• **Notifications**: Notifications can be dismissed by clicking on the "x" on the righthand side of the notice.
  • **New Style**: You can now change style options. Click on the paintbrush at the bottom of this page.
  • **Donations**: If the Lord leads you please consider helping with monthly costs and up keep on our Forum. Click on the Donate link In the top menu bar. Thanks
  • **New Blog section**: There is now a blog section. Check it out near the Private Debates forum or click on the Blog link in the top menu bar.
  • Welcome Visitors! Join us and be blessed while fellowshipping and celebrating our Glorious Salvation In Christ Jesus.

Total Depravity

What is your Biblical support for this statement?
Zec 12:1 The burden of the word of the LORD concerning Israel: Thus declares the LORD, who stretched out the heavens and founded the earth and formed the spirit of man within him:

Ecc 12:7 and the dust returns to the earth as it was, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.

There is more, but that should suffice. God is the source of our spirits. Do you really believe that the spirit that God forms in each of us is dead in trespasses and sins?
 
Zec 12:1 The burden of the word of the LORD concerning Israel: Thus declares the LORD, who stretched out the heavens and founded the earth and formed the spirit of man within him:

Ecc 12:7 and the dust returns to the earth as it was, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.

There is more, but that should suffice. God is the source of our spirits. Do you really believe that the spirit that God forms in each of us is dead in trespasses and sins?

Every child comes into this world as a child of God. He loses that position when he commits his first sin.

I see nothing in the verses you posted that babies are born sinless.

That is what your statement implies.
 
Then what do you think was the reason for the Tree of Life?
Did you not read the rest of my post #110?

And you said that death was an integral part of creation.

Integral: Essential or necessary for completeness.

There is a sense in which that is true, but as my post pointed out it was for God's purpose in destroying evil and death, (and not just for mankind, but for all of creation and everything in it) through the redemption of many.

However being mortal does not mean that one has to die. They wouldn't have, even after Adam sinned as long as he had access to the Tree of Life. Mortal means subject to death---not immortal. Immortal is the goal of God.

So when I said:
Physical death is not integral to creation. Adam and Eve were created mortal: able to die but not of necessity dying. Just as they were not created corrupt, but able to be corrupted. The result of the corruption is mortality.
It was a true statement. So what is it that you have issue with? And why do you pose that issue with the question "What do you think was the reason for the Tree of Life?" The purpose of the Tree of Life ( a type of Christ for he is life) is self explanatory by the words of God attached to it.

It is the very fact that God created Adam (mankind) in God's own image and likeness, setting him as the federal head over all humans, that makes Adam and all the rest of us, born of him, responsible for our sin and not God. He could have created us immortal and incorruptible. His goal for us was ultimately to change us to that state---and that he has done even though our bodies still die because we are still of the man of the earth (1 Cor 15) but we will be resurrected, changed. If he had created us immortal and incorruptible, his purpose of crushing the serpents head and conquering death would not be accomplished. It is a war in which the source of death and evil are conquered and destroyed. Big picture.
 
Yes, I read it and I understood it. I simply disagreed with it. The effect due to Adam was on the unborn or just born child. The "as - so" construction of the sentence demands then that the effect due to Jesus was also on the unborn or just born child. It is not about the effect due to Jesus on the sins they committed.
You do recall that Jesus was born of a virgin? Why would God have done it that way, besides to demonstrate that he was indeed the Son of God, but so that the Son of God was not inheriting of the sinful nature?
Do you have some special definition of the word "exegesis" so that when you explain a text, it is exegesis, but when I explain a text, it is not? Sorry, but as the saying goes, "That dog don't hunt"!
You insist that the word "all" mean "all". Ok, My use of the text agreed with your use and meaning of "all", and didn't minimize it, though you claimed it did. NOBODY (but Christ) can get around the fact that in the one man we all die, and in the (other) one man, we live. There is no other way to be made alive. THAT is the force of the argument made in the text. The point of the construction of the text is not by our common use of language, or what you might call, "plain reading". "Plain reading" at the time it was written, was most likely quite a bit different from how we --specially those of us who assume the necessity of self-determination-- nowadays read and process what is written. They MOST LIKELY did not think quite how we do now, and that, in several ways. For example, we are very individualistic --they, not so much.

Sentence structure, even in the last 400 years, even in one language, has changed dramatically, such that what looks to mean one thing often means something quite different. But to cross from one language's constructions 2000 years ago, into another 400 years ago, is necessarily going to put some obscurity into the use of a sentence or passage. For example, the word, "whatsoever", as the King James puts it, in the Greek means, simply "whatever". "Whosoever believes" in John 3:16, even for one (of my very close acquaintance) who was on the board translating the Greek into a Spanish Version, to her death still (because of her worldview) considered it to be a matter of "nobody knows --'just anybody'", when the Greek implies no such thing, but says simply, "everyone believing"; and the subjunctive "might have everlasting life", in the Old English was thought of as certain purpose, and not hypothetical unknowable wish-think chance events, the same as "that whosoever believeth...might not perish" meant "so that those believing will (would) not perish". The phrase, "God so loved" had no necessary grammatical meaning of degree --not, "God loved the world so much", as some paraphrases and supposed 'translations' put it, but simply, "God loved the world thus," or "In this way, God loved the world".

I showed, CONTEXTUALLY, how your use of the verse is mistaken --THAT was exegesis, though, granted, I didn't delve into all possible thinking on the matter, as there is not room here, nor would anyone have bothered to read the whole way through. I urged you to look into, at least the interlinear, to see a better rendering than what you produced. If you did so, you apparently did not like what you found, choosing instead to mock me for inconsistency.

Notice also, that I did not claim that my use of the text was the only logically consistent and Biblically accurate one. There are several others who think and speak more clearly than I, who are worth reading on the matter, and who you have rather obviously not read, or at least, have not read seriously, with intellectual honesty-- instead of dismissing them out-of-hand as you have what I said
 
Last edited:
The effect due to Adam was on the unborn or just born child. The "as - so" construction of the sentence demands then that the effect due to Jesus was also on the unborn or just born child. It is not about the effect due to Jesus on the sins they committed.
That is not what demands anything. It is the context that determines how a word is being used. That passage is not isolated from the rest of Paul's letter. And it is not isolated from the rest of the Bible. You have been shown this and exactly how, (which is what exegesis is) in a way that does not contradict anything else in the Bible.

What you are passing off as exegesis leaves out a great deal of information that the Bible gives on the subject and it isolates one passage entirely from its context. It examines only two words, "as" and "so" in strictly a grammatical application and says "there, done."

Exegesis: 1. Critical explanation or analysis, especially of a text.
2. Exposition; explanation; especially, a critical explanation of a text or portion of Scripture.

Critical analysis: In brief---an appraisal based on careful analytical evaluation. This involves a lot of things, not the least of which are the doctrine of God always being the base line; who wrote; who they wrote to; the rest of scriptures on the same subject that are more clear; the surrounding context; etc.
 
I have never claimed to think like an Arminian. I think as the bible tells me.
I'd say you think more like a Provinisnist.
Are you a Flower follower?
 
I'd say you think more like a Provinisnist.
Are you a Flower follower?
I don't even know what that might be. Why is that what you are?
 
Last edited:
That is not what demands anything. It is the context that determines how a word is being used. That passage is not isolated from the rest of Paul's letter. And it is not isolated from the rest of the Bible. You have been shown this and exactly how, (which is what exegesis is) in a way that does not contradict anything else in the Bible.

What you are passing off as exegesis leaves out a great deal of information that the Bible gives on the subject and it isolates one passage entirely from its context. It examines only two words, "as" and "so" in strictly a grammatical application and says "there, done."

Exegesis: 1. Critical explanation or analysis, especially of a text.
2. Exposition; explanation; especially, a critical explanation of a text or portion of Scripture.

Critical analysis: In brief---an appraisal based on careful analytical evaluation. This involves a lot of things, not the least of which are the doctrine of God always being the base line; who wrote; who they wrote to; the rest of scriptures on the same subject that are more clear; the surrounding context; etc.
You are trying to teach me what critical analysis is? I do appreciate a good laugh from time to time. Thanks.
 
I see nothing in the verses you posted that babies are born sinless.

That is what your statement implies.
Are you really saying that God forms a spirit dead in sin in the new born baby?
 
You are trying to teach me what critical analysis is? I do appreciate a good laugh from time to time. Thanks.
Anything to say that is pertinent to the conversation? There are a number of places where I gave a critical analysis and exegesis of the Romans 5 verses and you have not refuted (or even addressed) any of them with your own critical analysis and exegesis. That would be the thing to do if you know what critical analysis and exegesis are how to apply them.
 
Are you really saying that God forms a spirit dead in sin in the new born baby?
Those were not my words.

The Bible teaches we are all born sinners.

Psalm 58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb; These who speak falsehood wander in error from birth.

Psalm 51:5 Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, And in sin my mother conceived me.

Proverbs 22:15 Folly is bound up in the heart of a child; The rod of discipline will remove it far from him.

Imputed sin.

Romans 5:12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned—13 for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law.14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the trespass of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.

Romans 5:18a So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men
 
Those were not my words.

The Bible teaches we are all born sinners.

Psalm 58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb; These who speak falsehood wander in error from birth.

Psalm 51:5 Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, And in sin my mother conceived me.

Proverbs 22:15 Folly is bound up in the heart of a child; The rod of discipline will remove it far from him.

Imputed sin.

Romans 5:12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned—13 for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law.14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the trespass of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.

Romans 5:18a So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men
Amen!
 
Anything to say that is pertinent to the conversation? There are a number of places where I gave a critical analysis and exegesis of the Romans 5 verses and you have not refuted (or even addressed) any of them with your own critical analysis and exegesis. That would be the thing to do if you know what critical analysis and exegesis are how to apply them.
I have addressed Romans 5 often in this forum. If you did not bother to read them what can I say? Now if you have a specific question, I will try to answer it.
 
Those were not my words.

The Bible teaches we are all born sinners.

Psalm 58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb; These who speak falsehood wander in error from birth.

Psalm 51:5 Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, And in sin my mother conceived me.

Proverbs 22:15 Folly is bound up in the heart of a child; The rod of discipline will remove it far from him.

Imputed sin.

Romans 5:12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned—13 for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law.14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the trespass of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.

Romans 5:18a So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men
Let me start with the last one.

Romans 5:18b so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men.

Romans 5:12b death spread to all men because all (men) sinned--

To take so much of the Psalms as doctrine as literally stated is a serious mistake. If you demand a literal interpretation of Psalms 51:5 then you must also demand a literal interpretation of Psalms 51:7 which is the solution given for the problem posed in verse 5:

Psalms 51:7 Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean; wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow.

I do hope you have a source of hyssop so that you can become clean.

As for Psalms 58:3, let's see what else it say about the wicked;

Psalms 58:4 They have venom like the venom of a serpent, like the deaf adder that stops its ear,

If you are going to insist on a literal reading of those passages, you have some major changes to make in your theology.
 
Last edited:
I have addressed Romans 5 often in this forum. If you did not bother to read them what can I say? Now if you have a specific question, I will try to answer it.
You have addressed Romans 5. I have read those posts. I countered those posts and so did many others. I addressed Romans 5 by putting it into its context, both surrounding context and keeping it consistent with other places in Scripture on the same subject of original sin and Christ's work on the cross in connection to it. That is a whole different approach than one or two sentences repeated, two words in one sentence, used to determine its meaning, "as" and "so".

If you can harmonize your belief that that passage is saying Jesus, on the cross, undid what Adam did for all people and none are born as sinners but only become sinners and then he what? goes to the cross for them again, over and over?; if you can harmonize that with everything Paul wrote before that in chapter 5, and after, then do so. Then we will be getting somewhere.
 
You have addressed Romans 5. I have read those posts. I countered those posts and so did many others. I addressed Romans 5 by putting it into its context, both surrounding context and keeping it consistent with other places in Scripture on the same subject of original sin and Christ's work on the cross in connection to it. That is a whole different approach than one or two sentences repeated, two words in one sentence, used to determine its meaning, "as" and "so".

If you can harmonize your belief that that passage is saying Jesus, on the cross, undid what Adam did for all people and none are born as sinners but only become sinners and then he what? goes to the cross for them again, over and over?; if you can harmonize that with everything Paul wrote before that in chapter 5, and after, then do so. Then we will be getting somewhere.
It is so frustrating when it is obvious that you do not understand even what I post. There is really no way to respond in that case. What do you mean by "going to the cross again, over and over"? I didn't say anything about that.
 
It is so frustrating when it is obvious that you do not understand even what I post. There is really no way to respond in that case. What do you mean by "going to the cross again, over and over"? I didn't say anything about that.
I understand perfectly what you post. I don't agree with it and the reason I don't is because it is biblically unsound imo. So far you have not been able to show me I am wrong. Simply repeating your position will not get the job done. As to "going to the cross again, over and over" I did not say that you said that. It was an edit (hence the question marks surrounding it). Whether you acknowledge it or not, whether you are able to see it or not, the follow through conclusion of your theory would amount to just that.

But, if all you are going to do is not respond in any way other than the above, which has been the case post after post, then please, just stop responding. If it is important that you have the last word---be my guest. It bothers me not at all.
 
Back
Top