Transferred Wrath

[Arial]

Reminds me of the never ending "ism" cop out by @Eternally-Grateful.

 

[Eleanor]

This does not actually claim that it was God the Father that punished God the Son (one of the fine points of PSA that I object to and request scriptural support for).

You did see the following, right?

1 Pe 2:24 - He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree.

Gal 3:13 - Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us.

Ro 8:32 - God did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for us.
"Gave him up" to what?. . .subjection to the Father's wrath on sin.

What did Jesus mean on the cross when he cried out in anguish that the Father had forsaken him?
He was referring to that separation from the Father which was part of the wrath poured out on him as payment for our sin.

I would question whether the function was to “satisfy divine justice”, but that is a point that may be unanswerable and is certainly too subtle to demand scripture to support WHY God chooses to do WHAT God chooses to do. So I would not choose to engage in a discussion over the unwritten motives of God.

That Christ suffered for sin is not something I would deny.
(Whether that was “punishment” depends on why Christ suffered, another term might be more accurate. I think one might be hard pressed to find a NT writer that describes the death of Jesus as a ‘punishment’.)

That is not up for question.

The OT sacrificial system was the type/pattern for Jesus' Atonement.
Those sacrifices were penalties for sin (Lev 5:6, 7, 15, 6:6, 26:41, 43). Jesus died as a penalty for sin.
The response of God's justice to sin is punitive (Lk 12:47-48, Ro 2:8).

 

[Arial]

I would question whether the function was to “satisfy divine justice”, but that is a point that may be unanswerable and is certainly too subtle to demand scripture to support WHY God chooses to do WHAT God chooses to do. So I would not choose to engage in a discussion over the unwritten motives of God.

It is not the least bit unanswerable or subtle. It isn't about why God chooses to do what God chooses to do. It is about what he did and the few scriptures you have been given by both @Eleanor and @DialecticSkeptic have shown what he did. There are other scriptures, of course, but those are enough to settle the matter.

Just, perfectly and always just, is an attribute of God.

Ps 89:14 Righteousness and justice are the foundation of your throne; steadfast love and faithfulness go before you.

What is God's justice, his steadfast love, and his faithfulness against sin and the sinner? Wrath.

 

[atpollard]

What did Jesus mean on the cross when he cried out in anguish that the Father had forsaken him?

Jesus meant “See Psalm 22, this is that happening right before your eyes.”

 

[atpollard]

Reminds me of the never ending "ism" cop out by @Eternally-Grateful.

Since you did not identify to whom this was intended, I can only make a universal general observation …

Nothing encourages continued conversation like having your views characterized as a “never ending ‘ism’ cop out”.

 

[Hazelelponi]

Happy Resurrection Day!

Happy Ressurection Day!

 

[Eleanor]

For the sake of argument, if we accept the RANSOM THEORY

Ransom is not a theory, it is the word of Jesus himself (Mt 20:28), as well as that of the apostles (1 Tim 2:6, Tit 2:14, Heb 9:15).

as a given (I do not, but it WAS believed by honest Christian theologians at one point before PSA became more popular), then GOD was no less sovereign under RANSOM than PSA, so Isaiah 53 was no less true … however SATAN was the one to whom the debt was paid under RANSOM, so it was the LORD’s will that SATAN punish Jesus.

No, the debt was paid to God's justice, just as prison time in our legal system is the debt paid to justice.

I merely point out that the punishment coming from the FATHER is an assumption of PSA inferred from scripture rather than an explicit statement of scripture.

Contraire. . .

Jesus prayed that the cup (of God's wrath--Isa 51:17, Jer 25:15-17, 49:12, Lam 4:21, Eze 23:31) be taken from him (Mt 26:39), nevertheless, submitting to God's will that it be poured out on him.

There is only one penalty for sin--God's wrath, which Jesus suffered in our stead, paying to God's justice our debt for sin.

Jesus satisfied (propitiated) God's wrath on our sin (Ro 3:25).

The very word “punishment” is far more frequently used in scripture in a far different context that “redemption”.

Which is irrelevant to Jesus' atonement.

 

[atpollard]

Ransom is not a theory

FYI: RANSOM THEORY OF ATONEMENT

 

[Hazelelponi]

...

 

[atpollard]

Just as a point of information, Christianity has proposed multiple theories on the ATONEMENT of which PSA is just one:

• Ransom Theory
• Recapitulation Theory
• Satisfaction Theory
• Penal Substitution Theory
• Governmental Theory
• Moral Influence Theory

 

[Eleanor]

FYI: RANSOM THEORY OF ATONEMENT

If it's not based in Scripture, it is conjecture.
If it is based in Scripture, I already have it (Mt 20:28, 1 Tim 2:6, Tit 2:14, Heb 9:15).

 

[atpollard]

...

All caps was to differentiate a link or the name of a theory … equivalent of bold for emphasis.
(The screaming I do into a pillow and in private. )

[EDIT: oops, I see you changed your mind. Well I’ll leave the response as no offense was taken.]

 

[atpollard]

If it's not based in Scripture, it is conjecture.

I am not prepared to state emphatically that the atonement conclusions of every Christian Theologian that has ever lived who disagrees with me is not based on Scripture. These theories are from people that dedicated their lives to the study of scripture (many in the original languages) and these theories are what they concluded that Scripture teaches.

However, THAT was my point about several nuances that some people claimed as part of PSA.

 

[Eleanor]

I am not prepared to state emphatically that the atonement conclusions of every Christian Theologian that has ever lived who disagrees with me is not based on Scripture.

Relevance?

These theories are from people that dedicated their lives to the study of scripture (many in the original languages) and these theories are what they concluded that Scripture teaches.

The word of God is the only measure. . .and that is what has been presented.

However, THAT was my point about several nuances that some people claimed as part of PSA.

 

[ReverendRV]

I'm about to go to Church. I meant that Post to drag the Wrath of God during the Flood, into the discussion here. It's not so much about Baptism, as it is about the Wrath of God; and our Ark, the Lord God Jesus Christ...

I'm not trying to change the Thread to a discussion about Baptism. But one thing missing from a discussion on PSA, is a discussion about the Days of God's Judgment and Wrath against Sin. Jesus fulfills the Type which was the Flood...

Happy Resurrection Day!

Noah’s real Ark ~ by ReverendRV * July 22

1st Peter 3:20 NIV; those who disobeyed God long ago when God waited patiently while Noah was building his boat. Only eight people were saved from drowning in that terrible flood.

One of the most amazing things about the Bible is that in the Old Testament, there are SO many pictures of Christ before he was even born. You ask, “What do you mean?” The Old Testament is full of what Theologians call ‘Types’; these are examples where God meant to teach Israel about Redemption, and these examples pointed to a future Messiah. One of my favorite Old Testament Types of Jesus, is that of Noah’s Ark. ~ There came a time that the wickedness of Mankind gave cause for God to judge and condemn the world by flooding it to death. Noah found Grace in the eyes of God and was given time to build an Ark which would Save them. Everyone mocked Noah but before the rains came, God closed him and his family securely within the Ark. The waters rose but the Ark sailed safely through the seas of God’s Wrath, and Noah’s family came out alive on the other side. ~ “But why should this be important to me?”...

The reason is because there is a future Wrath of God coming; but this time by Fire. God gave the world another chance when he made his Ten Commandments known. ~ Have you ever told a Lie? What do you call people who Lie about you? A Liar, right? Have you ever Stolen anything? What would you call anyone who cheated you out of something that is rightfully yours? A Thief, right? Have you ever cheated with a Married person? Then you’ve Stolen from their Spouse and are an Adulterous Burglar at Heart. ~ These are just some of the Ten Commandments, if God Judged you by this standard, would you be innocent or guilty? Guilty Sinners navigate through eternity in the lake of fire without an Ark to keep them from suffering the Wrath of God. Here’s your last chance; Jesus, the New Testament Anti Type of the Ark…

An Old Testament Type points to the future reality which it represented; a New Testament Anti Type points back to the Old Testament Type. Saint Peter said that Water Baptism is a Type which pictured being Saved from the Wrath of God by Noah’s Ark. Jesus Christ is like that Ark which we enter, and God closes the door behind us. He was the only person who never Sinned, and this made him a sea worthy vessel to make it through the Wrath of God. Jesus received God’s Wrath and died on a Cross, shedding his blood to pay for our Sin. We’re Saved by Grace through Faith in Jesus Christ as our risen Lord and Savior, apart from our trying to Work ourselves into sea worthy condition; it’s too late for that. Repent of your Sins, Confess Jesus Christ as your Lord God; and find a Bible believing Church who will Baptize you. ~ Noah’s Ark was shaped like a casket. Many believe that the Ark went under during the storm but rose from the depths. Baptism represents the death, burial and Resurrection of Jesus Christ. There’s a Church Denomination that teaches Baptism Saves you, but Jesus said Baptism makes us students of his Church. This Denomination uses a Verse which tells us to be Baptized for the Remission of Sins; but the word ‘for’ means ‘because of’. If we read a Wanted Poster and it said a man is wanted ‘for’ Murder, we don’t apply for the job; he is wanted because of Murder. Get Baptized because you believe in Jesus Christ, because he was Baptized in the Wrath of God for you. Now God’s Wrath has been Quenched…

1st Peter 3:21 NKJV; There is also an antitype which now saves us—baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

 

[Arial]

Since you did not identify to whom this was intended, I can only make a universal general observation …

Nothing encourages continued conversation like having your views characterized as a “never ending ‘ism’ cop out”.

I wasn't calling anything in this thread a never ending "ism" cop out. Nothing discourages continued conversation like having someone say you said something you did not say.

 

[Arial]

Just as a point of information, Christianity has proposed multiple theories on the ATONEMENT of which PSA is just one:

• Ransom Theory
• Recapitulation Theory
• Satisfaction Theory
• Penal Substitution Theory
• Governmental Theory
• Moral Influence Theory

Relevance? This thread is about PSA.

 

[David1701]

Maybe more than 1.













(Now you get to argue over the word ‘motive’).

God is motivated by what accords with his nature. There is definitely more than one motive for the atonement (the Bible states several).

 

[David1701]

Jesus meant “See Psalm 22, this is that happening right before your eyes.”

Great! So, you agree that Jesus was forsaken by God, right before their eyes.

 

[fastfredy0]

Penal substitutionary atonement is the theological doctrine that Christ bore the punishment for sin (penal) in the place of us believers (substitutionary), satisfying divine justice and cleansing us of the guilt and stain of sin, thereby reconciling us and God (atonement).

This does not actually claim that it was God the Father that punished God the Son

The definition of "punish" is: inflict a penalty or sanction on (someone) as retribution for an offense, especially a transgression of a legal or moral code. Therefore, IMO, anyone that says God punished Jesus is wrong since Jesus was sinless.

“satisfy divine justice”, but that is a point that may be unanswerable and is certainly too subtle to demand scripture to support WHY God chooses to do WHAT God chooses to do. So I would not choose to engage in a discussion over the unwritten motives of God.

Amen. if you proceed further to ask why he so willed, you are seeking something greater and higher than God's will, which cannot be found. Calvin

(Whether that was “punishment” depends on why Christ suffered, another term might be more accurate. I think one might be hard pressed to find a NT writer that describes the death of Jesus as a ‘punishment’.)

Agreed

God’s perfect justice demands some form of atonement for sin.

• Same question as above … Does the Bible really teach that Justice demands an atonement for sin?
• Is forgiveness impossible without atonement?

Interesting point. Jesus says to forgive 70 x 7 with no mention of justice. I don't think God's forgiveness demands justice. Since God is just the 70x7 would imply forgiveness doesn't demand justice. Is it just the the Almighty be put on a cross to save men who came from nothing and have no worth save what God assigns him for His glory and pleasure. Could the slapping of God's hand be atoned for by sending all mankind to hell?

As the first one … Is this describing a transfer of punishment? Do our sins generate some tangible “punishment” or “wrath” that can be transferred from one recipient to another?

Hmm, one cannot transfer the penalty of man to God for by definition a penalty only applies to someone that has done something immoral by God's definition of morality. To penalize the perfect (Christ) would not be just. Now a sacrifice can be made to trade for the forgiveness of sin.