Was Adam imparted free will from the beginning of Creation?

[Ghada]

God is the only Person whose will is autonomous.

God is the first and last eternal Person with autonomous will, which is His spiritual image. But when creating spiritual beings in His image, He is no longer the only person with autonomous will.

False teachings always descend into argumentative folly, such as God's eternal image must be separated and exclusive of His autonomous will, so that man created in His image does not also have His autonomous will.

Natural beasts have no free will autonomous from nature. They do only what nature and God's wills them to do, without freedom of choice to do otherwise. Man having no free autonomous will is the natural man's rejection of the spiritual man created in God's image.

Angels also have autonomous will, and is the first creation of God to independently lift up his will against God.

Isa 14:12How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.

Autonomous will is proven by independently rebelling against God. Spiritual autonomy of will is the power to choose indepently of God, whether angel or man.

Gen 3:4And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: {3:5} For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

However, autonomy of will is not autonomy of judgment. The eternal power of the free will is not eternally free from God's law of judgment.

Angels and men can act like gods independent of God's will, but they cannot abide forever like gods without His judgment.

Heb{9:27} And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

Autonomy of will continues after the judgment, but willing independence from God becomes forever autonomously apart from the light and felloswhip of God and the Lamb dwelling among men.

Jde 1:12These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots; Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.

2 Tim 1:7Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

 

[Ghada]

Not quite. 1 Corinthians 15:48 does not state what you state it states. Romans 8:29 explicitly states that it is God working in the saint according to His purpose.

With wholehearted love and consent of His sons working together.

Rom 8:28And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

1Co 3:9For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building.

Jhn 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are...And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:

By newbirth of the Spirit through the faith of Jesus Christ, God's will and our will freely become one, as by marriage, with the same purpose of one flesh to live righteously and holy in all our manners.

Eph 5:30 For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones. For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh. This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.

Col 1:27To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

Those who deny the free will of man not only teach men behaving as brute beasts without having the spiritual image of God, but also teach against the mystery of Christ and His church. They do not preach a consenting marriage by willing love that abides faithful, but only a hateful bondage without power nor will to break.

Nor is the marriage of Christ and His church a spirit or demon possession, working his own purpose by domination, without any will nor consent of the possessed person.

2Co 1:24Not for that we have dominion over your faith, but are helpers of your joy: for by faith ye stand.

1Co 11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.

Nor is the body of Christ in bondage without power of will under a lording Head. That being the false accusation of the rebellious against God's will becoming spiritually one with man's by love from the heart.

The head does not act independent of the body. God does not act independent of the will of the Son, nor the Son indendently of His own body members.

1Pe 5:1 Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a rea, Neither as being lords over God's heritage, but being ensamples to the flock.

Christ the Head ministers the same willingness to the body, not as dominating lords over a body.

No doubt the lords preaching service to Christ by restraint alone, also preach the same kind of obedience to themselves in their own churches.

If someone can persuade the believer that he has no freedom in the will and purpose of God, then he can equally be persuaded he has no freedom in the will and purpose of the overlord minister.

Act 17:11These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

The noble will exercises the freedom of will given to every man by creation in God's whole image, not just a partial image excluding His autonomous will...

 

[Ghada]

What scripture doesn't state can fill many forums of posts.

Which is why some fill volumes about how God does not give man freewill, and man has no freewill, when no Scripture says so.

Argumentum ex silentio only applies to the doctrine of no man having freewill on earth. Which is why no one can ever quote Scripture saying so.

Argumentum ex silentio does not apply to Scripture saying man has freewill from God. Which is why they must add even more volumes to change and deny it, which becomes a false argumentum ad logicam.

Which only makes the argument against God giving man freewill argumentum ad ignorantiam, because even if Scripture does not say God gives men freewill, then their argument would still be excluded by argumentum ex silentio, since no Scripture says God does not give man freewill.

That's why it's so much easier and righteous just to quote what God does say, and take Him at His word:

Neh 8:8So they read in the book in the law of God distinctly, and gave the sense, and caused them to understand the reading.

 

[Ghada]

Scripture does state God has a will, and to imply God's will is in any way restricted by external conditions or circumstances is irrational because that would instantaneously mean God is not almighty.

No, that would mean Jesus Christ is come in the flesh.

External circumstance is not God's commandment and law, which is wholly internal and subject to judgment.

God's autonomous will is not restricted by His natural creation, like man in the flesh. But the power of His free will is ruled by His own love, commandment, and law. Which Jesus Christ in the flesh showed to all men without sin.

And which His begotten sons also live in the flesh.

1Jo 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Scripture is not saying that sons of God have no power nor free will to lust and turn back to sin and trespass. Rather the Scripture says no son can choose to lust and sin, with God's seed remaining in us. We have freedom and power to choose to return to doing works of the flesh, but we have no power and liberty of will to remain born of God with lust and sin.

Jhn 1:12But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name. Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

All sons have autonomy of will, but not autonomy of sonship. All men have autonomy of will, but not autonomy of judgment.

 

[fastfredy0]

Autonomous will is proven by independently rebelling against God.

So, why did your "autonomous will" chose to have a sin nature?

Why don't you use your "autonomous will" to eliminate your sin nature?

Why did 100% of 8,000,000,000 people living today all use their "autonomous will" to chose to have a sin nature?

 

[Ghada]

Parables are prohecy.

Prophecy is not parable.

Making prophecy into parable makes God a liar, by not coming to pass on earth as prophecied.

Remember the prescription compare the temporal historical seen

Parables are not seen events. Prophecy is events that will be seen.

Your prescription is for making the Bible a book of parables only, not of sure prophecy that will come to pass on earth.

Parables teach us how to walk by faith (the unseen eternal things of Christ)

Walking by faith is not a parable unseen on earth.

Faith unseen is dead to God and man.

Without them Christ hte teacher spoke not .

Only to them that only want parables, fables, and other stories to ponder and argue about.

1Ti 1:4Neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister questions, rather than godly edifying which is in faith: so do.

But to His obedient disciples He preaches true doctrine and prophecy of godly living.

It seem you are confused to whose powerful faith

Powerful faith is lived, not made about parables only.

Heb 10:38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.

You are turning things upside down. We enter his rest from (not by) our own unbelief (no faith) .

Entering into His rest is from our own works, by repentance from dead works.

Repentance from 'unbelief' is nonsense, if it is not from works.

Isa 55:7Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.

Eze 33:11Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

 

[makesends]

God is the first and last eternal Person with autonomous will, which is His spiritual image. But when creating spiritual beings in His image, He is no longer the only person with autonomous will.

Define "autonomous" as you use it here.

If all it means is self-willed, then you are right. (After all, we do decide, and our decisions are real, with real—even eternal—consequences). But the notion that our wills are not caused to do what they do is logically vapid (to put it nicely). Even if you want to claim that God made us in his image and THEREFORE we too are autonomous, it is still CAUSED, in every detail.

There is no such thing as causation by chance, nor can there be more than one completely autonomous being. "There are no little first-causes (uncaused causers) running about the planet."

Natural beasts have no free will autonomous from nature. They do only what nature and God's wills them to do, without freedom of choice to do otherwise. Man having no free autonomous will is the natural man's rejection of the spiritual man created in God's image.

Demonstrate this difference. So far this is just assertion, and I can only guess from what presumptions this conclusion is drawn. If you think you can ever do anything that God did not plan specifically in every detail, then you think God depends on you, and not the other way around. THAT is not God.

Autonomous will is proven by independently rebelling against God. Spiritual autonomy of will is the power to choose indepently of God, whether angel or man.

How does rebellion prove autonomy? I'm not saying that rebellion is not attempted autonomy, and I'm not saying that it isn't literally going-against/throwing-off 'the rules'— (I put this here, just in case you want to get clever with the word "nomos"); I'm thinking you probably are familiar with the notion of there being at least 2 ways Scripture uses "God's will". Reformed/Calvinism names the most obvious 2 in several different ways —I usually go with God's Command, and God's Plan ("God's Decree"). Rebellion against God is always at least rebelling against his command, but even when, at enmity with God, it is intended to obstruct or reject his decree, it is NEVER successful in doing so —in fact, it is by use of that rebellion, among other things, that God accomplishes his plans.

 

[Rella]

Was Adam imparted free will from the beginning of Creation?​

I say yes.

For I would not believe our loving heavenly Father would have started mankind by pre-determining ( selecting) him to sin right off the bat by ignoring what he was told.

 

[makesends]

Was Adam imparted free will from the beginning of Creation?​

I say yes.

For I would not believe our loving heavenly Father would have started mankind by pre-determining ( selecting) him to sin right off the bat by ignoring what he was told.

Can you explain how it is possible to cause something uncaused?

Can you explain how it was God's deliberate plan for wicked men to put Jesus Christ to death by nailing him to the cross, without also intending for Adam to sin?

 

[Mr GLee]

Was Adam imparted free will from the beginning of Creation?​

I say yes.

For I would not believe our loving heavenly Father would have started mankind by pre-determining ( selecting) him to sin right off the bat by ignoring what he was told.

Proverbs 18:21 Death and life are in the power of the tongue: and they that love it shall eat the fruit thereof.

Adam was given a will subject to the letter of the law Death. Thou shalt not or your will die .

Romans 7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

The letter of the law along with the daily sufferings of hell will be tossed in the fiery judgment .The second death .The death to death itself.

 

[fastfredy0]

Was Adam imparted free will from the beginning of Creation?​

I say yes.

For I would not believe our loving heavenly Father would have started mankind by pre-determining ( selecting) him to sin right off the bat by ignoring what he was told.

If God knows all things then He knew when He created man, man would sin. Therefore, by creating man God predetermined Adam would sin and Adam could do nothing to stop it. The die was cast before Adam was born.

God is almighty. When the elect sinners get to heaven they will sin no longer. God predetermined this and He could have just as easily ensured that Adam did not sin.

You're injecting your personal opinions of how God should act to fit your definition of who God is. This contradicts the facts.

 

[Rella]

If God knows all things then He knew when He created man, man would sin. Therefore, by creating man God predetermined Adam would sin and Adam could do nothing to stop it. The die was cast before Adam was born.

God is almighty. When the elect sinners get to heaven they will sin no longer. God predetermined this and He could have just as easily ensured that Adam did not sin.

You're injecting your personal opinions of how God should act to fit your definition of who God is. This contradicts the facts.

And then God chose to allow man to live 4000 plus years with no hope?

Why then did he send Jesus? For what purpose?

If there are "elect" sinners going to heaven.... why was Jesus needed?

Seems like A whole lot of people missed out before hand.

 

[fastfredy0]

You didn't address any of my posts ... despite that I will address your points.

And then God chose to allow man to live 4000 plus years with no hope?

The bible concurs with this.
Eph. 2:2 remember that at that time ye [Gentiles] were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world.
There are a few exceptions. I.E. Noah and family, the rest apparently are in hell

Why then did he send Jesus? For what purpose?

Scripture answers this. To redeem those chosen by found for God's glory.

If there are "elect" sinners.... why was Jesus needed.

I am not sure what "elect" sinners means. Everyone is a sinner and among them God has chosen to save some and that group is call the "elect". God determine that the method whereby He accomplishes his goals and God being perfect it would follow that the best way to save the elect would be Jesus on the cross, dying, being resurrected and imputing his righteousness to us and our sins to Him. Great bargain from our point of view.

A whole lot of people missed out before hand.

Yep. Billions are alive now and will not here the gospel. They too will miss out.

Again, I believe you have a non-scriptural concept of God in this manner. You appear to apply your definition of "fair" and draw conclusions from it. I believe scripture backs me up. You haven't used scripture to back your points up.

 

[Arial]

Why then did he send Jesus? For what purpose?

To conquer and destroy sin and death. To rid his creation of all evil and destruction that are a result of mankind's fall through Adam and redeem a people through his substitution to inhabit that new creation to dwell with. (Adam was the first human to sin, and all became sinful creatures. But he did not invent sin and he did not invent evil. It already existed as "the other side of the coin." Neither are creations. No up without a down. No evil without an ultimate good. God himself is the standard of good.)

And then God chose to allow man to live 4000 plus years with no hope?

No. Hope always exists because God's grace does. And the way has always been trust in God. The problem was that none could be perfectly righteous and it was evil (the result of sin) that must be conquered. Everything leading up to Christ's advent was just that---leading to it and all in God's perfect timing and plan. The law could set a standard and reveal God, but it could not destroy evil or change a man's sinful heart or behavior.

If there are "elect" sinners.... why was Jesus needed.

Because Jesus had to be one of us, (and God), and yet be without sin even in his nature, so that he might take out place, bearing our sin (which includes our nature to sin) so that God's just condemnation of sin would not be compromised. He took the punishment the elect deserved for them. Being without sin himself, death could not hold him and he rose again and returned to the Father as King and Priest, his righteousness counted as theirs, just as their sin had been imputed to him on the cross. In doing this, sin has no power to condemn them, and death has no power to hold them. Justice and mercy kiss. If we read the end of the story as seen in Is 11 and Rev 21, we see exactly what he has done and what will be manifested when he returns. And the elect must hear this good news and believe it. They must be regenerated in order to do so for the natural man is an enmity with God and cannot understand or believe. The Bible declares that it is through faith that we are joined to Christ, the second Adam, and it is through faith that we are justified, declared righteous. Fully and eternally reconciled to the holy God. It is a marvelous thing to behold in our hearts! This perfection and love of God, all things working together.

A whole lot of people missed out before hand.

A whole lot of people are still missing out. So?

 

[Rella]

You didn't address any of my posts ... despite that I will address your points.


The bible concurs with this.
Eph. 2:2 remember that at that time ye [Gentiles] were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world.
There are a few exceptions. I.E. Noah and family, the rest apparently are in hell



Scripture answers this. To redeem those chosen by found for God's glory.



I am not sure what "elect" sinners means. Everyone is a sinner and among them God has chosen to save some and that group is call the "elect". God determine that the method whereby He accomplishes his goals and God being perfect it would follow that the best way to save the elect would be Jesus on the cross, dying, being resurrected and imputing his righteousness to us and our sins to Him. Great bargain from our point of view.


Yep. Billions are alive now and will not here the gospel. They too will miss out.

Again, I believe you have a non-scriptural concept of God in this manner. You appear to apply your definition of "fair" and draw conclusions from it. I believe scripture backs me up. You haven't used scripture to back your points up.

You are right.

It just came as a real shock to me to have heard for decades that God loves... in that God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son.

It is apparent that according to scripture that God's creation was created for failure. As you said... only Noah made it at that time....

So eventually God realized that he had to provide Jesus? So that some would make it through?

I find it confusing and totally scary because if all my beliefs have been wrong.... I most likely am hell bound.

Thanks for the explanations.

 

[Mr GLee]

If God knows all things then He knew when He created man, man would sin. Therefore, by creating man God predetermined Adam would sin and Adam could do nothing to stop it. The die was cast before Adam was born.

God is almighty. When the elect sinners get to heaven they will sin no longer. God predetermined this and He could have just as easily ensured that Adam did not sin.

You're injecting your personal opinions of how God should act to fit your definition of who God is. This contradicts the facts.

As a Faithfull "Let there be Creator"

He knew the creation was subject to sin . . false pride .

No one is greater than the "let there be" and "it was God alone good".

The loving Law of faith understanding the unseen eternal things. .

Knowing mankind was subject to false pride serving a invisible God . He set up a temporal law under the letter the law of "death" .

Thou shall not add to the living word of God. . or the temporal spirit of given of father returns to Him and the body of death returns to dust blowing in the wind.

Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

Lucifer who was to protect the unseen glory of Christ. The father of lies. He made the false claim of fame that he was God. usurping the powerful glory of Christ, the father

Adding to the word (sola scriptura) the false prophecy "neither shall you touch it" Using Eve the weaker assignment as a priestess .

Satan using her as the false prophet. sent with false prohecy (neither shall you touch) . Adam to represent Christ not seen failed to protect his wife from false prophecy . She is used to represent the whole church the bride .

Using his two weapons of spiritual warfare. "One" Lust of the flesh the drawing power. . working . . . drawing to "Two" the lust of the eye. "two building blocks working as false pride .

1 John 2:16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

The garden parable hiding the tree in the center to represent the understanding of the gospel the mystery of faith (Christ) . Lucifer moved the deceived (Adam and Eve) twice .Flesh lust with things seen. . lust

The counterfeit of true faith. Christ in us working to both to reveal His will and do to it to Christ's good pleasure. The fruit of his righteousness .

Yoked with him our burden can be lighter with a future living hope beyond the grave . .

 

[Mr GLee]

The bible concurs with this.
Eph. 2:2 remember that at that time ye [Gentiles] were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world.
There are a few exceptions. I.E. Noah and family, the rest apparently are in hell

I would offer.

that time ye [Gentiles] were without Christ It was before God changed the name from deceiver Jacob to prince of Christ born agin believers Israel the bride.

God who is not a man as us is not a Racist.

Abel the martyr the second born to used to represent mankind must be born again . When murdered he was replaced with another second born Enos

.It was then that men empowered and began to cry out. . Having been born again.as sons of God .. . . . Marvel not but rather believe exercise work out the new born again faith .

 

[makesends]

You are right.

It just came as a real shock to me to have heard for decades that God loves... in that God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son.

It is apparent that according to scripture that God's creation was created for failure. As you said... only Noah made it at that time....

So eventually God realized that he had to provide Jesus? So that some would make it through?

I find it confusing and totally scary because if all my beliefs have been wrong.... I most likely am hell bound.

Thanks for the explanations.

Why would you think, (particularly if @fastfredy0 is right), that you are most likely hell bound, if your beliefs have been wrong? Your opinions don't save you. Your arrangements of facts, and comprehension of reality, do not save you. If your faith saves you, it is because it is given you by God, and is not generated by your own force of will. It is called "your" faith because it is inside you, and because you are carried along by it.

 

[fastfredy0]

It is apparent that according to scripture that God's creation was created for failure.

Well, failure from the point of view of some of us humans. Complete success from God's point of view. All His sheep will be saved. (John 6:39)

So eventually God realized that he had to provide Jesus? So that some would make it through?

God is all knowing and does not change so God never "eventually realizes" anything. Everything goes as He wants it to go. His ways are not our ways. Isaiah 55:8-9

I find it confusing and totally scary because if all my beliefs have been wrong.... I most likely am hell bound.

This topic is does not address knowledge that is critical to saving faith. If people went to hell for any incorrect theological belief then we are all going there (giggle). Job is in heaven and he got 'balled out' for how he thought God operated.

 

[fastfredy0]

Why would you think, (particularly if @fastfredy0 is right), that you are most likely hell bound, if your beliefs have been wrong? Your opinions don't save you. Your arrangements of facts, and comprehension of reality, do not save you. If your faith saves you, it is because it is given you by God, and is not generated by your own force of will. It is called "your" faith because it is inside you, and because you are carried along by it.

True enough.. but if God has given you saving faith then He has also given you something to believe in which, if you don't believe those particular facts then that it would indicate you are not saved. There is much disagreement on what the 'essential facts' are. Some people don't even think one has to know of Jesus to be saved for example.