Total Depravity

[Lees]

I have addressed Romans 5 often in this forum. If you did not bother to read them what can I say? Now if you have a specific question, I will try to answer it.

That is not true. You refuse to address my post #(22) and #(25), save only maybe 5%, Though I have asked you several times. Posts #(82) and (88).

In other words, just because you reply to my post with a one liner saying 'I am wrong', is not addressing the post. Only in 'your' mind.

Lees

 

[Lees]

It is so frustrating when it is obvious that you do not understand even what I post. There is really no way to respond in that case. What do you mean by "going to the cross again, over and over"? I didn't say anything about that.

That's because you don't know anything about it. If Adam's sin is not imputed to all, making all guilty of his sin, then all cannot be redeemed in One Man, Christ, because Christs righteous act cannot be imputed to all.

Christ can only die once. (Heb. 10:10). So if His gift of righteousness is not imputed to all, through His substitutionary death, then He must die over and over again for each one who is to be saved. And that won't happen. So, I guess you're the one He chose to be that lucky one...correct?

Lees

 

[Arial]

To take so much of the Psalms as doctrine as literally stated is a serious mistake. If you demand a literal interpretation of Psalms 51:5 then you must also demand a literal interpretation of Psalms 51:7 which is the solution given for the problem posed in verse 5:

Psalms 51:7 Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean; wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow.

I do hope you have a source of hyssop so that you can become clean

Psalm 58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb; These who speak falsehood wander in error from birth.

Ps 51:7 was literal when David wrote the Psalm. It was a part of the old covenant with Israel.
gotquestions.org/hyssop-Bible.html

As for Psalms 58:3, let's see what else it say about the wicked;

Psalms 58:4 They have venom like the venom of a serpent, like the deaf adder that stops its ear,

Psalm 58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb; These who speak falsehood wander in error from birth.

??? 58:4 is describing the same ones in v 3. Estranged from the womb, wander in error from birth is a literal expression of the condition of mankind. Verse 4 is a comparison figure of speech----and everyone knows that. It is not a matter of Psalms needing to be always interpreted as literal or always interpreted as figurative. To say one verse is not literal because another is figurative is a very bad interpretive method.

If you are going to insist on a literal reading of those passages, you have some major changes to make in your theology.

See above. And why did you not address

Proverbs 22:15 Folly is bound up in the heart of a child; The rod of discipline will remove it far from him.

 

[JIM]

That's because you don't know anything about it. If Adam's sin is not imputed to all, making all guilty of his sin, then all cannot be redeemed in One Man, Christ, because Christs righteous act cannot be imputed to all.

That is nothing short of jibberish. Who imputed Adam's sin to the unborn? God? Is that who you think God is? What kind of a judge would even consider such a thing?

Christ can only die once. (Heb. 10:10). So if His gift of righteousness is not imputed to all, through His substitutionary death, then He must die over and over again for each one who is to be saved. And that won't happen. So, I guess you're the one He chose to be that lucky one...correct?

What in the world are you talking about? Of course Christ died only once. That was for the whole world. First it negated any possibility for original sin and second, it paid the debt for the sins of all who believe. And those who do not believe are eternally condemned for their own sins not the sins of anyone else including Adam.

 

[Lees]

That is nothing short of jibberish. Who imputed Adam's sin to the unborn? God? Is that who you think God is? What kind of a judge would even consider such a thing?

What in the world are you talking about? Of course Christ died only once. That was for the whole world. First it negated any possibility for original sin and second, it paid the debt for the sins of all who believe. And those who do not believe are eternally condemned for their own sins not the sins of anyone else including Adam.

Yes, God. The kind of Judge Who would consider such a thing is God, the final Judge. It is that way so that God can die for all. If it's not that way, He cannot die for all.

I just told you what I am talking about. Yes Christ died for the whole world once, through 'imputation'. His sacrifice is sufficient for the whole world. If 'imputation' is not involved then it's just a life for a life. Which means only one can be saved through Christ's death.

In other words, all being made guilty in Adam's sin is the best thing God did for us. It made it possible for all to have their sins paid for in One Man, Christ.

No, original sin is necessary, Adam's sin imputed to his race, so that the possibility exists due to Christs gift, the imputation of righteousness, can be imputed to His race.

Again, if imputation is not involved, it is one for one.

Lees

 

[JIM]

Yes, God. The kind of Judge Who would consider such a thing is God, the final Judge. It is that way so that God can die for all. If it's not that way, He cannot die for all.

I just told you what I am talking about. Yes Christ died for the whole world once, through 'imputation'. His sacrifice is sufficient for the whole world. If 'imputation' is not involved then it's just a life for a life. Which means only one can be saved through Christ's death.

In other words, all being made guilty in Adam's sin is the best thing God did for us. It made it possible for all to have their sins paid for in One Man, Christ.

No, original sin is necessary, Adam's sin imputed to his race, so that the possibility exists due to Christs gift, the imputation of righteousness, can be imputed to His race.

Again, if imputation is not involved, it is one for one.

Lees

Again, gibberish! You really believe that God would send you to hell for what Adam did?. Shame, shame, shame. If you really believe that about God, then you and I are through. I want nothing to do with you at all. I that is not the Satan's lie, then nothing is.

 

[Lees]

Again, gibberish! You really believe that God would send you to hell for what Adam did?. Shame, shame, shame.

Well, due to Adam's sin being imputed to his race, all became guilty of Adam's sin and became sinners. Any and all would have opportunity to exercise faith and be saved. If they refused to exercise that faith towards God, then, yes, they go to hell.

Shame really belongs to you, not me. Through your doctrine, only one can be saved by Christs Sacrifice. Which means you would send a lot more people to hell than my doctrine would.

Lees

 

[Lees]

@JIM

Consider this. God established His action of using 'imputation' way back with Abraham.

Abram delivered Lot from certain kings who had taken him. (Gen. 14:13-16)

Upon returning from that victory, one met him named Melchizedek. He had the title 'priest of the most high God'. (Gen. 14:18) And Melchizedek brought bread and wine for Abram. And Melchizedek blessed him. (Gen. 14:18-19)

(Gen. 14:20) "And blessed be the most high God, which hath delivered thine enemies into thy hand, And he gave him tithes of all." Now, who paid tithes to who?"

(Heb. 7:4) "Now consider how great this man was, unto whom even the patriarch Abraham gave the tenth of the spoils." When Abraham paid tithes to Melchizedek, he acknowleged the superiority of Melchizedek over him. (Heb. 7:7) "And without contradiction the less is blessed of the better. "

The point being made here is that Levi, who was still unborn and in the loins of Abraham, paid tithes to Melchizedek also. (Heb. 7:9-10) "And as I may so say, Levi also, who receiveth tithes, payed tithes in Abraham. For he was yet in the loins of his father when Melchisedec met him."
Thus proving the superiority of the priesthood of Christ after Melchizedek, over the Aaronic priesthood. (Heb. 6:20) "Whither the forerunner is for us entered, even Jesus, made an high priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec."

You see? The actions of Abraham were imputed to Levi while he was still in the loins of Abraham. God establishing the necessary doctrine of imputation to save His people.

Lees

 

[JIM]

@JIM

Consider this. God established His action of using 'imputation' way back with Abraham.

Abram delivered Lot from certain kings who had taken him. (Gen. 14:13-16)

Upon returning from that victory, one met him named Melchizedek. He had the title 'priest of the most high God'. (Gen. 14:18) And Melchizedek brought bread and wine for Abram. And Melchizedek blessed him. (Gen. 14:18-19)

(Gen. 14:20) "And blessed be the most high God, which hath delivered thine enemies into thy hand, And he gave him tithes of all." Now, who paid tithes to who?"

(Heb. 7:4) "Now consider how great this man was, unto whom even the patriarch Abraham gave the tenth of the spoils." When Abraham paid tithes to Melchizedek, he acknowleged the superiority of Melchizedek over him. (Heb. 7:7) "And without contradiction the less is blessed of the better. "

The point being made here is that Levi, who was still unborn and in the loins of Abraham, paid tithes to Melchizedek also. (Heb. 7:9-10) "And as I may so say, Levi also, who receiveth tithes, payed tithes in Abraham. For he was yet in the loins of his father when Melchisedec met him."
Thus proving the superiority of the priesthood of Christ after Melchizedek, over the Aaronic priesthood. (Heb. 6:20) "Whither the forerunner is for us entered, even Jesus, made an high priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec."

You see? The actions of Abraham were imputed to Levi while he was still in the loins of Abraham. God establishing the necessary doctrine of imputation to save His people.

Lees

Nothing is imputed. All the Levites simply followed in Abraham's steps, so to speak, receiving tithes from the people ol Israel according to the law of Moses.

 

[Lees]

Nothing is imputed. All the Levites simply followed in Abraham's steps, so to speak, receiving tithes from the people ol Israel according to the law of Moses.

(Heb. 7:9-10) "And as I may so say, Levi also, who receiveth tithes, payed tithes in Abraham. For he was yet in the loins of his father, when Melchisedec met him."

Just like those 'in Adam' sinned with Adam.

Lees

 

[Carbon]

That's because you don't know anything about it. If Adam's sin is not imputed to all, making all guilty of his sin, then all cannot be redeemed in One Man, Christ, because Christs righteous act cannot be imputed to all.

It does make a difference what you mean by all.

 

[Carbon]

That is nothing short of jibberish. Who imputed Adam's sin to the unborn? God? Is that who you think God is? What kind of a judge would even consider such a thing?

Friend, all of the posterity is born spiritually dead. Disnt God say, if you eat of this tree you shall surely die?

 

[Carbon]

Again, gibberish! You really believe that God would send you to hell for what Adam did?. Shame, shame, shame. If you really believe that about God, then you and I are through. I want nothing to do with you at all. I that is not the Satan's lie, then nothing is.

Adam was our representative. Adam spiritually died in the fall. Adam could give birth to none other than those spiritually dead.


Do you really not get this?

 

[Carbon]

That is nothing short of jibberish. Who imputed Adam's sin to the unborn? God? Is that who you think God is? What kind of a judge would even consider such a thing?

Again, gibberish! You really believe that God would send you to hell for what Adam did?. Shame, shame, shame. If you really believe that about God, then you and I are through. I want nothing to do with you at all. I that is not the Satan's lie, then nothing is.

Human nature, at that time solely existed in Adam and was created as being in the covenant of works. Adam didn't enter into the covenant of works subsequent to his creation but was created in this covenant. So he was in the covenant of works from the very instant of his existence.
At the very instant he formulated his first thought he was conscience of God and the covenant, he knew nothing else.

Therefore Jim, "the human nature" in its totality, as well as the entire human race in Adam, were created in this covenant. Are you following so far? This is important if you are to understand.

Therefore, all people are stillborn within the covenant of works. So, do you understand, upon Adam's breach of the covenant, "the human nature", in its totality, that is "the entire human race", broke the covenant.

So, it is, therefore, righteous that this nature of the human race is rendered guilty, and that every human being, every person, by virtue of having this same nature, has the covenant breach imputed unto him and is deemed worthy of condemnation.

So, it's only Adam's breach of the covenant and not his subsequent sins that are imputed to his posterity. And it's not only because we all are partakers of the same nature as Adam but because we were created in the covenant of works in Adam and we have all broken it in him.

@JIM I Hope you understand this and stop making silly accusations.

 

[Carbon]

Human nature, at that time solely existed in Adam and was created as being in the covenant of works. Adam didn't enter into the covenant of works subsequent to his creation but was created in this covenant. So he was in the covenant of works from the very instant of his existence.
At the very instant he formulated his first thought he was conscience of God and the covenant, he knew nothing else.

Therefore Jim, "the human nature" in its totality, as well as the entire human race in Adam, were created in this covenant. Are you following so far? This is important if you are to understand.

Therefore, all people are stillborn within the covenant of works. So, do you understand, upon Adam's breach of the covenant, "the human nature", in its totality, that is "the entire human race", broke the covenant.

So, it is, therefore, righteous that this nature of the human race is rendered guilty, and that every human being, every person, by virtue of having this same nature, has the covenant breach imputed unto him and is deemed worthy of condemnation.

So, it's only Adam's breach of the covenant and not his subsequent sins that are imputed to his posterity. And it's not only because we all are partakers of the same nature as Adam but because we were created in the covenant of works in Adam and we have all broken it in him.

@JIM I Hope you understand this and stop making silly accusations.

@JIM

The righteous imputation of the covenant breach to all men is evident from the following, Romans 5:12-18.

12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

13 For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.

17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. Romans 5.

Notice in v:12 we do not read that all men are sinful, but that all men have sinned.

It's clear that sin is the cause of death, also of corporal death, and it is not true that death is the result of man's sinful nature, even if no sinful act has been committed. See Ch,10.

It's also evident that little children prior to birth also must be guilty of sin because they die.
Vs:14 teaches they are not guilty of actual sin. They are guilty of a sin that has been imputed unto them. And the only sin that can be imputed unto them is Adam's breach of the covenant.

 

[Carbon]

@JIM

Also consider this, if all men were not guilty of Adam's breach of the covenant and sin not being righteously imputed unto them, then each person would enter this world as perfectly as Adam did. That is, adorned with the image of God. We all would have been created innocent rational creatures in harmony with God's holy nature. We would all be on our own created in a perfect existence as Adam, and we all would be able to remain in a possible state of perfection. And we know that aint true.

 

[Carbon]

Our nature is precisely that which God created.

Ah, no. God did not create a fallen nature. That is something we caused. Stop accusing God of that.

It can be no other. No one, other than God Himself, has the power and authority to change what He created.

Do you not believe what God created was good?

Now it is true that by nature we choose to obey or to disobey. That is called free-will.

Your free will is subject to your nature, if it is fallen, it will not choose Christ and life.

And in disobeying, which everyone who lives long enough will disobey, we sin and become objects of wrath.

You build your whole religion on man,

 

[Carbon]

Nothing is imputed. All the Levites simply followed in Abraham's steps, so to speak, receiving tithes from the people ol Israel according to the law of Moses.

Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me. Psalm 51:5.

 

[Lees]

It does make a difference what you mean by all.

If Adam's sin is not imputed to all, making all guilty of his sin, then all cannot be redeemed in One Man, Christ, because Christs righteous act cannot be imputed to all.

Lees

The 'all' is all in Adams race, who are born of him.

The 'all' is all in Christ's race, those born of God.

Adams sin doomed his whole race. 'All'

As Adam's sin doomed his whole race, Christ's substitutionary sacrifice was sufficient to redeem his whole race. 'All'.

But though it was sufficient to redeem all, only those who would come by faith would be incoporated into Christ.

In other words, Christ dying for all, did not place all in Christ. One must be 'in Christ'. And to be 'in Christ' one must exericse the faith in Christ.

Lees

 

[Carbon]

The 'all' is all in Adams race, who are born of him.

The 'all' is all in Christ's race, those born of God.

Adams sin doomed his whole race. 'All'

As Adam's sin doomed his whole race, Christ's substitutionary sacrifice was sufficient to redeem his whole race. 'All'.

But though it was sufficient to redeem all, only those who would come by faith would be incoporated into Christ.

In other words, Christ dying for all, did not place all in Christ. One must be 'in Christ'. And to be 'in Christ' one must exericse the faith in Christ.

Lees

Thanks for the explanation.