Total Depravity

[Lees]

Thanks for the explanation.

You are quite welcome.

Lees

 

[Carbon]

Are you really saying that God forms a spirit dead in sin in the new born baby?

How do you get that out of what he said?

 

[JIM]

Friend, all of the posterity is born spiritually dead. Disnt God say, if you eat of this tree you shall surely die?

Did you eat of that tree?

The spirits of men are from God. God doesn't form dead spirits. You were dead in your own trespasses and sins, not anyone else's.

 

[JIM]

Adam was our representative. Adam spiritually died in the fall. Adam could give birth to none other than those spiritually dead.


Do you really not get this?

Jesus said, "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit" (John 3:3).

Do you really not get that? Your traducianism is totally false.

 

[JIM]

Human nature, at that time solely existed in Adam and was created as being in the covenant of works. Adam didn't enter into the covenant of works subsequent to his creation but was created in this covenant. So he was in the covenant of works from the very instant of his existence.
At the very instant he formulated his first thought he was conscience of God and the covenant, he knew nothing else.

What are you talking about? What covenant of works?

Therefore Jim, "the human nature" in its totality, as well as the entire human race in Adam, were created in this covenant. Are you following so far? This is important if you are to understand.

No, I am not following you at all. Again, what covenant of works?

Therefore, all people are stillborn within the covenant of works. So, do you understand, upon Adam's breach of the covenant, "the human nature", in its totality, that is "the entire human race", broke the covenant.

So, it is, therefore, righteous that this nature of the human race is rendered guilty, and that every human being, every person, by virtue of having this same nature, has the covenant breach imputed unto him and is deemed worthy of condemnation.

So, it's only Adam's breach of the covenant and not his subsequent sins that are imputed to his posterity. And it's not only because we all are partakers of the same nature as Adam but because we were created in the covenant of works in Adam and we have all broken it in him.

Adam died spiritually because he disobeyed God. That is the only way that anyone dies spiritually. Whether God's commands come verbally direct from God as in the case of Adam, Abel, Cain, ...., Abraham, etc. or through one such as Moses, one dies spiritually only by disobeying God.

Eze 18:3 As I live, declares the Lord GOD, this proverb shall no more be used by you in Israel.
Eze 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; the soul of the father as well as the soul of the son is mine: the soul who sins shall die.

@JIM I Hope you understand this and stop making silly accusations.

Personally I think the really silly accusation in all of this is that God imputed Adam's sin to the rest of mankind.

 

[JIM]

@JIM

Also consider this, if all men were not guilty of Adam's breach of the covenant and sin not being righteously imputed unto them, then each person would enter this world as perfectly as Adam did. That is, adorned with the image of God. We all would have been created innocent rational creatures in harmony with God's holy nature. We would all be on our own created in a perfect existence as Adam, and we all would be able to remain in a possible state of perfection.

PRECISELY! ! ! !

And we know that aint true.

You may think that ain't true, but you are wrong. That is precisely the situation. You were in a state of perfection until you committed your first sin.

Mat_19:14 but Jesus said, "Let the little children come to me and do not hinder them, for to such belongs the kingdom of heaven."

Only those in a state of perfection, as born originally or as imputed in rebirth, are in the kingdom of heaven.

I would note here that Jesus proved that it is possible to remain in a state of perfection. It is just that he is the only one to every do so. That is partly because even if someone lived their entire life having disobeyed only a single time, they would be guilty of all of it (James 2:10).

 

[JIM]

@JIM

The righteous imputation of the covenant breach to all men is evident from the following, Romans 5:12-18.

12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

13 For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.

17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. Romans 5.

Notice in v:12 we do not read that all men are sinful, but that all men have sinned.

It's clear that sin is the cause of death, also of corporal death, and it is not true that death is the result of man's sinful nature, even if no sinful act has been committed. See Ch,10.

It's also evident that little children prior to birth also must be guilty of sin because they die.
Vs:14 teaches they are not guilty of actual sin. They are guilty of a sin that has been imputed unto them. And the only sin that can be imputed unto them is Adam's breach of the covenant.

Oh if only you would hear what Paul said in Romans 5.

As I have pointed out so many times here, corporal death is an integral feature of creation. There is no such thing as biological immortality and there never was. God put the tree of life in the garden as a protection against dying so long as they were in the garden. Once ejected from the garden, they no longer had access to that fruit, and their mortality eventually ruled.

So your argument that children die because of Adam's sin imputed to them is false. Children die because they are physically mortal and, in this world, bad things can happen.

 

[JIM]

Ah, no. God did not create a fallen nature. That is something we caused. Stop accusing God of that.

Well yes, you are correct. Our fallen nature results from our having sinned. It does not come from Adam having sinned. In fact, given that only God couldi have, but didn't, impute the sin of Adam to the whole of the human race, it is only in your soteriology that there is any accusation that God caused the "fall" of mankind.

Do you not believe what God created was good?

Of course.

Your free will is subject to your nature, if it is fallen, it will not choose Christ and life.

As you noted, the fallen nature is something we caused. But more to the point, you ascribe more to that "fallen nature" than does the Bible. There is no place in the entire Bible where it says that we cannot choose Christ and life. Most, even given the opportunity, don't. But there is nothing that says they couldn't.

You have the belief that God cannot or does not communicate with the unregenerated; but Jesus said that was not true.

Joh 16:7 Nevertheless, I tell you the truth: it is to your advantage that I go away, for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you. But if I go, I will send him to you. 8 And when he comes, he will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment: 9 concerning sin, because they do not believe in me; 10 concerning righteousness, because I go to the Father, and you will see me no longer; 11 concerning judgment, because the ruler of this world is judged.

Regeneration is for those who believe.

Mar 16:16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved,

Rom 3:28 For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law.

Rom_5:1 Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.

Eph 1:13 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,

Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,

Col 2:12 having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the powerful working of God, who raised him from the dead.

Gal 3:24 So then, the law was our guardian until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith. 25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian, 26 for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith.

We are saved, born again, regenerated, justified through faith. We do not believe because we are saved; rather we are saved because we believe in God.

You build your whole religion on man,

No, I build my whole soteriology on God's word.

 

[JIM]

How do you get that out of what he said?

If, as Zechariah says, God forms the spirit of man in him and if, as @ElectedbyHim, you and so many others claim that the spirits of man are dead from birth, then it must be that God forms a dead spirit in man. That is simply not true. The very idea of it is abominable.

 

[Lees]

Personally I think the really silly accusation in all of this is that God imputed Adam's sin to the rest of mankind.

It is no longer silly, it is a dangerous thing you deny. You reject the doctrine of 'imputation' period. And you reject it in light of Scripture which clearly gives it. You reject the imputation of Levi paying tithes in Abraham making the priesthood of Melchisedec a superior priesthood, of which order Christ is of. (Heb. 7:5-10) (Heb. 7:17)

You reject two imputations given in (Rom. 5:12-14) Personal sins are not imputed to those who sinned from Adam to Moses becuase they were not under law. (Rom. 5:13)

But they died anyway. (Rom. 5:14). Why, because of Adam's sin, which is imputed to all, does result in death, because he was under law. Which means Adam's sin was imputed to all of Adam's race. The only sin they died for was Adam's.

Lees

 

[Lees]

No, I build my whole soteriology on God's word.

Not so. Your soteriology is based on denying God's Word. You deny the doctrine of imputation.

Your soteriology saves only one person. And even then it cannot save for eternity. Just till they sin again. What an empty salvation that is. But, please tell me who that lucky on is.

Lees

 

[JIM]

It is no longer silly, it is dangerous thing you deny. You reject the doctrine of 'imputation' period.

No, I do not reject the doctrine of imputation. Righteousness is imputed to those who believe in God. There is no other imputation mentioned in the Bible. And God does not impute the sins of on to another. That would be wrong and God does not do wrong.

And you reject it in light of Scripture which clearly gives it. You reject the imputation of Levi paying tithes in Abraham making the priesthood of Melchisedec a superior priesthood, of which order Christ is of. (Heb. 7:5-10) (Heb. 7:17).

That is not an imputation. That is Levi actually receiving tithes.

You reject two imputations given in (Rom. 5:12-14) Personal sins are not imputed to those who sinned from Adam to Moses becuase they were not under law. (Rom. 5:13)

Clearly you do not understand what Paul is even talking about.

Rom 2:13 For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified.14 For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them 16 on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus.

But they died anyway. (Rom. 5:14). Why, because of Adam's sin, which is imputed to all, does result in death, because he was under law. Which means Adam's sin was imputed to all of Adam's race. The only sin they died for was Adam's.

The died from their own sins.

No one dies for the sins of any other.

Eze 18:3 As I live, declares the Lord GOD, this proverb shall no more be used by you in Israel.
Eze 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; the soul of the father as well as the soul of the son is mine: the soul who sins shall die.

 

[JIM]

Not so. Your soteriology is based on denying God's Word. You deny the doctrine of imputation.

Your soteriology saves only one person. And even then it cannot save for eternity. Just till they sin again. What an empty salvation that is. But, please tell me who that lucky on is.

Lees

My soteriology saves "whosoever believes and is baptized" (Mark 16:16).

 

[Lees]

No, I do not reject the doctrine of imputation. Righteousness is imputed to those who believe in God. There is no other imputation mentioned in the Bible. And God does not impute the sins of on to another. That would be wrong and God does not do wrong.

That is not an imputation. That is Levi actually receiving tithes.

Clearly you do not understand what Paul is even talking about.

Rom 2:13 For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified.14 For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them 16 on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus.

The died from their own sins.

No one dies for the sins of any other.

Eze 18:3 As I live, declares the Lord GOD, this proverb shall no more be used by you in Israel.
Eze 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; the soul of the father as well as the soul of the son is mine: the soul who sins shall die.

If Adam does not represent his race, with his sin, by imputation, then the Last Adam cannot represent His race with His righteousness by imputation. (1 Cor. 15:45)

That is a lie. It is imputation. It's not talking about Levi receiving tithes being imputed, it is Levi paying tithes that is imputed. (Heb. 7:9-10) And that was done while he was yet in the loins of Abram. (Heb. 7:10) Nice try.

Clearly you ignore again (Rom. 5:12-14).

(Rom. 2) does nothing to explain for or against imputation. Neither does the verses you give from (Ezekiel)

Lees

 

[Lees]

My soteriology saves "whosoever believes and is baptized" (Mark 16:16).

No, your soteriology saves only one person.

When you deny the imputation of the first Adam to his race, you cannot acknowledge the imputation of the Last Adam to His race. (1 Cor. 15:22) (1 Cor. 15:45)

Lees

 

[ElectedbyHim]

If, as Zechariah says, God forms the spirit of man in him and if, as @ElectedbyHim, you and so many others claim that the spirits of man are dead from birth, then it must be that God forms a dead spirit in man. That is simply not true. The very idea of it is abominable.

I asked you this question before and I do not believe you answered.

Let me ask again.

If man is not born in sin, is man born sinless?

If you say yes, what Biblical proof do you have.

 

[Carbon]

I asked you this question before and I do not believe you answered.

Let me ask again.

If man is not born in sin, is man born sinless?

If you say yes, what Biblical proof do you have.

I’m waiting for him to answer as well.

 

[JIM]

No, your soteriology saves only one person.

When you deny the imputation of the first Adam to his race, you cannot acknowledge the imputation of the Last Adam to His race. (1 Cor. 15:22) (1 Cor. 15:45)

Lees

@Lees, I personally think you do not know what you are talking about. Imputation of the sin of one person to another person would be evil. God is not evil. Imputation of the righteousness of Jesus to a believer is merciful. God is merciful.

 

[JIM]

I asked you this question before and I do not believe you answered.

Let me ask again.

If man is not born in sin, is man born sinless?

If you say yes, what Biblical proof do you have.

Yes, man is born sinless. what sin has he committed at birth? What lawlessness has he committed? What law has he disobeyed?

 

[Carbon]

Yes, man is born sinless. what sin has he committed at birth? What lawlessness has he committed? What law has he disobeyed?

Pelagian heresy