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Was the Spirit of God Indwelling the Redeemed before Pentecost?

What is the outpouring of the Holy Spirit?​

https://www.gotquestions.org/outpouring-of-the-Holy-Spirit.html
Apparently Gotquestion.org has some ideas on the Holy Spirit and INDWELLING and FILLING.

I believe God's work of salvific faith in individuals and their subsequent sanctification is monergistic in both the O.T. and N.T.
I define INDWELLING as God working in believers (sanctification) in both the O.T. and N.T. Maybe the definition of INDWELLING escapes me.
Maybe think of the 'indwelling' as the gift of the Spirit of God, as relates to salvation. But yes, ALWAYS, necessarily, remaining and continuing in the subsequent sanctification. He takes up residence, and then resides, (or continues to reside.)
 
Then how were they saved? And how were they transformed?
OK, I'm basing my position that OT saints weren't regenerate on these future promises...

(Jer 31:33) But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

(Eze 36:26) A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

It's sort of like Jesus saying in Mt 18, "I will build my Church" (He hadn't started until Calvary- Acts 20:28)

Acts 20:28 NKJV
Therefore take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood.
 
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When Jesus sent out the 12 in Matthew 10th chapter after giving them a temporary Holy Ghost as that "power" was given to them, He said this;

Matthew 10:19 But when they deliver you up, take no thought how or what ye shall speak: for it shall be given you in that same hour what ye shall speak. 20 For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you.

Jesus did not say seek or pray for a filling of the Spirit before they were to speak as everything should be done by faith.

So when you read the events in Acts that Reformed Theology/Calvinism seem to place this "continual filling" of the Holy Spirit from, do note the use of the term "filled with the Spirit" as in past tense to signify how the disciples were answering or doing the things they were doing rather than they just received a filling of the Spirit "again" in order to do those things.

Acts 4:7 And when they had set them in the midst, they asked, By what power, or by what name, have ye done this? 8 Then Peter, filled with the Holy Ghost, said unto them, Ye rulers of the people, and elders of Israel,

They had asked that question and verse 8 is signifying how Peter spoke as led by the Spirit to inform readers he was not answering from himself.

Acts 13:8 But Elymas the sorcerer (for so is his name by interpretation) withstood them, seeking to turn away the deputy from the faith. 9 Then Saul, (who also is called Paul,) filled with the Holy Ghost, set his eyes on him. 10 And said, O full of all subtilty and all mischief, thou child of the devil, thou enemy of all righteousness, wilt thou not cease to pervert the right ways of the Lord?

That was how Paul said the things that he did since Paul could not have known that to render such a judgment but the Lord through the Holy Spirit in Paul, said that as Paul filled with the Holy Ghost with none of his flesh or his own intellect speaking that at all.

Acts 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed. 49 And the word of the Lord was published throughout all the region. 50 But the Jews stirred up the devout and honourable women, and the chief men of the city, and raised persecution against Paul and Barnabas, and expelled them out of their coasts. 51 But they shook off the dust of their feet against them, and came unto Iconium. 52 And the disciples were filled with joy, and with the Holy Ghost.

Now to the readers, how can they behave like that after such a work of the Lord did in that region? Why weren't they mad and just march right back into that region to defy those who kicked them out? To the religious flesh, it would seem confusing how they could have just walked away after seeing all that the Lord had done in that region, but they did so as led by the Lord as they were filled with the Holy Ghost to do so, even to have joy ( which is a fruit of the Spirit also )

So that is an example of how they could have done that, not that afterwards, they received a supernatural filling of the Holy Ghost in order for them to walk away with joy in doing that for they have been filled with the Holy Ghost for how they had done that ministry & walking away.

Of course, Acts 2;4 was when His disciples were saved as well as Paul in Acts 9:17 but for Acts 4:31, was when the company of potential 5,000 believers were saved since they became a new community of believers, selling all that they had and given it to the apostles to distribute evenly among that new community of believers. They had prayed that they would preach like Peter & John after hearing what had happened to them when they got arrested and then acting on their belief finally so that was when they were actually born again of the Spirit.

So there is no more filling of the Spirit as we are always filled since salvation as a testimony from God that we are saved.

Matthew 9:17 Neither do men put new wine into old bottles: else the bottles break, and the wine runneth out, and the bottles perish: but they put new wine into new bottles, and both are preserved.

You are not a leaky vessel that you need a continual filling of the Spirit.

John 6:35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.

Jesus promised after salvation, we would never seek another filling of the Spirit as if hungering or thirsting for more of God.

John 7:38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. 39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

This is how we are always filled with the Spirit since salvation as no sin can stop that flow of living waters or make Him leave us.

Ephesians 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

The new reality in Christ should settle in every saved believer with contentment as filled with the Spirit always as a testimony we are saved.

1 Corinthians 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? 20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.
I'm having a hard time making a salient point out of all this you are saying, that is relevant to the OP.
 
OK, I'm basing my position that OT saints weren't regenerate on these future promises...

(Jer 31:33) But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

(Eze 36:26) A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

It's sort of like Jesus saying in Mt 18, "I will build my Church" (He hadn't started until Calvary- Acts 20:28)

Acts 20:28 NKJV
Therefore take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood.
If I can make sense of what you are saying here, then you are also implying (by extrapolation, (without meaning to)) that the OT saints are not even saved by faith. That's a different Gospel.
 
Since the O.T. saints were in Abraham's bosom aka Paradise before Christ had descended after His death and preached to them in that "prison" and then after His ascension, He brought Paradise and all the inhabitants with Him to the Father in Heaven, there was some form of eternal security & I believe it was this faith of the promised seed that was coming that would bring them to that better country, a city made by God.

Hebrews 11:5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God. 6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him. 7 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith. 8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went. 9 By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise: 10 For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.

11 Through faith also Sara
herself received strength to conceive seed, and was delivered of a child when she was past age, because she judged him faithful who had promised. 12 Therefore sprang there even of one, and him as good as dead, so many as the stars of the sky in multitude, and as the sand which is by the sea shore innumerable. 13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. 14 For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country. 15 And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned. 16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.

I believe you can apply Hebrews 11:6 for how and why the O.T. saints were in Abraham's bosom aka Paradise.
Not to argue your conclusions, but, how does this answer of yours relate to the OP?
 
The Bible in the OT never states specifically that the Holy Spirit indwells anyone. It does specifically state that in the new covenant of believers. The indwelling is a part of the new covenant. In the OT we only see the Holy Spirit doing things---coming and going---but active in the ways in which the Holy Spirit is active even in the indwelling of new covenant believers. The one thing we do not see in the OT faithful is the sealing in Christ by the Holy Spirit.

What that means regarding the regeneration of OT saints I cannot say. The regeneration that brings one into the New Covenant through faith is a new birth in Christ, as opposed to in Adam. In Adam we are blind to spiritual truths. In Christ we see and embrace them. So regeneration is a part of the New Covenant, not the old.

In the Old Covenant a different way to trusting in God and learning of Him was given, that spoke of Christ in shadows and types. Did they still need to understand the spiritual elements in the law. I believe so. Could they do so without the Holy Spirit giving them this understanding anymore than we can? Probably not. Did He have to indwell them in order to do this? Probably not. Could He keep them unto salvation without indwelling them? Of course. He is God.
But if I went with this, I would have to conclude that they are not only NOT saved by faith generated by the Spirit of God —a continuous faith— but only by the kind of faith that any adherent of any religion can have.

The fact that a thing is not mentioned doesn't mean that it is not there. To me, if I was to extrapolate the necessary implications of what you are saying, theirs was a different gospel. The very essence of salvific faith is God himself. Not just as the object of our faith but the means—the beginning and the end.
 
That'd be silly!!! Of course the terms "Regenerated", and "Elected" are worthless since they have any number of meanings, depending on one's theological bias. Calvinists appear to believe that they, and they ALONE define them properly.

The simple FACT is the God can, and DOES communicate whenever He desires to with Humans, REGARDLESS Of their spiritual condition, and Calvinist "Total Depravity" isn't GOD'S WORD. it's nothing more that the Calvinist interpretation of what they THINK the Bible teaches, along with their own "theology about what it all means. God communicated with OLD Testament Saints WHO WERE NOT BORN AGAIN, since the Holy Spirit indwelled NOBODY until John 20:22. Remember John 14:17.
So YOU are the one who has it right, and not the Calvinists. Good luck with that!
 
If I can make sense of what you are saying here, then you are also implying (by extrapolation, (without meaning to)) that the OT saints are not even saved by faith. That's a different Gospel.
As I understand it Abraham was called on to believe 'natural promises' (things he could naturally see), given by a supernatural God...

Genesis 15:4-6 NKJV
And behold, the word of the LORD came to him, saying, "This one shall not be your heir, but one who will come from your own body shall be your heir." [5] Then He brought him outside and said, "Look now toward heaven, and count the stars if you are able to number them." And He said to him, "So shall your descendants be." [6] And he believed in the LORD, and He accounted it to him for righteousness.

I don't believe there needs to be a spiritual rebirth to grasp 'natural' promises.

John 3:12 NKJV
If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things?
 
As I understand it Abraham was called on to believe 'natural promises' (things he could naturally see), given by a supernatural God...

Genesis 15:4-6 NKJV
And behold, the word of the LORD came to him, saying, "This one shall not be your heir, but one who will come from your own body shall be your heir." [5] Then He brought him outside and said, "Look now toward heaven, and count the stars if you are able to number them." And He said to him, "So shall your descendants be." [6] And he believed in the LORD, and He accounted it to him for righteousness.

I don't believe there needs to be a spiritual rebirth to grasp 'natural' promises.

John 3:12 NKJV
If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things?
How is that salvific faith?
 
I'm having a hard time making a salient point out of all this you are saying, that is relevant to the OP.
I believe I had quoted you for why I was addressing this point.

Here is the point I had quoted you that I was replying for.

before I even knew what Reformed Theology/ Calvinism was —that there is the indwelling by the Spirit, separately from the 'filling' of the Spirit —the 'filling' being unrelated to salvation.
Just showing scriptures and rightly dividing the word of truth for why there is no more continual filling of the Spirit for the believer after salvation, but those that say there is, are not rightly dividing the word of truth of what is happening in the Book of Acts, because how they apply that to mean is running against scripture in the N.T. and nulling and voiding Paul's warning about receiving another Jesus or another Holy Spirit.
 
Not to argue your conclusions, but, how does this answer of yours relate to the OP?
Again in relation to your prior quote below;

Anyhow, I'd appreciate if any of you can convince me that it is possible for the OT saints, though Totally depraved, Unconditionally elected, to be regenerated, and kept by their own integrity subsequent to the initial work of the Holy Spirit in changing their minds concerning God. To me, this denies the very meaning of the work of God, and our unity in Christ. It raises the creature to a substantial position very close to the Self-deterministic view, and the gall rising in my throat at the thoughts is a little hard to handle. We are IN Christ, not AT Christ.
The reference in Hebrews chapter 11 was to signify how and why they were in Abraham's bosom aka Paradise and it was by their faith in the coming promised seed, as in that future country and that faith in that future City Whose Maker is God.

I believe that was what you were asking for how they can have the Holy Spirit in them & yet Christ had not died yet for them to be in Heaven and not hell in the afterlife, but if I was wrong in understanding the scope of your quote for what you were asking for, then clarity is needed.

Granted, after His death, Jesus descended to that prison to preach unto them in Paradise aka Abraham's bosom and after His ascension, He had brought Paradise to the third Heaven where the souls of the O.T. saints are now at and awaiting for the firstfruits of the resurrection along with N.T. disciples to sit down at that Marriage Supper table in heaven per Luke 13:24-30 at the pre-great tribulation rapture event.
 
Abraham was justified when he believed God. Is there something we need to add?
How/ Why did he believe?
I believe I had quoted you for why I was addressing this point.

Here is the point I had quoted you that I was replying for.


Just showing scriptures and rightly dividing the word of truth for why there is no more continual filling of the Spirit for the believer after salvation, but those that say there is, are not rightly dividing the word of truth of what is happening in the Book of Acts, because how they apply that to mean is running against scripture in the N.T. and nulling and voiding Paul's warning about receiving another Jesus or another Holy Spirit.
Sorry. No. Nobody says there is a continual filling (though we are told to be continually filled), but a dwelling within, and the question is as to whether the Acts account describes history's beginning of the dwelling or not.
 

What is the outpouring of the Holy Spirit?​

https://www.gotquestions.org/outpouring-of-the-Holy-Spirit.html
Apparently Gotquestion.org has some ideas on the Holy Spirit and INDWELLING and FILLING.

I believe God's work of salvific faith in individuals and their subsequent sanctification is monergistic in both the O.T. and N.T.
I define INDWELLING as God working in believers (sanctification) in both the O.T. and N.T. Maybe the definition of INDWELLING escapes me.
From that link you had provided which is in your quote;

"The outpouring of the Spirit is different from the filling of the Spirit. The outpouring was a unique coming of the Holy Spirit to earth; the filling happens whenever we are surrendered to God’s control of our lives. We are commanded to be filled with the Spirit (Ephesians 5:18). In this regard it is possible for the believer either to be “filled with the Spirit” or to “quench” the Spirit (1 Thessalonians 5:19). In either case, the Holy Spirit remains with the believer (as opposed to the Old Testament era, when the Holy Spirit would come and go). The filling of the Spirit comes as a direct result of submission to God’s will, and the quenching is a direct result of rebelling against God’s will." ~~~~ end of quote from link
Ephesians 5:18 has been often misapplied by believers in these latter days as a commandment to believers to be filled with the Holy Ghost when it is an exhortation to remain "sober" as in, instead of being drunk with wine, but remain sober as in, be filled with the Holy Ghost.

Ephesians 5:18 And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit;

1 Thessalonians 5:19 should be read in context to know what they are meaning about not quenching the Holy Spirit which is to not to despise prophesying or edifying others.

1 Thessalonians 5:18 In every thing give thanks: for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus concerning you. 19 Quench not the Spirit. 20 Despise not prophesyings.

In context, when we take into account that scripture did not originally come with numbered chapters or numbered verses, I would believe verse 19 would be applied to verse 20 for the negative we would do in quenching the Spirit by despising prophesying or edifying others.

There is no more filling of the Holy Spirit because it runs against the truth in scripture.
John 6:35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.

Jesus said twice by that scripture above and below that we would never hunger nor thirst for another filling after salvation.

Matthew 9:17 Neither do men put new wine into old bottles: else the bottles break, and the wine runneth out, and the bottles perish: but they put new wine into new bottles, and both are preserved.

Matthew 9:17 is a testimony of God being in us that we are saved for why there can be no leaky vessel in that regard.

Some believers believe they are a leaky vessel for why they need a continual filling but how can any scripture claim this verse which is God's testimony to the saved state of the believer. They can't.
And so they are misapplying His words in the Book of Acts if they believe His disciples are being filled "again" with the Holy Spirit when in actuality, it is testifying to how they speak what they say and how they can do what they do. Read Post # 36 that explains this in this thread.



@makesends
 
Sorry. No. Nobody says there is a continual filling (though we are told to be continually filled), but a dwelling within, and the question is as to whether the Acts account describes history's beginning of the dwelling or not.
See post # 95.

Like it or not, those who misapply Ephesians 5:18 often treat it as a commandment to be filled with the Spirit as if an ongoing command when that entire verse is just the message to not be drunk with wine but remain in self control ( temperance is a fruit of the Spirit ) as be filled with the Spirit.

If you ever wondered why when listing the fruit of the Spirit is singular, this is why and that is to be filled with all the fruit of the Spirit as in be filled with the Spirit.

Galatians 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, 23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

@fastfredy0 In case you may be interested in this added point about the fruit of the Spirit; when you have the Holy Spirit, you have every fruit of the Holy Spirit for why we are not to sow to the works of the flesh as in the case of wine in excess, drunkenness which is a work of the flesh.
 
Abraham was justified when he believed God. Is there something we need to add?

How/ Why did he believe?
@makesends ... almost seems like the Calvinists on this forum do not see God as the cause of people's faith and God as the cause of their continued sanctification when it comes to O.T. saints. (If I'm reading the implications correctly). :unsure:
 
Isn't it true that Compatibalism means...

God did it %100
Man did it %100

%100 × %100 = 1

Just as Jesus is %100 Man and %100 God, in 1 person...

Two %100's are 1 without mixing, and are Inseparable...
 
More importantly to me than the terminology of 'indwell' vs 'bring to salvation' vs 'fill' is the matter of the HOW of regeneration, if not by the fact of the continuing work of the Spirit of God within. To my thinking, one is not made alive from the death of his flesh, without that life being endemic to the Spirit of God, rather than ontologically become the way of the believer.
There does seem to be a difference between indwelling and filling.

Would you say David had the HS indwelling him....pentecost style...or filling him? Or something different.
We ARE become new creatures, we are changed within, though not yet glorified, but that is ALL of it the work of God, and not of man.

I'll try to be a little more specific: The faith by which we are saved, is not ours by our mental or emotional prowess. It is ours because it is generated by the Spirit of God within us. Further, we are not safe in the 'OSAS' manner, where once we have crossed a certain threshold we are unable to go back, but rather, we are safe because we are KEPT by the work of God. It is only a sure thing because God will complete what he has begun. Not because we have completed a recipe.
I like the way you put that.
 
He didn't say, "Restore unto me my salvation", but, "Restore unto me the joy of my salvation".

There comes a point where what is foremost on one's mind is no longer the question of the security of your eternal end, but of fellowship with God. One's point of view becomes that life is about God, and not about self. The struggle of compliance with the law is about self, but the pursuit of obedience is about God.
I would agree. There is two forms of forgiveness...the initial forgiveness where all of your sins are forgiven and then a second dealing with ones fellowship with God.
 
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