Was the Spirit of God Indwelling the Redeemed before Pentecost?

[Eleanor]

I do not believe Paul is talking about the authorship of the code.

Are you sure he is not referring to the Holy Spirit in 2 Co 3:6,
keeping in mind that the entire Trinity is involved in all that each divine person does, it's only one God.

2 Co 3:6: - "He made us competent as ministers of a New Covenant--not of the letter (Old Covenant), but of the Spirit (New Covenant)."
The word is "Spirit." Who else would that be but the Holy Spirit?

God gave the law directly to Moses. The letter Paul refers to is the written code----the letters in it. God says you shall not commit adultery. The written letter.

Agreed. . ."the letter" refers to the Old Covenant Mosaic law, while "the Spirit" refers to the New Covenant.
The letter kills because the Old Covenant law condemns all those under it, while the Holy Spirit gives life in the New Covenant by Jesus' atoning work on the cross.

 

[fastfredy0]

Isn't it true that Compatibalism means...

God did it %100
Man did it %100

%100 × %100 = 1

Just as Jesus is %100 Man and %100 God, in 1 person...

Two %100's are 1 without mixing, and are Inseparable...

Your definition sounds more like the definition of the "hypostatic union".

Compatibilism claims that every person chooses according to his or her greatest desire. In other words, people will always choose what they want-- and what they want is determined by (and consistent with) their moral nature. “Classical theists affirm compatibilistic freedom for humans in that you are free so long as you act on your desires, but your desires are determined. In this conception of freedom God can perfectly guarantee that humans do exactly what God desires in every circumstance. All God has to do is ensure that our strongest desire in any instance is what God wants. Whatever we do is precisely what God wanted us to do in that instance.” John Sanders

 

[ReverendRV]

Your definition sounds more like the definition of the "hypostatic union".

Compatibilism claims that every person chooses according to his or her greatest desire. In other words, people will always choose what they want-- and what they want is determined by (and consistent with) their moral nature. “Classical theists affirm compatibilistic freedom for humans in that you are free so long as you act on your desires, but your desires are determined. In this conception of freedom God can perfectly guarantee that humans do exactly what God desires in every circumstance. All God has to do is ensure that our strongest desire in any instance is what God wants. Whatever we do is precisely what God wanted us to do in that instance.” John Sanders

Yes, I base my opinion of the Will of God and the Will of Man on the Hypostatic Union; the Wills are a Hypostasis. It was this way with Jesus, "Not my Will but thy Will be done"...

 

[Eleanor]

So YOU are the one who has it right, and not the Calvinists. Good luck with that!

Not to mention his declaring that God's words "regenerated" and "elected" are worthless.

 

[Arial]

Are you sure he is not referring to the Holy Spirit in 2 Co 3:6,
keeping in mind that the entire Trinity is involved in all that each divine person does, it's only one God.

2 Co 3:6: - "He made us competent as ministers of a New Covenant--not of the letter (Old Covenant), but of the Spirit (New Covenant)."
The word is "Spirit." Who else would that be be but the Holy Spirit.

You seem to be forgetting that I never brought up this passage in connection to what I was saying about the spirit of the law. This was my original post from which this conversation began.

I believe He did not indwell an entire group of people as He does after the crucifixion and resurrection. This idea comes from two places off the top of my head at the moment. Psalm 51: 11 Cast me not away from your presence, and take not your Holy Spirit from me.

John 20:21-22 So Jesus said to them again, "Peace be with you, as the Father has sent Me, I also send you." And when He has said this, He breathed on them and said to them,"Receive the Holy Spirit."

We see in the OT the Holy Spirit equipping certain individuals for certain tasks, and leading them in that task. Among other things. After Pentecost the Holy Spirit indwells all believers and continually works in them to know and do the will of God. God, it seems to me, would have to regenerate anyone who believes and trusts Him to the level of the OT saints, since He also says "no one seeks me." The difference is that it was not all Israel, and it was attached to the Law which was the standard God established for a specific community. Some learned the spirit of the law, and spiritual things are only spiritually understood, and were obedient, though not perfectly, to that as well as the letter.

In red is the portion you responded to where you stated that there is no such thing as the spirit of the law. Which prompted me to present the Bible speaking of the law being spiritual in Romans. That is when you brought 2 Cor 3:6 in and the discussion became about that passage and not the OP. I would be happy to continue that discussion elsewhere, no doubt it is a good one, but in this OP it goes off topic.

 

[Eleanor]

As I understand it Abraham was called on to believe 'natural promises' (things he could naturally see), given by a supernatural God...

Genesis 15:4-6 NKJV
And behold, the word of the LORD came to him, saying, "This one shall not be your heir, but one who will come from your own body shall be your heir." [5] Then He brought him outside and said, "Look now toward heaven, and count the stars if you are able to number them." And He said to him, "So shall your descendants be." [6] And he believed in the LORD, and He accounted it to him for righteousness.

I don't believe there needs to be a spiritual rebirth to grasp 'natural' promises.

It's not about "grasping" them, it's about believing in and trusting on them. That requires a work of God.

John 3:12 NKJV
If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things?

 

[Eleanor]

Abraham was justified when he believed God. Is there something we need to add?

As a matter of fact, there is: believe is more than just intellectual assent, it is to have faith in and to trust on, to count on.

 

[Arial]

Not to mention his declaring that God's words "regenerated" and "elected" are worthless.

From other things I have read from @Bob Carabbio, he seems to be dismissive of theology as not important, when imo every doctrine in order to carry the weight of truth must have a study of God. Doctrines must agree with who God reveals Himself to be in the Bible.

 

[Eleanor]

You seem to be forgetting that I never brought up this passage in connection to what I was saying about the spirit of the law. This was my original post from which this conversation began.

Yeah. . .you're right about that.
Many take 2 Co 3:6 to teach a "letter of the law" and a "spirit of the law" (nowhere found in Scripture) in contra-distinction.
Your use of that phraseology led me to think you were one of them.

In red is the portion you responded to where you stated that there is no such thing as the spirit of the law. Which prompted me to present the Bible speaking of the law being spiritual in Romans. That is when you brought 2 Cor 3:6 in and the discussion became about that passage and not the OP. I would be happy to continue that discussion elsewhere, no doubt it is a good one, but in this OP it goes off topic.

Got it! Thanks.

 

[Arial]

But if I went with this, I would have to conclude that they are not only NOT saved by faith generated by the Spirit of God —a continuous faith— but only by the kind of faith that any adherent of any religion can have.

Why would you have to conclude that?

The fact that a thing is not mentioned doesn't mean that it is not there. To me, if I was to extrapolate the necessary implications of what you are saying, theirs was a different gospel. The very essence of salvific faith is God himself. Not just as the object of our faith but the means—the beginning and the end.

It is not a different gospel. It is a different covenant. The old covenant works in one way, the new another. God is working through covenants. The old covenant can not be the same as the new for Christ had not yet come as man, had not died, had not been resurrected, and not ascended. That does not mean He was not there in the old covenant as the second person of the Trinity, only that He had not yet become incarnate. ANd it does not mean that the Holy Spirit was not doing the same things then as He is doing now, but not in exactly the same way. In the covenant with Israel, the sign of the covenant was circumcision. That did not save but it gave access to God through the continuous sacrifices. In the new covenant the sign is a circumcised heart, God Himself placing one into His covenant of redemption.

Nevertheless, salvation has always been through faith---trust in God, which can only come from a circumcised heart, and only God can circumcise a heart. In the old covenant the covenant itself did not circumcise a heart, but made a way to God, which man on his own does not have. In the new covenant there is one way to God----through/in Christ. Prior to the new covenant, and prior to the Sinai covenant, and during it, faith was shown by God giving command and the person believing Him even to the point of a willingness to sacrifice his own son (Abraham).

So, back to the question of did the Holy Spirit indwell and regenerate believers in the OT. The Father has always been the Father, the Son has always been the Son, the Holy Spirit has always been the Holy Spirit. And they have always been doing the specific things that they are doing. The covenant of redemption takes place within the Godhead before the foundation of the world. And in that covenant each person of the Trinity is doing certain aspects. In relation to the new covenant and the gathering of the covenant people, the Father sends the Son to do the work of redemption, the Son comes and does that work and returns to the Father, and the Holy Spirit is sent to regenerate, seal, teach, intercede according to the will of the Father, equip etc. those the Father is giving to Christ.

The Holy Spirit is always doing what He is sent to do. For me, that is all I need to know about it. At least at this point I do not see the Bible giving specifics on indwelling or even the NT concept of regeneration. I know it is all of God and none of man for any who are saved.

 

[Arial]

Yeah. . .you're right about that.
Many take 2 Co 3:6 to teach a "letter of the law" and a "spirit of the law" (nowhere found in Scripture) in contra-distinction.
Your use of that phraseology led me to think you were one of them.

Got it! Thanks.

I had to do that (to myself really) because I was about to get carried away into our discussion, more than I had already done, and realized the oops. But for the record, I do not disagree with you on 2 Cor.

 

[makesends]

@makesends ... almost seems like the Calvinists on this forum do not see God as the cause of people's faith and God as the cause of their continued sanctification when it comes to O.T. saints. (If I'm reading the implications correctly).

I think some of them tend toward mere attendance of precepts and not implications. They have not thought it out, in other words. These would likely consider TULIP or at least the WCF and probably Calvin himself to be of some referential authority. That may sound harsh, but all I mean by that is like I said, that they cling to Calvinism/Reformed Theology's mere mentions, while seeking to understand its implications, instead of seeking to learn what Scripture says concerning the principles and tenets that Calvinism/Reformed Theology has extracted from Scripture. —And, I easily admit, that may be habitual. That is, that many of those on this site do that habitually, though they have thought quite a bit farther than I have, chasing those implications and derivatives.

As @Josheb said, Calvinism is not monolithic. I am a long way from the first to come to the realization that salvific (and subsequent) faith is not generated by the believer, but by God himself.

 

[Eleanor]

From other things I have read from @Bob Carabbio, he seems to be dismissive of theology as not important, when imo
every doctrine in order to carry the weight of truth must have a study of God. Doctrines must agree with who God reveals Himself to be in the Bible.

As for me, when I studied Scripture to form my understanding, I placed no outside requirement on it. For example,
God reveals himself to be love, and there was plenty there that did not meet my personal standard in that regard. . .it mattered not.
Doctrine had to agree only with the word of God written, in context and agreement with all Scripture.
I assiduously let it speak for itself, let it say what it said, no matter how contrary to my personal disposition.
And the more Scripture I studied, the more my mind came into agreement with those things to which I objected.

Now it helped that I was acquainted with systematic theology, which gave me a frame on which to hang it, organize it.
But when it came to its teaching, I let Scripture say what it said and went from there.
I came from that study with a theology that was somewhat new to me, some of it staggering, causing me to seriously wonder if I had divided the word correctly.
A couple of years later, I discovered the Westminster Confession of Faith and, much to my delight and relief, learned that my understanding of Scripture was indeed Biblical. What joy!

I say all this to say that I have only one authority for God's truth, his word written. I have no other standard to which doctrine must subscribe.
I do not bring Scripture to bear on my theology, Scripture is the only source of my theology. It is my only measure of all theology.
I am not free to reject, set aside or overlook any Scriptural teaching because I prefer my own view regarding it.
All must be in total agreement with all Scripture, understood in agreement with itself, if it is to be true. Whether or not it agrees with my personal notions is irrelevant. But I must admit that I no longer have any personal notions not in agreement with the WCF, except on divorce.

 

[makesends]

Why would you have to conclude that?

Because the faith the Spirit of God generates at the new birth is continuous, living. Not a one-hit, and leave-it-alone sort of thing. The person NEEDS the indwelling, to be re-born. It is living IN Christ, not just AT Christ, is one way to put it.

It is not a different gospel. It is a different covenant. The old covenant works in one way, the new another. God is working through covenants. The old covenant can not be the same as the new for Christ had not yet come as man, had not died, had not been resurrected, and not ascended. That does not mean He was not there in the old covenant as the second person of the Trinity, only that He had not yet become incarnate. ANd it does not mean that the Holy Spirit was not doing the same things then as He is doing now, but not in exactly the same way.

Now, that last, I can accept.

In the covenant with Israel, the sign of the covenant was circumcision. That did not save but it gave access to God through the continuous sacrifices. In the new covenant the sign is a circumcised heart, God Himself placing one into His covenant of redemption.

Nevertheless, salvation has always been through faith---trust in God, which can only come from a circumcised heart, and only God can circumcise a heart. In the old covenant the covenant itself did not circumcise a heart, but made a way to God, which man on his own does not have. In the new covenant there is one way to God----through/in Christ. Prior to the new covenant, and prior to the Sinai covenant, and during it, faith was shown by God giving command and the person believing Him even to the point of a willingness to sacrifice his own son (Abraham).

So, back to the question of did the Holy Spirit indwell and regenerate believers in the OT. The Father has always been the Father, the Son has always been the Son, the Holy Spirit has always been the Holy Spirit. And they have always been doing the specific things that they are doing. The covenant of redemption takes place within the Godhead before the foundation of the world. And in that covenant each person of the Trinity is doing certain aspects. In relation to the new covenant and the gathering of the covenant people, the Father sends the Son to do the work of redemption, the Son comes and does that work and returns to the Father, and the Holy Spirit is sent to regenerate, seal, teach, intercede according to the will of the Father, equip etc. those the Father is giving to Christ.

The Holy Spirit is always doing what He is sent to do. For me, that is all I need to know about it. At least at this point I do not see the Bible giving specifics on indwelling or even the NT concept of regeneration. I know it is all of God and none of man for any who are saved.

Let me ask specifically, then: Salvation in the Old Testament was by faith, which was impossible to the natural man? And so the change wrought in him by God was by the Spirit of God within him in some necessary sense, no? —The faith and the change from "natural man" both
being the gift of God, and not of works? Monergism still applied in the OT the same as in the NT?

To me, this deals with the very root and essence of the gospel.

To the side, though, if John 3 chides Nicodemus for not knowing about regeneration, then it is shown in some way, in the OT. Or did Nicodemus and his like have some other divine authority from which to understand spiritual reality?

 

[makesends]

There does seem to be a difference between indwelling and filling.

Would you say David had the HS indwelling him....pentecost style...or filling him? Or something different.

To my way of thinking, the indwelling was not Pentecost-style —THAT was filling, but ok. Terminology, lol. My point is that what produces faith, is the Spirit of God given by grace, generates that faith, by which we are saved. And it is a continuous thing. The Spirit does not leave or come and go, in that sense —I don't see how that would be possible and that faith remain his doing in us, and not our own product.

I like the way you put that.

 

[Josheb]

Thank you. Yes, agreed. "Indwelling" is only a good way to put what happens when the Spirit of God takes up residence in the believer, and is the means of regeneration, and, consequently the means of salvific faith, repentance, etc.

.....AND God indwells those He chooses in many diverse ways. The apostles were indwelt, inspired, and empowered by the Holy Spirit when they went out to preach, seeing people healed and demons flee, yet they had not yet experienced either the resurrection of the Son or Pentecost. Likewise, Peter makes it quite clear no prophecy occurred except by the carrying of the Spirit.

The best way, imo, to understand the Old Testament experience of regeneration is at the end of Hebrews 11. After describing many individuals who obtained righteousness by faith the author concludes...

Hebrews 11:39-40
And all these, having gained approval through their faith, did not receive what was promised, because God had provided something better for us, so that apart from us they would not be made perfect.

Some interpret this to say they had not received the promised regeneration, but I think that is a mistaken reading because regeneration isn't a promise. The New Testament cites many things promised. If we include all the mentions of what is inherited (which is a form of promise) we find there are about four dozen cases to examine. Many of them are references to the promises made to Abraham and his seed (Jesus) so the OT is necessary and informative, but it is the OT that explains the promises made to the OT people of faith. In short, they gained God's approval, but they were not made complete except in the body of Christ.

 

[makesends]

From other things I have read from @Bob Carabbio, he seems to be dismissive of theology as not important, when imo every doctrine in order to carry the weight of truth must have a study of God. Doctrines must agree with who God reveals Himself to be in the Bible.

In Bob's defense, his mocking style seems to be directed toward those who hold to any one particular flavor, rather than against doctrine in general. (Not that that is much better, but...)

 

[fastfredy0]

Yes, I base my opinion of the Will of God and the Will of Man on the Hypostatic Union; our Wills are a Hypostasis. It was this way with Jesus, "Not my Will but thy Will be done"...

Well, the way I see it is: God determines/creates our will according to His will ... so our will is just the second cause ... which is to say our will is God's will for we cannot will what our wills will will ... hmmm, tongue twister? *giggle*

• Exodus 14:4 And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and he will pursue them. But I will gain glory for myself through Pharaoh and all his army, and the Egyptians will know that I am the LORD.
• Numbers 22:38 “Have I now any power at all to say anything? The word that God puts in my mouth, that shall I speak.”
• 4 Yet to this day the Lord has not given you a heart and mind to understand, nor eyes to see, nor ears to hear.
• Job 23:14a “For He performs what is planned (appointed) for me,
• Psalm 33:10 The Lord brings the counsel of the nations to nought; He makes the thoughts and plans of the peoples of no effect.
• Psalm 33:15 He Who fashions the hearts of them all, Who considers all their doings.
• Psalm 139:16 Your eyes saw my unformed substance, and in Your book all the days [of my life] were written before ever they took shape, when as yet there was none of them.
• Yahda, yahda

 

[makesends]

.....AND God indwells those He chooses in many diverse ways. The apostles were indwelt, inspired, and empowered by the Holy Spirit when they went out to preach, seeing people healed and demons flee, yet they had not yet experienced either the resurrection of the Son or Pentecost. Likewise, Peter makes it quite clear no prophecy occurred except by the carrying of the Spirit.

The best way, imo, to understand the Old Testament experience of regeneration is at the end of Hebrews 11. After describing many individuals who obtained righteousness by faith the author concludes...

Hebrews 11:39-40
And all these, having gained approval through their faith, did not receive what was promised, because God had provided something better for us, so that apart from us they would not be made perfect.

That passage seems to me to be referring to no lack of completion in faith or regeneration, however. Time irrelevant, I think.

Some interpret this to say they had not received the promised regeneration, but I think that is a mistaken reading because regeneration isn't a promise.

Well, no, but it regeneration IS necessary, according to Calvinistic/Reformed thought, before faith is possible, no? So I don't see how their take is possible, if the OT saints died without being regenerated.

The New Testament cites many things promised. If we include all the mentions of what is inherited (which is a form of promise) we find there are about four dozen cases to examine. Many of them are references to the promises made to Abraham and his seed (Jesus) so the OT is necessary and informative, but it is the OT that explains the promises made to the OT people of faith. In short, they gained God's approval, but they were not made complete except in the body of Christ.

This may help me to skinny down what I believe regeneration/faith/indwelling is. Don't give up on me.

 

[makesends]

Well, the way I see it is: God determines/creates our will according to His will ... so our will is just the second cause ... which is to say our will is God's will for we cannot will what our wills will will ... hmmm, tongue twister? *giggle*

• Exodus 14:4 And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and he will pursue them. But I will gain glory for myself through Pharaoh and all his army, and the Egyptians will know that I am the LORD.
• Numbers 22:38 “Have I now any power at all to say anything? The word that God puts in my mouth, that shall I speak.”
• 4 Yet to this day the Lord has not given you a heart and mind to understand, nor eyes to see, nor ears to hear.
• Job 23:14a “For He performs what is planned (appointed) for me,
• Psalm 33:10 The Lord brings the counsel of the nations to nought; He makes the thoughts and plans of the peoples of no effect.
• Psalm 33:15 He Who fashions the hearts of them all, Who considers all their doings.
• Psalm 139:16 Your eyes saw my unformed substance, and in Your book all the days [of my life] were written before ever they took shape, when as yet there was none of them.
• Yahda, yahda

Hence that take that some give it, that God wrote a story or a play, and we are the characters in the story. Lol, I suppose the notion some of late have considered, that this we think is the omni more closely resembles a simulation than a reality, fits there too.