Unconditional Election, Limited Atonement, and John 6:37

[Mr GLee]

It is certainly God...and does He not do so because I have asked Him to?

He said to me, "Seek my face" and I said to Him, "Your face, O Lord, I will seek..."

Truly He initiated a relationship with me by calling me to Himself.

But I had to respond to His call in the affirmative in order for His salvation to be wrought in me.

Dead as in dying mankind that seeks after sign or miracle they have no power to obey. We are not saved by seeking after sign to wonder after But are after the hearing of His faith that works in those born again

No ears to hear or new heart by which they could believe God not seen

Deuteronomy 29:3-4 King James Version The great temptations which thine eyes have seen, the signs, and those great miracles:
Yet the Lord hath not given you an heart to perceive, and eyes to see, and ears to hear, unto this day.

He affirms his call that works in us to both hear and empower us to do to it you his good pleasure Some murru Like Job and deisred to die knowing God would have mercy on those who previous knew nothiong of Hi,m The gospel saves

 

[makesends]

So, someone who chooses to come to Christ, his choice is invalid; and God's choice to condemn him will prevail over his decision to receive Christ.

Thus, Jesus casts out some of those who come to Him; which is contrary to scripture (John 6:37).

Wrong. You assume the false notion that there IS such a thing, which Romans 8 denies. They will not come to Christ, unless God has chosen them, and regenerated them. The faith by which we are saved is given us by God, not generated by us, but by God.

 

[makesends]

Call it a straw man if you will. I am merely dealing with a conclusion that might be made if a person believes in Calvinism. I have said that I am dealing with a misconception.

That misconception is the common thinking in those who hear the preaching of Calvinism that "I may not be of the elect; and if that is true, I cannot be saved". I am not saying that such a thing is the true conclusion that might be made from Calvinistic thinking; just that it seems to follow and that clarification needs to be made.

It needs to be understood that if anyone comes to Christ and perseveres to the end, that they are of the elect; and that we know whether we are of the elect by virtue of whether or not we come to Christ and persevere to the end. We can also know that we know that we know that we are children of God and that therefore it is inevitable but that we will persevere to the end (Romans 8:16, 1 John 5:13).

I would say therefore that if anyone comes to Christ and comes to the faithful conclusion that they are a child of God, that they can look back on their decision to receive Christ as being the catalyst and reason why they are in the kingdom.

Because Jesus will never cast out anyone who comes to Him. Therefore if I come to Him, I am of the elect; and I am of the elect because I came to Him.

Otherwise, I might come to Him and He might reject me because I am of the non-elect. However, that is not a biblical concept (see John 6:37).

You insist on giving the believer the credit. You are looking at it backwards.

 

[makesends]

Then their choice has a bearing on the matter; and the matter is not entirely up to God.

But I think that you think that their choice in the matter is entirely dictated by God's choice.

If that is the case, then God chooses for them; and chooses for them damnation.

What man does is a result of what God has done. Man had no choice in his creation, and he always chooses according to his reprobation. You would add what man does to what God does. Because of Adam, man is corrupt, and he will always choose according to that corruption until God has changed his heart. That God has decreed it, is not caused by man. Man always wills what God has already decreed. God does not choose for them. God does cause that they choose as they do, and so they choose according to what they are.

 

[makesends]

It also seems to me that the concept of whether or not man has a choice concerning his salvation is not a small issue.

It seems to me that you don't get the concept, that what God has decreed, man always does accordingly, and chooses to do.

 

[makesends]

Then their choice has a bearing on the matter; and the matter is not entirely up to God.

But I think that you think that their choice in the matter is entirely dictated by God's choice.

If that is the case, then God chooses for them; and chooses for them damnation.

If I hear you right, you are dividing this into parts, as though our part is not also God's. Our part is a RESULT of and therefore, the work of, God.

God does not, in decreeing what will happen, choosing FOR us, because we ourselves choose. What we choose is not chosen automatically. That we die or persevere is not automatic —it is only sure.

When the end comes and all the dust has settled, we will be able to look at the end product and say, "God made this". The fact that we chose many things within it, or in the production of it, does not put our choice outside God's causation and decree.

 

[brightfame52]

So, someone who chooses to come to Christ, his choice is invalid; and God's choice to condemn him will prevail over his decision to receive Christ.

Thus, Jesus casts out some of those who come to Him; which is contrary to scripture (John 6:37).

Cant no one choose to come to Christ except they were chosen by God. Jn 6:44

44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

 

[makesends]

Here, there is an apparent disunity in what is believed by certain Calvinists here.

@brightfame52 agreed with my statement that Calvinism preaches that man has no choice in the matter of whether he is saved; while @makesends disagreed

I can't speak for @brightfame52 , but I can speak for myself. You have re-interpreted your own statement that man has no choice in the matter of whether he is saved —at one point making it a question of whether man chooses at all in the matter— and at another point making it a question of whether man's choice is a cause rather than a result. Make up your mind what you are talking about.

 

[brightfame52]

Here, there is an apparent disunity in what is believed by certain Calvinists here.

@brightfame52 agreed with my statement that Calvinism preaches that man has no choice in the matter of whether he is saved; while @makesends disagreed

Man has no choice on whether he is saved or lost, God made that choice before the foundation for each person.

 

[Mr GLee]

You insist on giving the believer the credit. You are looking at it backwards.

Or upside down. It removes the power of God the Potter and gives it to dying mankind.

Isaiah 29:16 Surely your turning of things upside down shall be esteemed as the potter's clay: for shall the work say of him that made it, He made me not? or shall the thing framed say of him that framed it, He had no understanding?

 

[Mr GLee]

It seems to me that you don't get the concept, that what God has decreed, man always does accordingly, and chooses to do.

Yes, His mighty choice the one with power . Who could turn him who infallibly declares "Let there be a new creation" and "it was very God good."

Job 23:12-16 Neither have I gone back from the commandment of his lips; I have esteemed the words of his mouth more than my necessary food. But he is in one mind, and who can turn him? and what his soul desireth, even that he doeth. For he performeth the thing that is appointed for me: and many such things are with him. Therefore am I troubled at his presence: when I consider, I am afraid of him. For God maketh my heart soft, and the Almighty troubleth me:

Does it trouble you?

 

[Arial]

I have highlighted above what @justbyfaith said, that is not true. They have a choice in the question of their salvation, and they choose not to be saved. The question of whether they are elect of God is another question. JBFaith said they have no choice. That is wrong. They will always choose contrary to faith. Just as would the rest of us, were it not for God regenerating us, and his gift of faith.

I agree. And we choose to follow Christ because we are saved. It is the regenerating work of the Holy Spirit that causes us to believe rather than not believe. But we do not have a choice as to whether we are the elect or not, and God is not obligated to save anyone. And yes, the natural man will always choose contrary to faith as he is unable to understand spiritual things and it is foolishness to him.

 

[Arial]

I have not assaulted the character of any person.

What is the weather like in Denial?

 

[Arial]

That is not true. I recall one post that was very much similar to this one and I know that it was deleted because it presented a logic that certain people in authority found themselves unable to refute. It was deleted immediately before I was banned. You may recall it as in it I asked people to cease from calling me a troll since I was not exhibiting trollish behaviour in most of what I had been posting.

What is the weather like in Denial? You are making false accusations in this very post and being argumentative---both rule violations.

 

[Arial]

I don't recall insulting anyone.

What you remember is beside the point.

 

[makesends]

Yes, His mighty choice the one with power . Who could turn him who infallibly declares "Let there be a new creation" and "it was very God good."

Job 23:12-16 Neither have I gone back from the commandment of his lips; I have esteemed the words of his mouth more than my necessary food. But he is in one mind, and who can turn him? and what his soul desireth, even that he doeth. For he performeth the thing that is appointed for me: and many such things are with him. Therefore am I troubled at his presence: when I consider, I am afraid of him. For God maketh my heart soft, and the Almighty troubleth me:

Does it trouble you?

Does "it" 'trouble' me —does WHAT trouble me? —The Almighty? Oh my! YES! I am altogether at his mercy!

12 "I have not departed from the commands of his lips;
I have treasured the words of his mouth more than my daily bread.

13 “But he stands alone, and who can oppose him?
He does whatever he pleases.
14 He carries out his decree against me,
and many such plans he still has in store.
15 That is why I am terrified before him;
when I think of all this, I fear him.
16 God has made my heart faint;
the Almighty has terrified me."

Job 23:12-16 NIV

 

[Arial]

So, someone who chooses to come to Christ, his choice is invalid; and God's choice to condemn him will prevail over his decision to receive Christ.

Thus, Jesus casts out some of those who come to Him; which is contrary to scripture (John 6:37).

You do not even seem to realize that you are superimposing your already held beliefs onto Reformed beliefs and making a nonsensical argument against Reformed teaching. Perhaps if you would read with careful consideration what others post, and particularly the scriptures they use as support for what they say, and then actually address those scriptures with some sort of counter instead of ignoring them and repeating the nonsensical argument, you would see your mistake and not do it again.

To refresh your memory, I will repost as a quote the ones I gave. If you still do not believe what they plainly say and consider that they say something else, then tell me what they do say. And show me how your argument is not made null and void by them. In my ow words, the ones that come to Christ are the one's God has given to Him and brought to Him through regeneration. No one else will come to Him because they do not believe Him and do not want Him. Therefore Jesus does not turn away any who do come to Him.

A person who is not of the elect does not come to Christ. John 6:39-40 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day. 44. No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day. 3-65 It is the Spirit who gives life; and the flesh is no help at all. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life, But there are some of you who do not believe. (For Jesus knew from the beginning who those were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray him.) And he said, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father." John 5:37 All the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. 37 cannot be used in a way that isolates it from the rest of what is said, nor can it be ignored that it says all who the Father gives Him, just as it does in v. 39

John 10:25-28 Jesus answered them, "I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father's name bear witness about me, but you do not believe because you are not among my sheep. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand."

The ones that come to Him are the elect.

 

[Arial]

Such as?

That when the scriptures say God foreknew it means He looked down the tunnel of time and saw who would accept Him and those He brought to Christ, those are the ones He elected. Whereas God makes the claim of being omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent, and sovereign over all His creation including the hearts of men. If He has to look down the tunnel of time to see who will choose Him, then He is learning something and therefore is not omniscient. If then He elects and saves those who choose Him (of their own free will and from an equal balance between Yes and no) then He is neither omnipotent or sovereign. He is then doing things according to man's will, not His own, and is powerless to go against the will of man.

If every time the words, believe or repent are used the word "choose" is added as though it were implied, it takes a portion of salvation out of the hands of God and places it in the hands of the creature, and a bit of the glory that belongs only to Him is given to the creature. It is no longer salvation by grace, but salvation by merit.

And everytime the word "world" is used it is said to mean all men without exception. When it almost never is used that way in any other context in or out of the Bible. In doing this the power of the cross is diminished, making it mostly of no value as most are not saved, yet Jesus suffered and died for them.

That is just a few cases.

 

[Mr GLee]

You do not even seem to realize that you are superimposing your already held beliefs onto Reformed beliefs and making a nonsensical argument against Reformed teaching. Perhaps if you would read with careful consideration what others post, and particularly the scriptures they use as support for what they say, and then actually address those scriptures with some sort of counter instead of ignoring them and repeating the nonsensical argument, you would see your mistake and not do it again.

To refresh your memory, I will repost as a quote the ones I gave. If you still do not believe what they plainly say and consider that they say something else, then tell me what they do say. And show me how your argument is not made null and void by them. In my ow words, the ones that come to Christ are the one's God has given to Him and brought to Him through regeneration. No one else will come to Him because they do not believe Him and do not want Him. Therefore Jesus does not turn away any who do come to Him.

The ones that come to Him are the elect.

yes it is impossible to deceive the elect, they are given a warning before hand of the closing of cannon (sola scriptura) the sword of the spirIt) warning not to add or subtract fm the perfect sealed with seven seals till the end time. They will not be deceived by false teacher false apostles

Mathew 24 :21-26 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. Behold, I have told you before. Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.

 

[makesends]

Here, there is an apparent disunity in what is believed by certain Calvinists here.

@brightfame52 agreed with my statement that Calvinism preaches that man has no choice in the matter of whether he is saved; while @makesends disagreed

And here, I think, we see why you are on this forum. Trying to separate and divide, and delighting when you think it has happened.

You should realize that your question, to which you think there were two mutually-exclusive answers, was a bogus question. @brightfame52 answered what you had been getting at earlier, concerning being chosen for reprobation, but every reprobate chooses with every breath to remain at enmity with God, thus choosing NOT SAVED.

And I'm wondering if you would be very much surprised if you found out that neither @brightfame52 nor myself is a Calvinist.