Transferred Wrath

[atpollard]

This will derail the thread if it is discussed, but I have to ask, for the sake of thinking about it and possibley (you) starting a thread devoted to the topic: Does it have to be wrath poured out of Christ in order to be penal substitution? And wouldn't the statement "wrath poured on the Son" first need to be explained by the one who is using that terminology?

Greetings Arial,

This isn’t my first rodeo on PSA and the WRATH of God, so you will forgive me if I enter with little expectation of “communication” (talking TO each other) and with more trepidation of talking PAST each other.

First, a disclaimer: I believe everything the Bible EXPLICITLY states that Jesus did and was, so all attempts to quote “Christ died for our sins” (1 Corinthians 15:3) and similar verses as a “gotcha” proof the PSA is true and I am wrong will be met with a [sigh] and “Yup, I believe that, too.” That is not my complaint with PSA as it is typically presented.

FROM THE DESCRIPTION OF THIS FORUM:
“Christ took our sins and the sins of the whole world as well as the Father's wrath on his shoulders, and he has drowned them both in himself so that we are thereby reconciled to God and become completely righteous. Martin Luther”

Taking this as a working definition of PSA (we need to start somewhere and Christ Centered Community chose this quote to DEFINE “Atonement” for purposes of discussion), here is the challenge that was presented to me and I was confident that I could succeed in passing:

• Show me where in the BIBLE it teaches “Christ took … the Father's wrath on his shoulders”.

So therein is my problem. I searched to prove the definition Luther and CCC provided TRUE according to the challenge provided by another Christian to show where that is taught in Scripture. In my search, I found scripture offered a very different picture of God and the difference between WRATH and FORGIVENESS to the “pound of flesh to balance the scale of Divine Justice” model that I had been taught. Being “SOLA SCRIPTURA” to the core, I chose to reject the teaching of great theologians for the “Norma normans non normata” (the rule of rules that itself, answers to no higher rule”) … I believed Scripture.

The very specific point, succinctly put, is the TRANSFER of WRATH. I cannot find Biblical support for the theological model of God transferring DIVINE wrath from us (“the punishment we deserve” is how I typically heard it stated) to Jesus Christ (“Jesus took God’s punishment in our place” is how I typically heard it stated) so that God’s Justice could be satisfied (“Justice demands that payment be made for the sin to allow Mercy to forgive” … the divine equivalent of God demands his pound of flesh to satisfy his wrath before God is free to show mercy.). I have no objection to this on any grounds that it is “mean” or “unfair”. It is not God’s RIGHT to create such an atonement plan that I object to. I simply think that if God DID create such an atonement plan, that God would probably have mentioned it in His 66 books of God- breathed scripture. The fact that scripture does not teach about transferred wrath (only transferred sin) suggests that WRATH is not transferred. The fact that scripture actually teaches OTHER THINGS about WRATH reinforces that belief.

So to try and speak directly to your specific questions:

Q. Does it have to be wrath poured out of Christ in order to be penal substitution?

• No. However it is the concept of TRANSFERRED WRATH that I disagree with, so it is the “God’s wrath, directed at the saints, transferred to and inflicted on Christ, by God” that I call into question. If you can reject that and still call it PSA, then you have my agreement.

Q. And wouldn't the statement "wrath poured on the Son" first need to be explained by the one who is using that terminology?

• Yes. Unfortunately, everyone will have a different definition. Here at CCC, we have a quote from Luther as a starting point. For me, I have now defined my objection. For TRUTH, we have SCRIPTURE to define what God claims God did.

 

[atpollard]

Restricting to the NT (because we are focusing on the saints), here are some verses that teach about the WRATH OF GOD as

1. Something that will come in the future (a “day of wrath”)
2. Something directed against evildoers, not against saints.

• [Mat 3:7 ESV] 7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to his baptism, he said to them, "You brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
• [Luk 3:7 ESV] 7 He said therefore to the crowds that came out to be baptized by him, "You brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
• [Jhn 3:36 ESV] 36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.
• [Rom 1:18 ESV] 18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth.
• [Rom 2:5, 8 ESV] 5 But because of your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath when God's righteous judgment will be revealed. ... 8 but for those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury.
• [Rom 9:22 ESV] 22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction,
• [Rom 12:19 ESV] 19 Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave it to the wrath of God, for it is written, "Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord."
• [Rom 13:4-5 ESV] 4 for he is God's servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain. For he is the servant of God, an avenger who carries out God's wrath on the wrongdoer. 5 Therefore one must be in subjection, not only to avoid God's wrath but also for the sake of conscience.
• [Eph 2:3 ESV] 3 among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.
• [Eph 5:6 ESV] 6 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience.
• [Col 3:6 ESV] 6 On account of these the wrath of God is coming.
• [1Th 2:16 ESV] 16 by hindering us from speaking to the Gentiles that they might be saved--so as always to fill up the measure of their sins. But wrath has come upon them at last!

There is nothing here to suggest that WRATH must be paid before MERCY can be given, only that WRATH awaits those that “reject so great a salvation”.

 

[atpollard]

Restricting to the NT (because we are focusing on the saints), here are verses that speak of us and WRATH:

• [Jhn 3:36 ESV] 36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.
• [Rom 5:9 ESV] 9 Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God.
• [Eph 2:3 ESV] 3 among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.
• [1Th 1:10 ESV] 10 and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come.
• [1Th 5:9 ESV] 9 For God has not destined us for wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,

Note CAREFULLY, that in all of these cases, we are NOT under wrath, we are SAVED from wrath, we WERE a children of wrath, we are DELIVERED from wrath and we are NOT DESTINED for wrath.

NOWHERE does it speak of our wrath TRANSFERRED to another.

 

[Arial]

This isn’t my first rodeo on PSA and the WRATH of God, so you will forgive me if I enter with little expectation of “communication” (talking TO each other) and with more trepidation of talking PAST each other.

I will get to this but I will wait til I have a clearer head and more ambition. Mornings are best for me, By late afternoon I have settled comfortably into my laziness.

The subject of the relationship with Christ in his suffering with the wrath of God towards sin, to me is so nuanced that is is easy to portray it in a way one does not mean, but is likely to sound like, in spite of all good intentions. Plus, I kind of think through things as I type.

 

[Arial]

First, a disclaimer: I believe everything the Bible EXPLICITLY states that Jesus did and was, so all attempts to quote “Christ died for our sins” (1 Corinthians 15:3) and similar verses as a “gotcha” proof the PSA is true and I am wrong will be met with a [sigh] and “Yup, I believe that, too.” That is not my complaint with PSA as it is typically presented.

My disclaimer: I never heard the term "penalty substitution" until I got involved with forums. It was not discussed in any churches I attended, is not called exactly by that term in the Bible, in the Reformed reading that I did when I began investigating that theology, it no doubt was mentioned in places, but did not register. I have not read any writings that have been directly dealing with penal substitution under that title. I realize that I do believe in the doctrine of penal substitution, but what I present is my own understanding of it, gleaned from the pages of Scripture.

FROM THE DESCRIPTION OF THIS FORUM:
“Christ took our sins and the sins of the whole world as well as the Father's wrath on his shoulders, and he has drowned them both in himself so that we are thereby reconciled to God and become completely righteous. Martin Luther”

If that one sentence were to be used as the definition of penal substitution, I would likely take issue with the statement, but not with penal substitution.. But why would we use one sentence, removed from all surrounding context and say this is what penalty substitution is? I know you are referring to something that has already occurred on the forum, and in the way in which it was presented. So I will present my view of what I refer to as penal substitution, and connect them with what follows in your post.

At the first I will say that my perception comes from key words connected to the cross and how they are used within the scriptures.

Ransom
Just
Justified
Atonement
Substitute
Propitiation
Reconciliation

I will come to them shortly.

The very specific point, succinctly put, is the TRANSFER of WRATH. I cannot find Biblical support for the theological model of God transferring DIVINE wrath from us (“the punishment we deserve” is how I typically heard it stated) to Jesus Christ (“Jesus took God’s punishment in our place” is how I typically heard it stated) so that God’s Justice could be satisfied (“Justice demands that payment be made for the sin to allow Mercy to forgive” … the divine equivalent of God demands his pound of flesh to satisfy his wrath before God is free to show mercy.).

Stating it, and therefore I guess seeing it, as God demanding his pound of flesh to satisfy his wrath before he is free to show mercy, seems a gross misunderstanding of what penal substitution is, and I don't know anyone who looks at it that way and also believes in penalty substitution. Though of course, the number of people I know is very small compared to the whole. And in some cases PSA may claim God's wrath is exacted against Jesus, I do not. It is exacted against sin and its consequence death, on his body, (the body God prepared for him,) which he also faced, therefore sin had something to do with it. Why? Because it is sin and death he came to destroy. The irony is astounding! His victory over the destroyers is in his death. (Reminds me again of Psalm 2. God laughs at the armies amassed against him. He has set his King on his holy hill Zion. Good Voddie video posted in video forum on Ps 2. You might really enjoy it.)

I will have to come back to this, but will to ahead and post this portion so it won't get too long.

Imputation

 

[atpollard]

Stating it, and therefore I guess seeing it, as God demanding his pound of flesh to satisfy his wrath before he is free to show mercy, seems a gross misunderstanding of what penal substitution is, and I don't know anyone who looks at it that way and also believes in penalty substitution.

To be fair … NOBODY would ever phrase it as I have.

On the other hand, people will say something like “GOD is perfect in his JUSTICE and perfect in his MERCY, therefore God cannot simply Forgive Sin by just ‘letting it slide’ without satisfying the demand of God’s perfect JUSTICE with the payment of the WRATH that we have earned by our sins.”

Their very pious and God honoring sounding version is the “FUNCTIONAL EQUIVALENT” to what I stated … “God demands his pound of flesh to satisfy his wrath before he is free to show mercy”.

So my response remains “where does SCRIPTURE say that?” … where is the “Transfer of Wrath” discussed?

 

[ReverendRV]

Post in thread 'Why is the Word of God not so Sharp on Forums?'

Apr 12, 2025

I suspect we'll disagree with you on PSA, but you get it...

EVERYONE disagrees with me on PSA.
So I just keep inviting them to show me where the Bible teaches about “transferred wrath” (the concept that I couldn’t find).

• atpollard

• 

Acts 2:16+20

 

[atpollard]

Post in thread 'Why is the Word of God not so Sharp on Forums?'

Apr 12, 2025

I suspect we'll disagree with you on PSA, but you get it...

EVERYONE disagrees with me on PSA.
So I just keep inviting them to show me where the Bible teaches about “transferred wrath” (the concept that I couldn’t find).

• atpollard

• 

Acts 2:16+20

Act 2:14-21 [ESV]

14 But Peter, standing with the eleven, lifted up his voice and addressed them: "Men of Judea and all who dwell in Jerusalem, let this be known to you, and give ear to my words. 15 For these people are not drunk, as you suppose, since it is only the third hour of the day. 16 But this is what was uttered through the prophet Joel: ​

​

17 "'And in the last days it shall be, God declares, ​

that I will pour out my Spirit on all flesh, ​

and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, ​

and your young men shall see visions, ​

and your old men shall dream dreams; ​

​

18 even on my male servants and female servants in those days I will pour out my Spirit, and they shall prophesy. 19 And I will show wonders in the heavens above and signs on the earth below, blood, and fire, and vapor of smoke; 20 the sun shall be turned to darkness and the moon to blood, before the day of the Lord comes, the great and magnificent day. 21 And it shall come to pass that everyone who calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.'​

I am just going to have to request some exegesis. I have provided complete paragraphs and underlined the verses and I just don’t get it.

I am looking for something in scripture that supports the concept of “TRANSFERRED WRATH” … specifically the wrath God owes the saints, transferred to Jesus and the wrath of the FATHER falling on the SON. The specific cornerstone of PSA that I got my clock cleaned when I set out to prove it true from SCRIPTURE.

 

[ReverendRV]

Act 2:14-21 [ESV]

14 But Peter, standing with the eleven, lifted up his voice and addressed them: "Men of Judea and all who dwell in Jerusalem, let this be known to you, and give ear to my words. 15 For these people are not drunk, as you suppose, since it is only the third hour of the day. 16 But this is what was uttered through the prophet Joel: ​

​

17 "'And in the last days it shall be, God declares, ​

that I will pour out my Spirit on all flesh, ​

and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, ​

and your young men shall see visions, ​

and your old men shall dream dreams; ​

​

18 even on my male servants and female servants in those days I will pour out my Spirit, and they shall prophesy. 19 And I will show wonders in the heavens above and signs on the earth below, blood, and fire, and vapor of smoke; 20 the sun shall be turned to darkness and the moon to blood, before the day of the Lord comes, the great and magnificent day. 21 And it shall come to pass that everyone who calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.'​

I am just going to have to request some exegesis. I have provided complete paragraphs and underlined the verses and I just don’t get it.

I am looking for something in scripture that supports the concept of “TRANSFERRED WRATH” … specifically the wrath God owes the saints, transferred to Jesus and the wrath of the FATHER falling on the SON. The specific cornerstone of PSA that I got my clock cleaned when I set out to prove it true from SCRIPTURE.

My Gospel Tract was about a Transferred Wrath...

Judgment Days ~ by ReverendRV * June 15

Romans 2:5 ESV; But because of your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath when God's righteous judgment will be revealed.

Theology sometimes presents us with a System to explain difficulties in the Bible. I often say that if you cannot find an answer for a possible mistake in the Bible, and no one is able to give you the answer; it doesn’t mean there’s nobody out there who can give an answer. There is a Principle in Theology known as ‘Dual Fulfilment’. Isaiah 7:14 is a dual fulfillment; a Promised son was born in the Old Testament; and in the New Testament. Jesus read from the Book of Isaiah; but stopped at a certain point, saying that in this day the reading was fulfilled in their hearing. The Reason Jesus stopped was because the next Verse he could have read, will be fulfilled on Judgment Day. ~ Another Verse also has a Double fulfillment; ‘The Sun will darken and the Moon turn blood red, before the Great and Terrible Day of the Lord comes’. In Ellicott’s Commentary, He says the Great and Terrible Day of the Lord is the Day Jesus Christ died. Saint Peter teaches us it was Christ’s Judgment Day. Saint Paul teaches this Judgment Day is coming again…

Why is there a Judgment Day? It is due to the Sin of the World. ~ What do you call people who Lie? Have you ever Lied? Then you belong in their Category. Do you not believe in God? Now you broke the First Commandment to believe in God. Have you ever thought of God as anything other than what the Bible says he is? Then you broke the Second Commandment not to make a god to suit yourself. Have you ever Hated someone? Jesus said this means you’ve Murdered them in your Heart. He also said, ‘Unbelievers, Murderers, Idolaters, and all Liars deserve to go to Hell’. Will you be innocent or guilty? Would you go to Heaven or Hell? ~ What you need is an Alternative Judgment Day where God’s Wrath can be revealed…

For God so Loved the world he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in him shall not perish but have everlasting Life! Jesus Christ was born of a Virgin, that he could be Sinless. He lived a life of maintaining his Sinlessness, and this is why God his Father was well pleased with him. He earned his way to Heaven by being Good, but volunteered to pay the Penalty for the Sins of every new Believer; by being a Substitute for them, on a Substitute Day of Judgment and Wrath. Jesus Christ died on the Cross by bleeding to death, was buried; but arose from the Grave Alive! He was seen by five Hundred people before he Ascended to Heaven. We’re Saved by the Grace of God through Faith in the Risen Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, without Works lest we boast. Repent of your Sins, Confess Jesus Christ as your lord God; and learn from him at a Gospel Church. ~ Are you not convinced that the Day of Christ’s Crucifixion is the Great and Terrible Day of the Lord’s Judgment? How could that Day be Great at all?? As Christians we celebrate the day every year; after all, why in the world do we call that Terrible day, ‘Good Friday’?

Isaiah 53:5 ESV; But he was wounded for our transgressions; he was crushed for our iniquities; upon him was the chastisement that brought us peace, and with his stripes we are healed.

This brings me back to my Thread about the Sword of the Spirit not being sharp enough to work on Believers; when it should. You should believe as Saint Peter said, 'This is what Joel said about [Christ's Crucifixion], it was the Great and Terrible Day of the Lord's Wrath'...

Acts 2:16+20...

 

[Arial]

I simply think that if God DID create such an atonement plan, that God would probably have mentioned it in His 66 books of God- breathed scripture. The fact that scripture does not teach about transferred wrath (only transferred sin) suggests that WRATH is not transferred. The fact that scripture actually teaches OTHER THINGS about WRATH reinforces that belief.

Does the principle of penal substitution as presented in the Bible (and I believe it is) teach it as "transferred" wrath? Or is that your term? (Serious question, not a commentary.)

I would state it this way: Sin does need to meet God's justice for no single atttibute of God is ever, or ever can be, compromised by any of the others. Sin must be punished, and it must be punished for the sinner in order for the sinner to be taken from its grasp, and given to God for his kingdom. The mercy is not simply in pardoning. It is in expiating---extinguishing the guilt. And it must be real. The penalty for sin is death. That is justice, and it is all his other attributes as well and in equal measure---including love.

This is where "ransom" and "substitution" come in.

Heb 10: 5 "Sacrifice and offerings you have not desire, but a body have you prepared for me; 9-10 then he added, "Behold I have come to do your will" He does away with the first in order to establish the second. And by that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
1 Peter 1:18-19 Knowing that you were ransomed from the futile ways inherited from your forefathers, not with perishable things such as silver or gold, but with the precious blood of Christ, like that of a lamb without blemish or spot.
Matt 20:28 Even as the Son of Man came not to be served but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.
1 Peter 2:24 He himself bore out sins in his body on the tree, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness. By his wounds you have been healed.
2 Cor 5:21 For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

A ransom is a satisfaction being made my one person for another. What all humans born are facing in the future is the wrath of God poured out on sin and sinners. The only way out of that since we cannot save ourselves from this wrath, is if another of greater value and without our sin or sinfulness, offers himself instead. Not to have the fury of God's wrath burn against him. No one can survive that. But to bear the penalty of sin as a substitute, and die. That is why he had to have a body like ours. Jesus survived and rose again and ascended back to the Father as a conquering King, because he had no sin that was deserving of death. It was pure and simple substitution. He conquered the power of sin and death over those who are placed in him through faith. "There is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus." Now it is not a question of justice sacrificed for the sake of mercy, but justice satisfied. Justice and mercy kiss. The believer now wears the robes of Christ's righteousness because there was a real imputation of our sin and sinfulness to Christ on the cross. He really bore them, really suffered, and really died because of it, really paid for them. There is no other way his righteousness can be imputed to us. We will no longer face the wrath of God, because he took our penalty for sin.

That is penal substitution in my view. It is the suffering on his body, and the death of his body that is in our place. And it was our sin and our death he suffered in place of. And it was penalty. A penal, substitutionary, atonement.

 

[Arial]

• No. However it is the concept of TRANSFERRED WRATH that I disagree with, so it is the “God’s wrath, directed at the saints, transferred to and inflicted on Christ, by God” that I call into question. If you can reject that and still call it PSA, then you have my agreement.

Maybe that is how some see PSA but it is not how I see it. God's wrath inflicted on Christ, is not directed at the saints. It is for the saints and is against sin. And his wrath is not against Christ, but against sin, the sin Christ is bearing in his body. It is sin and death he is conquering for the saints. And yes it is inflicted on Christ as he stands in our stead as a ransom making propitiation.

It is the sins of his people that are transferred to Jesus' body.

 

[fastfredy0]

am looking for something in scripture that supports the concept of “TRANSFERRED WRATH” … specifically the wrath God owes the saints, transferred to Jesus and the wrath of the FATHER falling on the SON.

... my 2 cents worth ...

perhaps the root of the problem is one's definition of God's Wrath. Consider ...

Proposed Definition: God's Wrath (or Hate or Anger) is a disposition of disfavor and holy judgment against sin. Since God is impassible his wrath is not an emotion so such a definition would not fit.

So, did the human nature of Christ ever face God's "wrath" (disfavor)? (I say the human nature as the divine nature is the same in all 3 persons. The human nature of Christ has short comings like being capable of death)
“Now from the sixth hour there was darkness over all the land until the ninth hour. And about the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, ‘Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani?’ that is, ‘My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?’”

...end of my ramblings ... I'm not going to defend the statements

​

 

[ReverendRV]

...end of my ramblings ... I'm not going to defend the statements

 

[atpollard]

And it was our sin and our death he suffered in place of.

“the wages of sin is death” … we can probably agree on that.
“All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God” … we can probably agree on that, too.
Everybody (with the possible exception of Enoch and Elijah if we want to pick nits and argue fine points about people who “were no more” instead of died and who did something with a chariot of fire) dies … 100% human mortality rate.

So “death he suffered” may have served a purpose other than our punishment for sin (because we still die).
It is the same criticism that I have with UNIVERSAL ATONEMENT (if Jesus died for the forgiveness of everyone, then everyone would be forgiven). So if Jesus was killed by God because that was the penalty we deserved (Jesus died OUR death) then we should not die … ever. Why is God exacting punishment for the same thing twice?

 

[atpollard]

And about the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, ‘Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani?’ that is, ‘My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?’”

That was a lesson from a Psalm proclaiming EXACTLY what was happening there … and it ends with God heard his cries and did NOT abandon him.

 

[David1701]

“the wages of sin is death” … we can probably agree on that.
“All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God” … we can probably agree on that, too.
Everybody (with the possible exception of Enoch and Elijah if we want to pick nits and argue fine points about people who “were no more” instead of died and who did something with a chariot of fire) dies … 100% human mortality rate.

So “death he suffered” may have served a purpose other than our punishment for sin (because we still die).
It is the same criticism that I have with UNIVERSAL ATONEMENT (if Jesus died for the forgiveness of everyone, then everyone would be forgiven). So if Jesus was killed by God because that was the penalty we deserved (Jesus died OUR death) then we should not die … ever. Why is God exacting punishment for the same thing twice?

Our bodies are viewed are already dead, because of sin. That is the picture that Paul used in Rom. 7, calling our flesh (physical body) "...this body of death...", the analogy being a Roman punishment used for murderers, in which the body of the dead victim was chained to the living perpetrator, until he died from disease. Our living spirit (having been born of God) is chained to our dead, festering flesh.

Rom. 8 gives the way of victory over our dead, festering flesh (through Jesus Christ our Lord); but, our flesh is viewed as already dead.

For a Christian, his physical death is no longer a punishment for sin (a consequence, yes; but not a punishment).

As far as the Lord Jesus is concerned, he had never sinned, so his physical body would not naturally have died at all. The reason that he did, is to bear our iniquities and the punishment due for them.

As far as God pouring out his anger on Jesus is concerned, we know that God is angry with sin; and Jesus was made sin for us.

 

[atpollard]

Our bodies are viewed are already dead, because of sin. That is the picture that Paul used in Rom. 7, calling our flesh (physical body) "...this body of death...", the analogy being a Roman punishment used for murderers, in which the body of the dead victim was chained to the living perpetrator, until he died from disease. Our living spirit (having been born of God) is chained to our dead, festering flesh.

Rom. 8 gives the way of victory over our dead, festering flesh (through Jesus Christ our Lord); but, our flesh is viewed as already dead.

For a Christian, his physical death is no longer a punishment for sin (a consequence, yes; but not a punishment).

As far as the Lord Jesus is concerned, he had never sinned, so his physical body would not naturally have died at all. The reason that he did, is to bear our iniquities and the punishment due for them.

As far as God pouring out his anger on Jesus is concerned, we know that God is angry with sin; and Jesus was made sin for us.

You do know that I understand the THEOLOGY. I was taught it and fully embraced it. The issue came when I went to the BIBLE to attempt to DEFEND the theology that I had been taught. Scripture does not say what the THEOLOGY states. The THEOLOGY fills in gaps with assumptions and goes beyond what is actually written in the word.

So 'splainin' theology to me will not help. It is not what theology claims that scripture actually STATES that I have issue with. It is the parts you just ASSUME and add on top of that. PSA Reformed Theologians are following in the footsteps of the Scribes and Pharisees by piling HUMAN TRADITIONS and INTERPRETATIONS on top of the actual SCRIPTURE and treating the two as equal. THAT is what I am objecting to in the name of "Sola Scriptura".

So how much of your post is LITERALLY what Scripture states and how much is ADDITIONAL information that is not stated as you state it?
How much poison do you need to add to spoil a meal?

 

[civic]

To be fair … NOBODY would ever phrase it as I have.

On the other hand, people will say something like “GOD is perfect in his JUSTICE and perfect in his MERCY, therefore God cannot simply Forgive Sin by just ‘letting it slide’ without satisfying the demand of God’s perfect JUSTICE with the payment of the WRATH that we have earned by our sins.”

Their very pious and God honoring sounding version is the “FUNCTIONAL EQUIVALENT” to what I stated … “God demands his pound of flesh to satisfy his wrath before he is free to show mercy”.

So my response remains “where does SCRIPTURE say that?” … where is the “Transfer of Wrath” discussed?

I will stay out of this one. . and I'm in agreement with you for the record.

 

[Arial]

On the other hand, people will say something like “GOD is perfect in his JUSTICE and perfect in his MERCY, therefore God cannot simply Forgive Sin by just ‘letting it slide’ without satisfying the demand of God’s perfect JUSTICE with the payment of the WRATH that we have earned by our sins.”

Maybe people will. But it isn't wrath that is being paid for. It is sin and sins that is being paid for, so the saints do not face his wrath. The justice being satisfied is against sin. Where there is no sin, there is no wrath.

 

[civic]

Maybe people will. But it isn't wrath that is being paid for. It is sin and sins that is being paid for, so the saints do not face his wrath. The justice being satisfied is against sin. Where there is no sin, there is no wrath.

You described the Passover. And He is our Passover and we are covered/protected by His blood in the Atonement He made for our sins.