Unconditional Election, Limited Atonement, and John 6:37

[makesends]

So, someone who chooses to come to Christ, his choice is invalid; and God's choice to condemn him will prevail over his decision to receive Christ.

Thus, Jesus casts out some of those who come to Him; which is contrary to scripture (John 6:37).

There you go with your bogus scenarios. You said, "So, someone who chooses to come to Christ, his choice is invalid; and God's choice to condemn him will prevail over his decision to receive Christ." No doubt the part I highlighted is to you a necessary conclusion, but you use false assumptions to get there. Many Calvinists would go so far as to say that God did not choose to condemn him—that what God did is choose him for reprobation. Some would not even claim God predestines anyone to reprobation. But all would tell you that God's predestination of a person does not prevail over anyone's decision to receive Christ. There is no conflict of wills going on. As has been shown you repeatedly, the decree of God results in the will of man to do precisely what God has decreed.

But perhaps even more to the point, the position (and this, too, by the decree of God) of unregenerate man, is from a nature of sin's corruption.
He did not choose to be trapped there, but he agrees with it wholeheartedly, and revels in it. Don't pretend he wants out and God won't let him!

 

[Arial]

If you don't know how to come to Christ, how will you come to Christ?

And, are we not saved when we come to Christ?

No one knows how to come to Christ before they do, and no one wants to come to Christ. According to the Bible people hear the voice of the Shepherd and they know His voice and the follow Him. And that is because God in His sovereignty and power and purpose has changed them inside, in the heart. He has opened their ears to hear. He has given them to Christ. It biblical terms it is called regeneration or the new birth. (John 3) We are all born in Adam, which means we are sinners who sin, and we cannot change that by our own flesh, or will or mind. Only God can do that. He takes us out of Adam and places us in Christ. This can be found in Romans chapters 1-9, in all its glory and detail.

The issue you have is that you can't get past thinking that faith comes first and is the cause of regeneration. Logic alone, given the words of God on the subject and the overall subject of who He is, and our condition in relation to Him, makes that backward and upside down view an impossibility.

We come to Christ because we are saved, and in the election of God, were always purposed to come to Him, and that is not of our own doing, lest any man should boast, it is a gift of God. He gives us to Christ and we are Christ's inheritance.

 

[makesends]

No one knows how to come to Christ before they do, and no one wants to come to Christ. According to the Bible people hear the voice of the Shepherd and they know His voice and the follow Him. And that is because God in His sovereignty and power and purpose has changed them inside, in the heart. He has opened their ears to hear. He has given them to Christ. It biblical terms it is called regeneration or the new birth. (John 3) We are all born in Adam, which means we are sinners who sin, and we cannot change that by our own flesh, or will or mind. Only God can do that. He takes us out of Adam and places us in Christ. This can be found in Romans chapters 1-9, in all its glory and detail.

The issue you have is that you can't get past thinking that faith comes first and is the cause of regeneration. Logic alone, given the words of God on the subject and the overall subject of who He is, and our condition in relation to Him, makes that backward and upside down view an impossibility.

We come to Christ because we are saved, and in the election of God, were always purposed to come to Him, and that is not of our own doing, lest any man should boast, it is a gift of God. He gives us to Christ and we are Christ's inheritance.

And therein we can see the deception that has been pervasive in the church centuries, now, that man's will is the turning point of salvation. My goodness, the hours spent on books and sermons explaining how that is even possible and how it results in eternal security! And how that what we do does not add to the value of what God has decreed and will bring to pass! And the relief of those like myself who realize they are completely at God's mercy.

 

[justbyfaith]

Wrong. You assume the false notion that there IS such a thing, which Romans 8 denies. They will not come to Christ, unless God has chosen them, and regenerated them. The faith by which we are saved is given us by God, not generated by us, but by God.

I would contend that we cannot come to Christ unless we are first drawn to Christ; which is not the same thing as regeneration.

If a person is regenerated before coming to Christ, then one does not need to come to Christ in order to be regenerated; for he is regenerated apart from coming to Christ.

Nevertheless the scripture teaches that there are things which we must do in order to be saved (Acts 16:31, Hosea 14:2, Romans 10:9-13, Acts 2:38-39).

 

[justbyfaith]

You insist on giving the believer the credit. You are looking at it backwards.

However, do you have any logical reasoning that refutes what I have been saying?

Because if you don't, then your saying that I am looking at it backwards is a subjective thing; I can just as accurately say the same thing about you.

 

[justbyfaith]

What man does is a result of what God has done. Man had no choice in his creation, and he always chooses according to his reprobation. You would add what man does to what God does. Because of Adam, man is corrupt, and he will always choose according to that corruption until God has changed his heart. That God has decreed it, is not caused by man. Man always wills what God has already decreed. God does not choose for them. God does cause that they choose as they do, and so they choose according to what they are.

I would contend that when a person is drawn to Christ, he is enabled to come to Christ and all hindrances are removed.

But that being drawn to Christ does not = being regenerated.

The person drawn to Christ is given an opportunity to receive Jesus as Lord and Saviour; and if he so receives Jesus he will then be regenerated.

 

[justbyfaith]

It seems to me that you don't get the concept, that what God has decreed, man always does accordingly, and chooses to do.

So, God is behind the murderer and rapist?

 

[justbyfaith]

Cant no one choose to come to Christ except they were chosen by God. Jn 6:44

44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

I contend concerning this scripture that it is saying that we cannot come to Christ unless we are drawn to Christ; but that being drawn to Christ does not = being regenerated or chosen by God.

Being drawn to Christ means that we are given an unhindered opportunity to receive or reject Christ.

If we receive Christ (as Saviour and as Lord) then we are regenerated.

If we do not receive Him, we are not regenerated.

Being drawn to Christ we are given an opportunity to receive Him.

 

[Arial]

And therein we can see the deception that has been pervasive in the church centuries, now, that man's will is the turning point of salvation. My goodness, the hours spent on books and sermons explaining how that is even possible and how it results in eternal security! And how that what we do does not add to the value of what God has decreed and will bring to pass! And the relief of those like myself who realize they are completely at God's mercy.

There are two books (well more than two but I mention two as I have been going over them again recently) that if you have not read, your might enjoy. They give insight into exactly what the mindset is and the complete illogic of it and the blindness of those who have built an image of God they can handle to hear anything else. Both are by James White.
The Potter's Freedom and Debating Calvinism. The first deals with Norman Geisler's book Chosen But Free, the second a debate between White and David Hunt.

 

[Arial]

I contend concerning this scripture that it is saying that we cannot come to Christ unless we are drawn to Christ; but that being drawn to Christ does not = being regenerated or chosen by God.

Being drawn to Christ means that we are given an unhindered opportunity to receive or reject Christ.

If we receive Christ (as Saviour and as Lord) then we are regenerated.

If we do not receive Him, we are not regenerated.

Being drawn to Christ we are given an opportunity to receive Him.

Except He says all who are drawn to Him He will raise up at the last day.

 

[justbyfaith]

I agree. And we choose to follow Christ because we are saved. It is the regenerating work of the Holy Spirit that causes us to believe rather than not believe. But we do not have a choice as to whether we are the elect or not, and God is not obligated to save anyone. And yes, the natural man will always choose contrary to faith as he is unable to understand spiritual things and it is foolishness to him.

That indicates that you believe that if I were to make a choice to receive Christ that that choice would be invalid if I am not of the elect; and that Christ will cast me out.

What do you say, in counseling, to the person who, in believing Calvinism, says to you, "I may not be of the elect and therefore may not be able to come to Christ"?

Do you tell them that it does not matter whether they come to Christ because it is entirely up to God's choice?

Do you tell them that if they don't receive Christ, it will be the sign that they are of the non-elect, and that if they do receive Christ, it will be the sign that they are of the elect?

Truly I say to you that the former answer is in greater conjunction with your theology;

But that the latter answer is more in conjunction with the truth that we must do something in order to be saved (Hosea 14:2, Acts 16:31, Romans 10:9-13, Acts 2:38-39).

 

[justbyfaith]

You do not even seem to realize that you are superimposing your already held beliefs onto Reformed beliefs and making a nonsensical argument against Reformed teaching. Perhaps if you would read with careful consideration what others post, and particularly the scriptures they use as support for what they say, and then actually address those scriptures with some sort of counter instead of ignoring them and repeating the nonsensical argument, you would see your mistake and not do it again.

To refresh your memory, I will repost as a quote the ones I gave. If you still do not believe what they plainly say and consider that they say something else, then tell me what they do say. And show me how your argument is not made null and void by them. In my ow words, the ones that come to Christ are the one's God has given to Him and brought to Him through regeneration. No one else will come to Him because they do not believe Him and do not want Him. Therefore Jesus does not turn away any who do come to Him.

The ones that come to Him are the elect.

I would contend that a person cannot come to Christ unless he is drawn to Christ, but that being drawn is not the same thing as being regenerated.

A person drawn is being given an opportunity to receive Jesus as Lord and Saviour.

If they receive Him, they will be regenerated.

If they don't receive Him, it does not mean that they were never drawn.

 

[justbyfaith]

That when the scriptures say God foreknew it means He looked down the tunnel of time and saw who would accept Him and those He brought to Christ, those are the ones He elected. Whereas God makes the claim of being omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent, and sovereign over all His creation including the hearts of men. If He has to look down the tunnel of time to see who will choose Him, then He is learning something and therefore is not omniscient. If then He elects and saves those who choose Him (of their own free will and from an equal balance between Yes and no) then He is neither omnipotent or sovereign. He is then doing things according to man's will, not His own, and is powerless to go against the will of man.

If every time the words, believe or repent are used the word "choose" is added as though it were implied, it takes a portion of salvation out of the hands of God and places it in the hands of the creature, and a bit of the glory that belongs only to Him is given to the creature. It is no longer salvation by grace, but salvation by merit.

And everytime the word "world" is used it is said to mean all men without exception. When it almost never is used that way in any other context in or out of the Bible. In doing this the power of the cross is diminished, making it mostly of no value as most are not saved, yet Jesus suffered and died for them.

That is just a few cases.

I would say that merited favour is taught in the Bible (1 Peter 3:12, Proverbs 12:2).

God giving a measure of sovereignty to man does not make God not sovereign. He reserves the right to Omnipotently act in any given situation in order to affect the order of events so that they turn out according to His will.

And God is not learning anything in that He has foreknown everything. He is an eternal Spirit who inhabits eternity; and as such, He sees the end from the beginning.

Is God powerless to go against the will of man? Well, Jesus said that if anyone comes to Him He will in no wise cast them out.

It is not therefore that He is powerless in the sense of not being able to go against the will of man; but that based on His promise (His character and nature), He says that He will in no wise cast out anyone who comes to Him.

Is there anything God cannot do? For He is Omnipotent.

Yet, He is limited by His character and nature so that He cannot lie; and therefore, He must keep His promises

 

[justbyfaith]

And here, I think, we see why you are on this forum. Trying to separate and divide, and delighting when you think it has happened.

You should realize that your question, to which you think there were two mutually-exclusive answers, was a bogus question. @brightfame52 answered what you had been getting at earlier, concerning being chosen for reprobation, but every reprobate chooses with every breath to remain at enmity with God, thus choosing NOT SAVED.

And I'm wondering if you would be very much surprised if you found out that neither @brightfame52 nor myself is a Calvinist.

Actually, I was attempting to unify the two of you...

Pointing out that you have differences so that you might be able to hash them out and come to a same conclusion.

I know that @brightfame52 is a Calvinist, as I have known him for some time.

If you are denying being a Calvinist, then I expect that you will be arguing for certain aspects of Arminiansim very soon (if you are going to be consistent).

 

[brightfame52]

I contend concerning this scripture that it is saying that we cannot come to Christ unless we are drawn to Christ; but that being drawn to Christ does not = being regenerated or chosen by God.

Being drawn to Christ means that we are given an unhindered opportunity to receive or reject Christ.

If we receive Christ (as Saviour and as Lord) then we are regenerated.

If we do not receive Him, we are not regenerated.

Being drawn to Christ we are given an opportunity to receive Him.

No one can come to Christ unless they were chosen to. It has to be given them Jn 6:65

65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

You can contend all you want, it dont mean nothing !

 

[justbyfaith]

There you go with your bogus scenarios. You said, "So, someone who chooses to come to Christ, his choice is invalid; and God's choice to condemn him will prevail over his decision to receive Christ." No doubt the part I highlighted is to you a necessary conclusion, but you use false assumptions to get there. Many Calvinists would go so far as to say that God did not choose to condemn him—that what God did is choose him for reprobation. Some would not even claim God predestines anyone to reprobation. But all would tell you that God's predestination of a person does not prevail over anyone's decision to receive Christ. There is no conflict of wills going on. As has been shown you repeatedly, the decree of God results in the will of man to do precisely what God has decreed.

But perhaps even more to the point, the position (and this, too, by the decree of God) of unregenerate man, is from a nature of sin's corruption.
He did not choose to be trapped there, but he agrees with it wholeheartedly, and revels in it. Don't pretend he wants out and God won't let him!

I would say the same to you. It seems to me that it becomes the excuse in the secret mind of the Calvinist that he wanted to choose God but God wouldn't let him...therefore in his belief he places the responsibility for his condemnation squarely on God's shoulders in that he says that the choice is entirely up to God and that mankind has no choice in the matter of whether or not he is saved (I am addressing this as an issue of Calvinism whether you personally believe in it or not; since it is believed by Calvinists).

If God's predestination of a person does not prevail over anyone's decision to receive Christ, then the free will of man is a factor in whether or not a person is saved; and man's free will choice to receive Christ can be held as being the catalyst for his salvation.

 

[justbyfaith]

No one knows how to come to Christ before they do, and no one wants to come to Christ. According to the Bible people hear the voice of the Shepherd and they know His voice and the follow Him. And that is because God in His sovereignty and power and purpose has changed them inside, in the heart. He has opened their ears to hear. He has given them to Christ. It biblical terms it is called regeneration or the new birth. (John 3) We are all born in Adam, which means we are sinners who sin, and we cannot change that by our own flesh, or will or mind. Only God can do that. He takes us out of Adam and places us in Christ. This can be found in Romans chapters 1-9, in all its glory and detail.

The issue you have is that you can't get past thinking that faith comes first and is the cause of regeneration. Logic alone, given the words of God on the subject and the overall subject of who He is, and our condition in relation to Him, makes that backward and upside down view an impossibility.

We come to Christ because we are saved, and in the election of God, were always purposed to come to Him, and that is not of our own doing, lest any man should boast, it is a gift of God. He gives us to Christ and we are Christ's inheritance.

If faith is not the cause of regeneration then a person can be regenerated apart from faith.

However, the Bible teaches that there is something that we must do in order to procure salvation (Acts 16:31, Hosea 14:2, Romans 10:9-13, Acts 2:38-39).

 

[justbyfaith]

And therein we can see the deception that has been pervasive in the church centuries, now, that man's will is the turning point of salvation. My goodness, the hours spent on books and sermons explaining how that is even possible and how it results in eternal security! And how that what we do does not add to the value of what God has decreed and will bring to pass! And the relief of those like myself who realize they are completely at God's mercy.

You know, in your theology, whether or not He condemns you is entirely up to God.

What makes you think He won't condemn you?

Because in Calvinism God saves some and condemns others based solely on His free will choice.

What makes you think that you are going to fall on His good side?

Because there are certainly some people whom He will condemn.

 

[justbyfaith]

Except He says all who are drawn to Him He will raise up at the last day.

Jhn 6:44, (1) No man can come to me, except (2) the Father which hath sent me draw him: (3) and I will raise him up at the last day.

I would say that (3) us in reference to (1) and not necessarily in reference to (2).

When Jesus says, "I will raise him up at the last day", he is referring to those who come to Him and not necessarily those who are drawn to Him.

 

[makesends]

I would contend that we cannot come to Christ unless we are first drawn to Christ; which is not the same thing as regeneration.

If a person is regenerated before coming to Christ, then one does not need to come to Christ in order to be regenerated; for he is regenerated apart from coming to Christ.

Nevertheless the scripture teaches that there are things which we must do in order to be saved (Acts 16:31, Hosea 14:2, Romans 10:9-13, Acts 2:38-39).

Yes, you would contend that. Regeneration comes before what you are describing, unless simultaneous with, or even being itself the effectual drawing. To "come to" Christ is not described in the passage to be an act of the will, but yet, to be one of faith. This is not a riddle: the faith is the work of the Spirit of God in the regenerated believer, and is the only way to be saved.