Was the Spirit of God Indwelling the Redeemed before Pentecost?

[makesends]

In the New Covenant era He permanently indwells the believer.

Yes, agreed, but how does that translate to mean that he did not permanently indwell the believer before the New Covenant?

 

[ReverendRV]

Not really. My problem is when a Calvinist says that regeneration changes a person such that they don't need the Holy Spirit anymore.

It's easy for a dispensationalist, for example, to say that salvation (and, I suppose, sanctification) was different under the Old Testament Gospel, and it is one of their statements I found hard to swallow even when I was one of them. It always bothered me that they seemed to think that there were two gospels.

I find no reason to believe that a changed, regenerated, person is ontologically different, in and of himself, from the way he was before regeneration, apart from the continuing indwelling Spirit of God.

I agree, that's terrible. We can do nothing without God...

 

[ReverendRV]

Samson is a good example of the Spirit coming and going from him; the Bible says the Spirit came upon him three times. Judges 14:5-6, 14:19, 15:14-15. But this doesn't prove that the Spirit left Samson those three times. We're also told that the LORD departed from Samson in Judges 16:20. So it's not a stretch to presume the Spirit came and departed the times mentioned above...

Especially since Jesus himself taught the Spirit would come to the OT Saints and go. This doesn't happen to NT Saints...

 

[prism]

I think Verses can have multiple meanings. Does the Verse have Eschatological meaning? Does the Verse have Evangelistic meaning? That's one of my favorite questions to ask of a Verse. Does the Verse have Soteriological meaning?

And so on, and so on...

In the Old Covenant, when an Evil spirit was cast out; who cleansed the body? It's the Holy Spirit. The Verse is primarily speaking of an individual, right?

Dispensational Eschatology takes a back seat to this...

I was looking at the context of Mt 12:38-42, it seems to fit the unbelieving nation idea.

 

[ReverendRV]

I was looking at the context of Mt 12:38-42, it seems to fit the unbelieving nation idea.

Discuss that on the Eschatology Boards. I don't understand how it relates to the Unbelieving Nation. Please don't derail the Thread...

 

[makesends]

@Eleanor @Arial @ReverendRV @Reformedguy @Josheb @fastfredy0 @atpollard @His clay @Carbon @Ladodgers6 @Red Baker @Manfred @TMSO @Dave_Regenerated @CrazyCalvinistUncle @prism @Bob Carabbio @ChristB4us @CrowCross
@severalothers,nodoubt

For the next couple of weeks I may not be able to post much (hunting season), but for now, I will say that I have seen much in Scripture I could add to anything you've posted so far, to help you make a case against what I believe. But I don't see how that case is possible, unless I completely revamp my thinking concerning the gospel and the means of regeneration. I appreciate such as @Carbon seeing things pretty much the way I do, and even @ChristB4us and @Bob Carabbio .

Somehow, and ironically, I find myself having to think of Pentecost, and of the prophesies and promises concerning the coming/giving of the Holy Spirit before Pentecost being pretty much along the lines I was taught by fundamentalistic dispensationalists before I even knew what Reformed Theology/ Calvinism was —that there is the indwelling by the Spirit, separately from the 'filling' of the Spirit —the 'filling' being unrelated to salvation. So far I've read none of them (the Scriptures) to disagree with what I think here, though at first glance they may seem to.

Anyhow, I'd appreciate if any of you can convince me that it is possible for the OT saints, though Totally depraved, Unconditionally elected, to be regenerated, and kept by their own integrity subsequent to the initial work of the Holy Spirit in changing their minds concerning God. To me, this denies the very meaning of the work of God, and our unity in Christ. It raises the creature to a substantial position very close to the Self-deterministic view, and the gall rising in my throat at the thoughts is a little hard to handle. We are IN Christ, not AT Christ.

 

[prism]

Anyhow, I'd appreciate if any of you can convince me that it is possible for the OT saints, though Totally depraved, Unconditionally elected, to be regenerated, and kept by their own integrity subsequent to the initial work of the Holy Spirit in changing their minds concerning God.

I don't believe OT saints were regenerated, let alone 'kept by their own integrity subsequent to the Spirit's initial work's, although I do believe they were totally depraved and unconditionally elected.

 

[prism]

Discuss that on the Eschatology Boards. I don't understand how it relates to the Unbelieving Nation. Please don't derail the Thread...

I was only responding to your post, clarifying why I held the position I held..context.

 

[Fred]

Yes, agreed, but how does that translate to mean that he did not permanently indwell the believer before the New Covenant?

David did ask that God not take His Holy Spirit from him (Psalm 51:11).

One who is a Christian would not have to pray such a prayer.

 

[Fred]

there is the indwelling by the Spirit, separately from the 'filling' of the Spirit —the 'filling' being unrelated to salvation. So far I've read none of them (the Scriptures) to disagree with what I think here, though at first glance they may seem to.

When Corenlius and the other Gentiles with him were filled with the Holy Spirit they were indwelt with the Holy Spirit. This filling was related to their salvation.

 

[CrowCross]

Anyhow, I'd appreciate if any of you can convince me that it is possible for the OT saints, though Totally depraved, Unconditionally elected, to be regenerated,

I don't believe OT saints were regenerated,

Regeneration...interesting question.

John 3 speaks of being "born again"....and from what I understand born again means regeneration while Eph 2 uses "made alive".

In John 3:5 ...5 Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit.

When applied against the question..."Was the Spirit of God Indwelling the Redeemed before Pentecost?" (I feel the answer is "no" except on special occasions for prophets and such)....when did regeneration occur for the OT saints?

In the parable of Lazarus and the rich man we see Lazarus in the bosom of Abraham....and not heaven. Was Lazarus and the OT saints regenerated then or did they have to wait for the resurrection or day of Pentecost?

 

[TMSO]

@Eleanor @Arial @ReverendRV @Reformedguy @Josheb @fastfredy0 @atpollard @His clay @Carbon @Ladodgers6 @Red Baker @Manfred @TMSO @Dave_Regenerated @CrazyCalvinistUncle @severalothers,nodoubt​

​

Please note: What I am saying below is what seems to me necessary to believe, but I don't stand behind it as though I am necessarily right, nor that I have even described the notion well. In fact, even what may be taken for defense of the notion is more intended to describe my point-of-view in the matter, and not to defend it.​

Seems a lot of Calvinists/Reformed think the Holy Spirit wasn't a fixture until after Pentecost. That is, (if I understand those to whom I have spoken about it), that perhaps the Holy Spirit regenerated people, before Pentecost, but that he didn't indwell them until after Pentecost.

But I don't see how anything we do, neither faith nor obedience, is done apart from his continuous work in us. To me, it is endemic to the gospel —though not at all to say that one must understand this as part of the gospel— that Salvation, to include everything from creation and election to regeneration to glorification, is wholly the work of God. As most of you probably know, I reject the notion of synergism completely —even after sanctification— in that it suggests a work of God is made valid or complete only if we cooperate.

It is true that the Holy Spirit does as it will, and cannot be restrained. (John 3) But I don't think that what I say here posits restraint upon it.

However, (to my mind, at least), not only Regeneration, but also Sanctification (of the Old Testament believers as well as those from the New) IS from the continuing work of the Holy Spirit in us. Sanctification is not only after it came and left. It remains in the believer. Faith is endemic throughout, and that IS the work of the Spirit of God.

As I understand it, and, from my POV/ experience (not that personal experience is any basis for doctrine), the indwelling of the Spirit of God is the ONLY way any of us are of any Christian integrity. Regeneration does not change a person to make them suddenly of integrity in their thinking and their decisions, but the Spirit of God in us is what causes this "ability" continuously.

It is not endemic of regenerated unglorified humans to know or understand (in the common sense) to any effective degree what they are doing or what they believe. Only God knows these things, and that, in their entirety. And I think it can be argued that even in Heaven, our very glorification does not enable us to do anything separately from God, but that it is the completed unity with (into?) God that glorifies us, and not a work done upon us in the common temporal notion.

Apart from him we can do nothing. And I think the case can be made that apart from him, we ARE nothing.

I would say (and this is off the cuff), that it is possible that Pentecost indicated in a change/addition to the Holy Spirit's modus operandi. At Pentecost, He entered believers to empower them to action through gifts and provision. (Hard to word that last one. Jesus said not to worry what we will say when we face death, for the Holy Spirit will provide testimony through us. So, some differences between the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, and His actions that bring us to salvaiton. So while He may be seen as having always worked in the life of believers, the indwelling of the Holy Spirit as ambassadors of Christ, and for the enrichment and edification of the church, came at Pentecost. This may be completely wrong, which is why I said it is off the cuff. I just got home from work (I am a night owl shift worker) and going to sleep soon, so I wanted to at least give voice to thoughts on the subject, in case this stirs up some discussion.

 

[ReverendRV]

@Eleanor @Arial @ReverendRV @Reformedguy @Josheb @fastfredy0 @atpollard @His clay @Carbon @Ladodgers6 @Red Baker @Manfred @TMSO @Dave_Regenerated @CrazyCalvinistUncle @prism @Bob Carabbio @ChristB4us @CrowCross
@severalothers,nodoubt

For the next couple of weeks I may not be able to post much (hunting season), but for now, I will say that I have seen much in Scripture I could add to anything you've posted so far, to help you make a case against what I believe. But I don't see how that case is possible, unless I completely revamp my thinking concerning the gospel and the means of regeneration. I appreciate such as @Carbon seeing things pretty much the way I do, and even @ChristB4us and @Bob Carabbio .

Somehow, and ironically, I find myself having to think of Pentecost, and of the prophesies and promises concerning the coming/giving of the Holy Spirit before Pentecost being pretty much along the lines I was taught by fundamentalistic dispensationalists before I even knew what Reformed Theology/ Calvinism was —that there is the indwelling by the Spirit, separately from the 'filling' of the Spirit —the 'filling' being unrelated to salvation. So far I've read none of them (the Scriptures) to disagree with what I think here, though at first glance they may seem to.

Anyhow, I'd appreciate if any of you can convince me that it is possible for the OT saints, though Totally depraved, Unconditionally elected, to be regenerated, and kept by their own integrity subsequent to the initial work of the Holy Spirit in changing their minds concerning God. To me, this denies the very meaning of the work of God, and our unity in Christ. It raises the creature to a substantial position very close to the Self-deterministic view, and the gall rising in my throat at the thoughts is a little hard to handle. We are IN Christ, not AT Christ.

Happy Hunting!

About revamping your thinking; one thing that made a difference for me, was realizing much of what Jesus said in the Four Gospels applied to the Old Testament. That's why John 3 is about Old Covenant Regeneration. Jesus told Nicodemus, 'You are the Teacher of Israel and you don't know this?' The implication is that Nicodemus should have been teaching his Israel, which was under the Old Covenant, that they MUST be Born Again...

While in the deer stand, think about how some of the Words in Red were meant for Nicodemus; not to You and Paul. Instances such as our seeming to Lose our Salvation; that's not New Covenant. Perhaps Luke 12:46 for instance?

The master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he is not aware of. He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the unbelievers.

 

[ReverendRV]

Happy Hunting!

About revamping your thinking; one thing that made a difference for me was realizing much of what Jesus said in the Gospel was applied to the Old Testament. That's why John 3 is about Old Covenant Regeneration. Jesus told Nicodemus, 'You are the Teacher of Israel and you don't know these things?' The implication is that Nicodemus should have been teaching Israel while under the Old Covenant that they MUST be Born Again...

While in the deer stand, think about how some of the Words in Red were meant for Nicodemus; not Paul...

Man of two Covenants ~ by ReverendRV * July 8

Jeremiah 31:31 NLT; "The day is coming," says the LORD, "when I will make a new covenant with the people of Israel and Judah.

Before the days of Jeremiah, the last Covenant God made with Israel was the Davidic Covenant. I researched a Jewish Rabbi and he says the promised New Covenant hasn’t come yet; this means they are still waiting for a New Covenant to appear. ~ The Old Testament has a ‘Typology’; symbolism which is explained to us in the New Testament of the Bible. During the Last Supper, Jesus led his Disciples through a Jewish ritual called a Seder. He went on to teach that the Wine of the Seder symbolizes the New Covenant established by his blood; we see that Jesus believed God’s New Covenant was ratified during his lifetime. The Seder ritual was reflective of a bloody Covenant that God had previously made with Israel; the Mosaic Covenant. The Jewish Passover involved the Sacrifices of innocent lambs; and on every door that a lamb’s blood was seen, those who took refuge inside were saved from God’s Wrath…

Jesus was born under the Law of Moses; just like the rest of us. You object, “That Covenant was made with the Jews and I am not a Jew.” The Bible says that those who do the things of the Law, show that the Law is written on their hearts; this includes everybody. Have you almost stole before? You didn’t steal it but thought about it; good job! Wait a minute; thou shall not Covet anything that belongs to someone else! Coveting is stealing in your heart! If God judged you by his standard, would you be innocent or guilty? Would you then go to Heaven or to Hell? The New Covenant is for people who do not want to go to an eternal fiery Hell. ~ Jesus was a man of Two Covenants, the old English word for Covenant is ‘Testament’; the Old Testament and the New Testament. Jesus kept the Old Covenant and since no one else has ever kept that Righteous Requirement, he shares his achievement with all who put their Faith in him as the risen Lord God and Savior. By Grace, you now have met the Righteous standard God requires in order to be pleasing in his sight! But the sad news is that Jesus had to suffer the penalty for our Sins; an honest trade, since God detests dishonest scales. Because Jesus was now responsible for your Sin, he was nailed to a Cross and shed his blood like an innocent lamb. The Good News is that Jesus rose from the dead conquering Death and Hell for you! Read your Bible, find a Gospel Church; and praise the Lord!

Many things that Jesus said applied to keeping the Old Covenant, but other things he said applied to the New Covenant. The Gospels could easily be the last four books of the Old Testament because of Christ’s keeping the Law of Moses, and because he refined the Law in ways that show us it’s easier to break than we think. ~ This overlapping of Covenants in the Gospels is like a handshake; the Old fingers reach across the new hand and the New fingers reach across the Old hand. To understand the Gospels, read the Book of Galatians and the rest of the New Testament Epistles; this will help you know when Jesus is speaking about Law or about Grace…

Hebrews 8:13 NET; When he speaks of a new covenant, he makes the first obsolete. Now what is growing obsolete and aging is about to disappear.

 

[Arial]

David did ask that God not take His Holy Spirit from him (Psalm 51:11).

One who is a Christian would not have to pray such a prayer.

On occasion I have prayed that same prayer. And, though it shames me to say this, it is because I knew I was not listening to the counsel of the Holy Spirit according to His word, and going my own fleshly way. And my prayer was not because I thought God would remove the Holy Spirit from me, I know better. But it was in the sense that the Holy Spirit would back away from me and cease teaching me and being my help and interceding for me with the Father according to His will. It was not that I thought I would or could have the seal of/in Christ removed. That is not to say He would ever back away from me either other than corrective measures, but that was what was behind the prayer.

Possibly that was the case with David or something similar? Or also possibly because the Spirit was not in David but stood alongside of Him and David knew that he was dependant on the Spirit to love, keep, and know the law of God---to know God.

 

[ChristB4us]

Somehow, and ironically, I find myself having to think of Pentecost, and of the prophesies and promises concerning the coming/giving of the Holy Spirit before Pentecost being pretty much along the lines I was taught by fundamentalistic dispensationalists before I even knew what Reformed Theology/ Calvinism was —that there is the indwelling by the Spirit, separately from the 'filling' of the Spirit —the 'filling' being unrelated to salvation. So far I've read none of them (the Scriptures) to disagree with what I think here, though at first glance they may seem to.

When Jesus sent out the 12 in Matthew 10th chapter after giving them a temporary Holy Ghost as that "power" was given to them, He said this;

Matthew 10:19 But when they deliver you up, take no thought how or what ye shall speak: for it shall be given you in that same hour what ye shall speak. 20 For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you.

Jesus did not say seek or pray for a filling of the Spirit before they were to speak as everything should be done by faith.

So when you read the events in Acts that Reformed Theology/Calvinism seem to place this "continual filling" of the Holy Spirit from, do note the use of the term "filled with the Spirit" as in past tense to signify how the disciples were answering or doing the things they were doing rather than they just received a filling of the Spirit "again" in order to do those things.

Acts 4:7 And when they had set them in the midst, they asked, By what power, or by what name, have ye done this? 8 Then Peter, filled with the Holy Ghost, said unto them, Ye rulers of the people, and elders of Israel,

They had asked that question and verse 8 is signifying how Peter spoke as led by the Spirit to inform readers he was not answering from himself.

Acts 13:8 But Elymas the sorcerer (for so is his name by interpretation) withstood them, seeking to turn away the deputy from the faith. 9 Then Saul, (who also is called Paul,) filled with the Holy Ghost, set his eyes on him. 10 And said, O full of all subtilty and all mischief, thou child of the devil, thou enemy of all righteousness, wilt thou not cease to pervert the right ways of the Lord?

That was how Paul said the things that he did since Paul could not have known that to render such a judgment but the Lord through the Holy Spirit in Paul, said that as Paul filled with the Holy Ghost with none of his flesh or his own intellect speaking that at all.

Acts 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed. 49 And the word of the Lord was published throughout all the region. 50 But the Jews stirred up the devout and honourable women, and the chief men of the city, and raised persecution against Paul and Barnabas, and expelled them out of their coasts. 51 But they shook off the dust of their feet against them, and came unto Iconium. 52 And the disciples were filled with joy, and with the Holy Ghost.

Now to the readers, how can they behave like that after such a work of the Lord did in that region? Why weren't they mad and just march right back into that region to defy those who kicked them out? To the religious flesh, it would seem confusing how they could have just walked away after seeing all that the Lord had done in that region, but they did so as led by the Lord as they were filled with the Holy Ghost to do so, even to have joy ( which is a fruit of the Spirit also )

So that is an example of how they could have done that, not that afterwards, they received a supernatural filling of the Holy Ghost in order for them to walk away with joy in doing that for they have been filled with the Holy Ghost for how they had done that ministry & walking away.

Of course, Acts 2;4 was when His disciples were saved as well as Paul in Acts 9:17 but for Acts 4:31, was when the company of potential 5,000 believers were saved since they became a new community of believers, selling all that they had and given it to the apostles to distribute evenly among that new community of believers. They had prayed that they would preach like Peter & John after hearing what had happened to them when they got arrested and then acting on their belief finally so that was when they were actually born again of the Spirit.

So there is no more filling of the Spirit as we are always filled since salvation as a testimony from God that we are saved.

Matthew 9:17 Neither do men put new wine into old bottles: else the bottles break, and the wine runneth out, and the bottles perish: but they put new wine into new bottles, and both are preserved.

You are not a leaky vessel that you need a continual filling of the Spirit.

John 6:35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.

Jesus promised after salvation, we would never seek another filling of the Spirit as if hungering or thirsting for more of God.

John 7:38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. 39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

This is how we are always filled with the Spirit since salvation as no sin can stop that flow of living waters or make Him leave us.

Ephesians 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

The new reality in Christ should settle in every saved believer with contentment as filled with the Spirit always as a testimony we are saved.

1 Corinthians 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? 20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

 

[ChristB4us]

Anyhow, I'd appreciate if any of you can convince me that it is possible for the OT saints, though Totally depraved, Unconditionally elected, to be regenerated, and kept by their own integrity subsequent to the initial work of the Holy Spirit in changing their minds concerning God. To me, this denies the very meaning of the work of God, and our unity in Christ. It raises the creature to a substantial position very close to the Self-deterministic view, and the gall rising in my throat at the thoughts is a little hard to handle. We are IN Christ, not AT Christ.

Since the O.T. saints were in Abraham's bosom aka Paradise before Christ had descended after His death and preached to them in that "prison" and then after His ascension, He brought Paradise and all the inhabitants with Him to the Father in Heaven, there was some form of eternal security & I believe it was this faith of the promised seed that was coming that would bring them to that better country, a city made by God.

Hebrews 11:5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God. 6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him. 7 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith. 8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went. 9 By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise: 10 For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.

11 Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed, and was delivered of a child when she was past age, because she judged him faithful who had promised. 12 Therefore sprang there even of one, and him as good as dead, so many as the stars of the sky in multitude, and as the sand which is by the sea shore innumerable. 13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. 14 For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country. 15 And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned. 16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.

I believe you can apply Hebrews 11:6 for how and why the O.T. saints were in Abraham's bosom aka Paradise.

 

[Arial]

Yes, agreed, but how does that translate to mean that he did not permanently indwell the believer before the New Covenant?

The Bible in the OT never states specifically that the Holy Spirit indwells anyone. It does specifically state that in the new covenant of believers. The indwelling is a part of the new covenant. In the OT we only see the Holy Spirit doing things---coming and going---but active in the ways in which the Holy Spirit is active even in the indwelling of new covenant believers. The one thing we do not see in the OT faithful is the sealing in Christ by the Holy Spirit.

What that means regarding the regeneration of OT saints I cannot say. The regeneration that brings one into the New Covenant through faith is a new birth in Christ, as opposed to in Adam. In Adam we are blind to spiritual truths. In Christ we see and embrace them. So regeneration is a part of the New Covenant, not the old.

In the Old Covenant a different way to trusting in God and learning of Him was given, that spoke of Christ in shadows and types. Did they still need to understand the spiritual elements in the law. I believe so. Could they do so without the Holy Spirit giving them this understanding anymore than we can? Probably not. Did He have to indwell them in order to do this? Probably not. Could He keep them unto salvation without indwelling them? Of course. He is God.

 

[CrowCross]

On occasion I have prayed that same prayer. And, though it shames me to say this, it is because I knew I was not listening to the counsel of the Holy Spirit according to His word, and going my own fleshly way. And my prayer was not because I thought God would remove the Holy Spirit from me, I know better. But it was in the sense that the Holy Spirit would back away from me and cease teaching me and being my help and interceding for me with the Father according to His will. It was not that I thought I would or could have the seal of/in Christ removed. That is not to say He would ever back away from me either other than corrective measures, but that was what was behind the prayer.

Possibly that was the case with David or something similar? Or also possibly because the Spirit was not in David but stood alongside of Him and David knew that he was dependant on the Spirit to love, keep, and know the law of God---to know God.

From what I understand in the OT the Spirit was given to specific individuals... prophets and such and David was one of them.

I think David was afraid of God removing the Spirit from Him and losing His office.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

Anyhow, I'd appreciate if any of you can convince me that it is possible for the OT saints, though Totally depraved, Unconditionally elected, to be regenerated,

That'd be silly!!! Of course the terms "Regenerated", and "Elected" are worthless since they have any number of meanings, depending on one's theological bias. Calvinists appear to believe that they, and they ALONE define them properly.

The simple FACT is the God can, and DOES communicate whenever He desires to with Humans, REGARDLESS Of their spiritual condition, and Calvinist "Total Depravity" isn't GOD'S WORD. it's nothing more that the Calvinist interpretation of what they THINK the Bible teaches, along with their own "theology about what it all means. God communicated with OLD Testament Saints WHO WERE NOT BORN AGAIN, since the Holy Spirit indwelled NOBODY until John 20:22. Remember John 14:17.