Is There A Main Heresy With Mormonism In Common With All Other Cults?

[makesends]

Concerning a comment on another site, that what I had said about meticulous causation could invoke Mormonism's notion that God 'rearranges' already existing matter, I said,

"Hardly. That implies that God is not First Cause, which is a logically (necessarily) corollary to Omnipotence. As I just finished saying in another thread, Reality does not encompass God, as though he was another resident, like us, within reality. Reality is, (to say it with cheap words), his 'invention'.

"Thus, if anything happens, it was by God's intent."

To the above, that member answered:

"Absolutely. The great heresy with Mormonism is not about the person and work of Joseph Smith or Brigham Young or any of its wacky rituals and expectations, but with the core concept of God. I once asked a pair of Mormon missionaries, if their "Heavenly Father" is a really old man with an enormously long white beard who sits in heaven, wringing his hands and hoping that people on earth would believe in him. To my great surprise, they agreed with that description. I then told them that God actually sits in the heavens and laughs at the infinitesimally puny efforts of humanity (Psalm 2:4)"​

​

Your thoughts? Comments?

 

[makesends]

The coincidence of this phenomenon I see as common to all theological falsehood, with the idea that all true theology has at its base the Doctrine of God (Proper), makes me wonder if this thread needs moved to Forums>Theology>Doctrine of God. I will wait and see if others agree with me about this being the basic heresy with all cults and divergent theologies.

 

[QVQ]

The Trinity
The Nicene Creed on most Christian Forums is affirmation of Christian Faith

The Nicene Creed and the traditional belief in the Trinity seem to be guardrails, fundamental concepts on which almost all Christian theology is anchored.
When the Trinity is denied, then the subsequent "theology" wanders off on weird tangents.

 

[makesends]

The Trinity
The Nicene Creed on most Christian Forums is affirmation of Christian Faith

The Nicene Creed and the traditional belief in the Trinity seem to be guardrails, fundamental concepts on which almost all Christian theology is anchored.
When the Trinity is denied, then the subsequent "theology" wanders off on weird tangents.

I can't deny that the nature of God, the person of God, the deeds of God, the purposes of God, are all involved in the definition and facts of the Trinity. Likewise, the Trinity is of no particular meaning apart from the Aseity of God.

 

[QVQ]

It is difficult to talk about the Trinity without obscuring the truth of it.
So I am going to state the following as a limited perspective, an aspect that may be relevent to the discussion

We cannot navigate or understand space without the structure of directions, north south, east west
I don't believe we can understand Theology correctly except through the structure of the Trinity

When something is necessary to understand something else, that something is a foundational Truth.

The truth of the Trinity is foundational to understanding theology. Without the Trinity, religion wanders off into theological weird space.

 

[makesends]

It is difficult to talk about the Trinity without obscuring the truth of it.
So I am going to state the following as a limited perspective, an aspect that may be relevent to the discussion

We cannot navigate or understand space without the structure of directions, north south, east west
I don't believe we can understand Theology correctly except through the structure of the Trinity

When something is necessary to understand something else, that something is a foundational Truth.

The truth of the Trinity is foundational to understanding theology. Without the Trinity, religion wanders off into theological weird space.

You have a point. Nevertheless, even without knowing there is a trinity: Who God is, as logically posited, or empirically shown in Romans 1 fashion, the Trinity is secondary in understanding, to the knowledge of God's existence and the necessary submission implied by who/what he is—his attributes.

 

[QVQ]

You have a point. Nevertheless, even without knowing there is a trinity: Who God is, as logically posited, or empirically shown in Romans 1 fashion, the Trinity is secondary in understanding, to the knowledge of God's existence and the necessary submission implied by who/what he is—his attributes.

Yes, and as stated in the OP, the error is in the fundamental misunderstanding of core concept of God.
Any and all religions have a core concept of God, His attributes and what is meant by submission.

What I am saying is there is a fundamental error, a missing stone in the foundation that leads to the wackiness.
That fundamental error has been identified by Christians as the corruption and/or denial of the Trinity as affirmed in the Nicene Creed.

 

[QVQ]

Reality does not encompass God, as though he was another resident, like us, within reality. Reality is, (to say it with cheap words), his 'invention'.

"Thus, if anything happens, it was by God's intent."

The Pelagians agreed with the Trinity supposedly because they did believe in Christ's divinity
But the Pelagians believed that man was born innocent and could achieve santification through free will.
That is a very subtle corruption of the Trinity as man is sufficient to a salvation that man does not need.

In that view, Christ is merely a resident, same as us, who was capable of being supremely Holy but not necessary to man other than as a good example or guide.
The Pelagians said, "Yes, Christ is God" and then demoted Him to irrelevancy.

The Mormon belief that God rearranges existing matter and that God is a glorified resurrected being who operates within the laws of nature to bring about His purposes is also a corruption of the Trinity as it introduces a concept of God, the Father, as subordintate to the Process creation. When God is a process that produces a process, then the entire concept of God is reduced to irrelevent.

The fundamental flaw, the wackiness is denial and corruption of the Trinity.
In the list of causes, that is the mark of cults and whatever subsequent wackiness is produced, it stems from a misunderstanding and/or misrepresentation of the Trinity.

 

[makesends]

The Pelagians agreed with the Trinity supposedly because they did believe in Christ's divinity
But the Pelagians believed that man was born innocent and could achieve santification through free will.
That is a very subtle corruption of the Trinity as man is sufficient to a salvation that man does not need.

In that view, Christ is merely a resident, same as us, who was capable of being supremely Holy but not necessary to man other than as a good example or guide.
The Pelagians said, "Yes, Christ is God" and then demoted Him to irrelevancy.

The Mormon belief that God rearranges existing matter and that God is a glorified resurrected being who operates within the laws of nature to bring about His purposes is also a corruption of the Trinity as it introduces a concept of God, the Father, as subordintate to the Process creation. When God is a process that produces a process, then the entire concept of God is reduced to irrelevent.

The fundamental flaw, the wackiness is denial and corruption of the Trinity.
In the list of causes, that is the mark of cults and whatever subsequent wackiness is produced, it stems from a misunderstanding and/or misrepresentation of the Trinity.

Good points. I had not previously thought it as specifically against the Doctrine of the Trinity, but simply against what the Bible says about God, who and what he is, and what he does (and how he does it).

 

[QVQ]

Removed by QVQ off topic

 

[makesends]

To understand God, who and what He is and what He does is as the Trinity.
There are books, one very famous one, "The Kingdom of Cults" written by theologians, scholars who examined "cults" and defined them.

On another thread @makesends stated, (paraphrase) "It is easier to define what the Trinity is not, rather than what it is."
(hope I captured that correctly)
And if I understand that quote correctly, it is exactly how I understand the Trinity. I know what it is not but what it is? I don't understand it at all although I recognize it as a truth about God. A necessary truth in His relationship to us. What the relationship is to Him I cannot say.

There isn't any analogy in creation for God and no relationship in creation analogous to the Trinity. Unfortunately most of our understanding of creation is anologue, " this is like that" and Trinity appears to be unique to God. (am I correct? If not, state an analogy in creation for the Trinity)

The closest man seems to have come to defining the Trinity is in Creeds, Nicene, Apostles and Constantinople 381

However, the theologians and scholars have developed the Doctine over many centuries as, correctly, a fundmental article of faith in the Christian Religion. And the book I mentioned is an exhaustive analysis of "cults."

Recently, a very dear friend of mine went home to heaven. Being a resident in this temporal life, I find myself, in order to try to get past the oddness of her absence, analyzing 'the facts', by trying to ground her person as who she was, here, or more specifically, who she was to me, how she seemed to me—not just personality, but how she affected me, how she sounded, the things she thought about, her particular sense of humor and so on.

Even though none of quite understands the Trinity, I think that those who get to know God, or who begin to know God —know him personally, that is— specially through Scripture study and pursuit of Christ, begin to see Trinity as necessary to what we can know about Him. It doesn't just fit observed fact; it is definitive of God. And it is definitive of God not only intellectually, nor emotionally, but as that Person to whom we hold.

Like so many other things true, it not only fits observed fact, but we begin to see it as necessary to Fact. God does not exist, if God is not a Trinity of persons.

Our relationship, our fellowship, our communion with him depends on it. If the Spirit of God does not live in me, if Christ had not risen, if the Father had not decreed, we are of all people the most to be pitied.

Indeed, those who worship angels or other creatures, and Christ-as-not-Almighty-God-Himself, and the Spirit of God as a mere force from God are ALL assuming a status of mankind as existing in and of himself, a free agent. These 'free agents' are the center of their universe.

 

[QVQ]

Like so many other things true, it not only fits observed fact, but we begin to see it as necessary to Fact. God does not exist, if God is not a Trinity of persons.

Our relationship, our fellowship, our communion with him depends on it. If the Spirit of God does not live in me, if Christ had not risen, if the Father had not decreed, we are of all people the most to be pitied.

Indeed, those who worship angels or other creatures, and Christ-as-not-Almighty-God-Himself, and the Spirit of God as a mere force from God are ALL assuming a status of mankind as existing in and of himself, a free agent. These 'free agents' are the center of their universe.

Yes, God reveals Himself in truth as triune to us
What that looks like to Him, what the actual "being of the relationship is, I don't think we can know.

We have relationships with other people. Your description of your relationship with one who has gone before is beautifully stated and analogous of the relationships we can have with God, Father Son and Holy Ghost

But our relationships are with Others.

The simple fact that God, Christ and the Holy Spirit are not "other" to each other is beyond our experience and therefore a "mystery." The Trinity, to us is 3 and distinct in some sense, but the Bible states "I and the Father are One."

(I have a thought that through in indwelling Holy Spirit we may have a small share, a taste of the "one" relationship with God
Hhowever as self interpretation and speculation, I am not putting that forth as gospel until I study that concept carefully)

 

[JesusFan]

Concerning a comment on another site, that what I had said about meticulous causation could invoke Mormonism's notion that God 'rearranges' already existing matter, I said,

"Hardly. That implies that God is not First Cause, which is a logically (necessarily) corollary to Omnipotence. As I just finished saying in another thread, Reality does not encompass God, as though he was another resident, like us, within reality. Reality is, (to say it with cheap words), his 'invention'.

"Thus, if anything happens, it was by God's intent."

To the above, that member answered:

"Absolutely. The great heresy with Mormonism is not about the person and work of Joseph Smith or Brigham Young or any of its wacky rituals and expectations, but with the core concept of God. I once asked a pair of Mormon missionaries, if their "Heavenly Father" is a really old man with an enormously long white beard who sits in heaven, wringing his hands and hoping that people on earth would believe in him. To my great surprise, they agreed with that description. I then told them that God actually sits in the heavens and laughs at the infinitesimally puny efforts of humanity (Psalm 2:4)"​

​

Your thoughts? Comments?

Their 3 great heresies are having a wrong God, and having a wrong Gospel

 

[makesends]

Their 3 great heresies are having a wrong God, and having a wrong Gospel

"3 great heresies"? Referring to the Trinity?

Anyhow, I agree with you. But is that something that all cults have in common with Mormonism? Would you not say other things about other cults? Or is that the MAIN heresy of them all?

And, do you see your answer to that as pointing to the notion that the Doctrine of God is basic or foundational to all other Doctrine?

 

[QVQ]

Addendum:
As to whether the "in dwelling" Holy Spirit can be "oneness with God" or anything akin to Jesus statement "I and the Father are One"
I am inclined to reject that on the principle that the Holy Spirit, wherever He may reside, is still Other to the residence. The Holy Spirit is not "other" only in relationship to Himself, God.

An analogy. I may listen to music on headphones. Even though the music is "in my head" that does not make me the music itself nor does it make me a rock star.
So the in dwelling Holy Spirit does not make me an original prophet of god nor does it make me equal to Jesus, as becoming one with God.

That is another hallmark of cults: A charimatic leader who is seen to be an original prophet or interpreter and to be in special communication with God. (again the corruption of the Doctrine of the Trinity)

 

[Rella]

The Trinity
The Nicene Creed on most Christian Forums is affirmation of Christian Faith

The Nicene Creed and the traditional belief in the Trinity seem to be guardrails, fundamental concepts on which almost all Christian theology is anchored.
When the Trinity is denied, then the subsequent "theology" wanders off on weird tangents.

The Nicene Creed and the traditional belief in the Trinity seem to be guardrails, fundamental concepts on which almost all Christian theology is anchored.
When the Trinity is denied, then the subsequent "theology" wanders off on weird tangents.

A statement of truth, truly stated... Thank you for your profound insight.

May I use this last statement in another forum giving credit to you? I think this is quite a worthy idea for a debate,

 

[QVQ]

The Nicene Creed and the traditional belief in the Trinity seem to be guardrails, fundamental concepts on which almost all Christian theology is anchored.
When the Trinity is denied, then the subsequent "theology" wanders off on weird tangents.

A statement of truth, truly stated... Thank you for your profound insight.

May I use this last statement in another forum giving credit to you? I think this is quite a worthy idea for a debate,

Yes, of course.
And thank you

 

[JesusFan]

"3 great heresies"? Referring to the Trinity?

Anyhow, I agree with you. But is that something that all cults have in common with Mormonism? Would you not say other things about other cults? Or is that the MAIN heresy of them all?

And, do you see your answer to that as pointing to the notion that the Doctrine of God is basic or foundational to all other Doctrine?

All "biblical" Cults, such as Sda, Mormon, Sda all have some common traits, such as a wrong doctrine on God nature, the Gospel, as they all would deny Pauline Justification, holding to extra biblical authority, such as others books or claiming that their leaders/founders were inspired By God to speak for him in their group as a Prophet/Apostle

 

[JesusFan]

Addendum:
As to whether the "in dwelling" Holy Spirit can be "oneness with God" or anything akin to Jesus statement "I and the Father are One"
I am inclined to reject that on the principle that the Holy Spirit, wherever He may reside, is still Other to the residence. The Holy Spirit is not "other" only in relationship to Himself, God.

An analogy. I may listen to music on headphones. Even though the music is "in my head" that does not make me the music itself nor does it make me a rock star.
So the in dwelling Holy Spirit does not make me an original prophet of god nor does it make me equal to Jesus, as becoming one with God.

That is another hallmark of cults: A charimatic leader who is seen to be an original prophet or interpreter and to be in special communication with God. (again the corruption of the Doctrine of the Trinity)

All cults deny Trinity, as they deny deity of Jesus