeat the problem to be solved. You are entitled not to make any sense but it is my hope you can and will either 1) provide a reasonable and rational explanation for what you believe or 2) reason with me through the scriptures to arrive at a mutual consensus with the whole of scripture, even if it means one of us has to change our previously held position.

You are entitled to do either, btw.

 

[brightfame52]

And I did. You have liberty (not entitlement) to tell me of my entitlements but it's unnecessary, useless, and irrelevant for you (or anyone else) to do so.

Show me where scripture states God decreeing, "I decree you to sin Adam," or "I decree Adam sin."

I disagree. According to you, I am entitled to do so. Thus far you've proven incapable of discussing any point I have broached and most of this thread is you posting to yourself, which you are "entitled" to do. Re-read Post 44. Ask yourself, "Did I actually address the content of Post 43?" Does anything in Post 44 specifically address the contradiction cited in Post 43? How do I explain to Josheb how God can create sin but not do it Himself? How do I, @brightfame52, reconcile the fact the word "author" means to originate or create while also saying God did not originate or create sin Himself?

How do I, @brightfame52, do that without ever mentioning another poster?

Because neither I, nor my entitlements are the subject of this discussion.

At the beginning of this thread I asked for a statement of God's purpose, and the request was refused (even though I am entitled to ask), claiming it had already been done when it wasn't. Now, three pages of posts later, it's been observed God authoring something - His originating or creating it - without doing it himself - is a contradiction and the first response was to tell me about my entitlement and repeat the problem to be solved. You are entitled not to make any sense but it is my hope you can and will either 1) provide a reasonable and rational explanation for what you believe or 2) reason with me through the scriptures to arrive at a mutual consensus with the whole of scripture, even if it means one of us has to change our previously held position.

You are entitled to do either, btw.

Okay, you did disagree, and you see what I believe to be the truth and why. Start reading from my op

 

[Josheb]

Okay, you did disagree, and you see what I believe to be the truth and why.

Yes, and the contradiction remains unaddressed and unresolved. Do you see it? I mean do you see that a contradiction exists? It might be a simple mistake of wording, but I won't know that, you/we won't realize that unless and until it is discussed. Can you see that a contradiction exists when saying God authored/originated/created sin but did not do so Himself?

Start reading from my op

I have. I've silently been following this thread and reading through all the posts as you speak solely to yourself (it's okay; you're not the only poster who does this sort of thing). I will say, for my part, it all reads as if you're trying to convince someone of something, but no one is participating in the thread. The op is almost two years old! No one but you has posted anything since March 15! You've done very little to address any of this op's respondents' concerns.

Which you are entitled not to do .

In other words, Post 42 occurs in a vacuum of your own making. Were it not for the obvious problem (or at least the problem I think is obvious) and its seriousness, I might have left it unattended and you to post to yourself for another two years. I am hoping you'll engage the contradiction. I am hoping it's simply a mistake of wording but based on Post 44 it looks like the contradiction is based on a lack of understanding the "decree" or the "ordaining" of God. That sort of misunderstanding isn't particularly difficult to amend but that won't happen unless the matter is discussed. It is my hope this is not a problem of some idolatrous allegiance to some yet to be stated doctrinal bias because, while I might still enjoy the discourse, I'd have little hope of seeing anything changed.

So, take a chance and discuss this real or perceived contradiction (and nothing else). One part of Post 42 says God is the author, the originator, the creator, of sin and another part of that post says He, Himself, did not do anything and it would be impossible for Him to do so because He can't transgress any law (btw, that may not be entirely correct, either, but that's fodder for another conversation)..... yet He determined Satan and Adam would sin.

These are contradictory statements. They can be made not to conflict with one another. Let's start with the simple question: can you see the contradiction? Is its existence recognized?

 

[brightfame52]

Created for a Purpose of Grace in Christ Jesus !


Eph 3:8-11

8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;

9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,

11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:

This World was Created according to an Eternal Purpose of Grace [A Mystery] in Christ Jesus.

2 Tim 1:9

9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

This was an Eternal Purpose wherein God's Elect were given Grace in Christ before the foundation;

And within this Eternal Purpose of Grace, Christ was the Foreknown or Foreordained before the World Began 1 Pet 1:20

20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

That means it was before this Gen 1:1-3

In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

Now Christ also in the Same Eternal Purpose established before the foundation had been slain Rev 13:8

8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain [for sinners] from the foundation of the world.

And so Adam was Created/ Made within the Scope of this Eternal Purpose of Grace. It was by the Purpose of God that sin should enter the world and death by sin Rom 5:12. You see death was the way Christ was to die for the Purpose of Grace Heb 2:9.

Also in the Creation of Adam, God Created in him a principle of death, and assured him that he was surely going to eat and die Gen 2:17

But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

He had to die because in the Eternal Purpose of God, Christ had to die .

So the Death and Sin entering the World by Adam Rom 5:12 was in according to God's Purpose of Grace in Christ. It was God's Purpose that sin should [by adam] enter the world and death by sin, it was no fluke, no mistake, no backup plan, no, it was all according to God's Infinite Wisdom Rom 11:33

33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!

That word wisdom means:

ii.the wisdom of God as evinced in forming and executing counsels in the formation and government of the world and the scriptures.

Adam's Transgression was brought forth according to God's Purpose in Christ and in Creation Col 1:16

16 For by him[Christ] were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him[Christ], and for him[Christ]:

For Christ before the World was ever Created, was already, in the Eternal Purpose of Grace, the Slain Lamb ! 4

 

[brightfame52]

@Josheb

Yes, and the contradiction remains unaddressed and unresolved.

Read my posts, they contradict what you present and remain unresolved for all that matters.

 

[Josheb]

Start reading from my op

I have. I've silently been following this thread and reading through all the posts as you speak solely to yourself.....

Read my posts,

I have. Mutiple times.

they contradict what you present and remain unresolved for all that matters.

The posts prove otherwise. All you've done is quote verses that mention the word "purpose" without every definiing it and when you are asked to define God's purpose you claim you have when you have not.

11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:

What is that purpose?

2 Tim 1:9

9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

What is that purpose?

This was an Eternal Purpose wherein God's Elect were given Grace in Christ before the foundation;

No, that is a statement God has a purpose. The verse does not identify that purpose.

For Christ before the World was ever Created, was already, in the Eternal Purpose of Grace, the Slain Lamb ! 4

Yes, Jesus was already in God's purpose when the world was created. What is that purpose?


Now the last time I asked you this question you refused to answer it, so I left the thread. Since then you've been posting to yourself. Yesterday I took a chance on having another conversation with you because Post 42 contains contradictions, but this has again proven a matter impossible to discuss. I tried to simplify the matter by asking if the contradiction is even seen.

A simple "yes" or a simple "no" would be sufficient and further the discussion and provide me with direction for how to respond but I cannot even get a yes or no. So, I will, therefore, ask the question once more:


Can you see the contradiction in Post 42?


If so, then say so and try to fix the post so it does not contradict itself. I will gladly commend that. If not, then would you like me to further explain the contradiction and offer a resolution so we can then both have consensus with God's word?


.

 

[brightfame52]

@Josheb

What is that purpose?

You kidding me right ? I have stated that already, obviously you not paying attention and just want to argue. Read the posts carefully. And Im not under any obligation to answer your questions chasing your sound bites. Do you even understand this thread in the first place ?

 

[Josheb]

@Josheb



You kidding me right ?

That is not an answer to the question asked.

I have stated that already, obviously you not paying attention and just want to argue.

That is not an answer to the question asked.

Read the posts carefully.

That is not an answer to the question asked.

And Im not under any obligation to answer your questions chasing your sound bites.

That is not an answer to the question asked.

Do you even understand this thread in the first place ?

Yes, multiple times, and that is not an answer to the question asked. I understand you think you have answered the question but you have not. I've read the entire thread, all three pages of posts and there's not a single sentence in any of the posts that states, "God's eternal purpose of creation is ___________________." The closest you've come is alluding to the purpose. You've said God has an eternal purpose, a redemptive purpose, a soteriological purpose, but that purpose has not been identified anywhere in three pages of posts. All of it begs the question, "What is God's eternal, redemptive, soteriological purpose?" and the answer should be, "God's eternal redemptive, soteriological purpose is ? , but that defining, identifying statement is absent from the thread. What will God have accomplished when His eternal redemptive soteriological purpose is achieved? Big shoulder shrug and obfuscation, "Read the posts." Mr. James Laning says, "Christ is the goal. He was always the goal," but that answer begs the question. It begs the question; it does not answer it. Btw, Mr. Laning is addressing God's purpose in Adam's fall, not God''s eternal purpose of creation. He never mentions creation! You may have fallen prey to Mr. Laning's laziness. All things were created by Jesus, and for Jesus but for what end? Do a little exercise. Take out the word "Christ," and put in the word "truck," or "grape." There's an eternal, redemptive, soteriological purpose accomplished when the grape enters creation. There's a purpose for that truck entering creation. What is that purpose????? Identifying God's purpose can be done with a single sentence.

But that has nothing to do with the current inquiry. I've moved on from that matter. I am now asking you something different.


Do you see the contradiction in Post 42?


Nothing more is asked of you at this time. Do you see the contradiction in Post 42, or not?

 

[brightfame52]

Created for a Purpose of Grace in Christ Jesus ! 2


The World was Created for the Making Known of the Mystery of/in Christ Eph 3:3-11

3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,

4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)

5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;

6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

7 Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.

8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;

9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,

11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:

Yes even the formulation of The Nation of Israel, for the Purpose of Christ in the flesh, was in subservience to the Mystery in Christ.

It was always that God would be Glorified for the Unsearchable Richs of Christ shown and bestowed upon the Gentiles, who comprise His Chosen Israel. The Church serves a much more Glorious Purpose in the Glorifying of God upon the Earth and in the World, than did National Israel, it was just a means to a Greater End; For through it, the Church is to make known the Manifold Wisdom of God Eph 3:8-11

8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;

9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God, See in this connection 1 Pet 1:10-12

11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:

This includes the Purpose of All Creation from the very beginning, for it is written Prov 3:19

19 The Lord by wisdom hath founded the earth; by understanding hath he established the heavens.

All this points back to the Fact that this World was Created for a Redemptive Purpose in Christ. 5

 

[brightfame52]

Created for a Purpose of Grace in Christ Jesus ! 3

This Eternal Purpose in Christ for the Church far exceeds that of national Israel in that all the Universe, its principalities and powers admire the Wisdom of God displayed Eph 3:9-10

9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,

Its that Hope of Glory Col 1:27

27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

This is that Glory Jesus Prays about for His Believers here Jn 17:20-24

20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:

23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.

Its the Glory spoken of here Lk 2:32

A light to lighten the Gentiles, and the glory of thy people Israel.