Total Depravity

[Carbon]

Well maybe you could point to the passages in the Bible that discuss that "fallen nature". Otherwise, I will simply consider it more of the Augustinian Gnosticism from his Manicheism background that he introduced into his theology.

I believe enough has been explained to you.

Consider it whatever you like my friend.

 

[JIM]

I don't think you take Christians seriously, I think you sit back and laugh, thinking you're giving us a hard time and causing us some confusion. Haha, if so, you're wasting your time. After all, there are many things we mention that are simple and obvious. You must get it.

I don't think for a moment that I am giving you a hard time and causing you some confusion. But I do think that on some things, specifically soteriology, you are indeed very, very confused. And your reference to a "fallen nature" is but one example of that.

Even talking to people who admittedly do not believe agree with so many obvious things in God's word.

Of course. Paul spoke about that in Romans 2 saying, "when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts...."

 

[Arial]

Being a sinful being isn't a sin. Even a sinful being is not a sinner until he commits a sin.

Being a sinful being isn't sinful? Since when and in what universe? Why do you think none but those wearing the Chris't robes of righteousness can go before his throne as we are told we can in Heb? Why in the old covenant could only the high priest after cleansing and only once a year go into the Holy of Holies and then only once a year? Why do you think Adam and Eve were thrown out of the sanctuary and from God's presence? Who do you think God is? Who do you think man is in relation to him?

 

[ElectedbyHim]

Well maybe you could point to the passages in the Bible that discuss that "fallen nature". Otherwise, I will simply consider it more of the Augustinian Gnosticism from his Manicheism background that he introduced into his theology.

Inherited sin is that sinful state into which all people are born.
Theologians have used several labels to describe this concept. (1) Some call it, as the title of this chapter, inherited sin. This emphasizes the truth that all people inherit this sinful state from their parents, and their parents from their parents, all the way back to Adam and Eve. (2) Others call it the sin nature, which focuses on the fact that sin has corrupted our entire nature. The term “sin nature” provides a clear contrast between that root nature and its fruits (which are particular acts of sin). (3) Still others prefer the term “original sin” because Adam’s original sin produced that moral corruption of nature that was transmitted by inheritance to each succeeding generation.

II. SCRIPTURAL EVIDENCE
The Bible clearly states that all aspects of man’s being are corrupt. “By nature” we are children of wrath—that is, objects of wrath (Eph. 2:3). By actions we are also objects of God’s wrath, but this verse refers to something innate. Psalm 51:5 indicates that this is something we have from conception, not something acquired by actions during our lifetimes.
Every facet of man’s being is affected by this sin nature. (1) His intellect is blinded (2 Cor. 4:4). His mind is reprobate or disapproved (Rom. 1:28). His understanding is darkened, separated from the life of God (Eph. 4:18). (2) His emotions are degraded and defiled (Rom. 1:21, 24, 26; Titus 1:15). (3) His will is enslaved to sin and therefore stands in opposition to God (Rom. 6:20; 7:20).

III. TOTAL DEPRAVITY
The scriptural evidence provides the basis for what has been commonly called total depravity. The English word “depravity” means perverted or crooked. It is not used in the translation of the King James Version, but some modern translations do use it to translate adokimos in Romans 1:28. This word means “not standing the test” and gives us a clue as to how to define the concept of depravity. Depravity means that man fails the test of pleasing God. He denotes his unmeritoriousness in God’s sight. This failure is total in that (a) it affects all aspects of man’s being and (b) it affects all people.
Negatively, the concept of total depravity does not mean (a) that every person has exhibited his depravity as thoroughly as he or she could; (b) that sinners do not have a conscience or a “native induction” concerning God; (c) that sinners will indulge in every form of sin; or (d) that depraved people do not perform actions that are good in the sight of others and even in the sight of God.
Positively, total depravity means (a) that corruption extends to every facet of man’s nature and faculties; and (b) that there is nothing in anyone that can commend him to a righteous God.
Total depravity must always be measured against God’s holiness. Relative goodness exists in people. They can do good works, which are appreciated by others. But nothing that anyone can do will gain salvational merit or favor in the sight of a holy God.

IV. THE PENALTY CONNECTED WITH INHERITED SIN
The penalty that is particularly related to inherited sin is spiritual death. Death always indicates a separation of some kind, so spiritual death means a separation from the life of God in this present life (Eph. 2:1–3). If this condition continues unchanged throughout life, then eternal death or the second death follows (Rev. 20:11–15).
Cut flowers well illustrate living human beings who do good things but who nevertheless are spiritually dead. Is the blossom that has been cut from the plant alive or dead? At first it is beautiful and fragrant, and in combination with other cut flowers, it may grace the finest home, church, or occasion. It looks alive; it is useful; but it is in reality dead, for it has been severed from the life of the plant that produced it. At this point the illustration breaks down, for it is not possible to give the flower new and eternal life, something God can do for the one who believes in the Lord Jesus.

V. THE TRANSMISSION OF INHERITED SIN
The label itself indicates how original sin is transmitted from one generation to the next and the next and the next. We inherit it from our parents as they did from theirs, and so on back to the first parents, Adam and Eve. After they sinned they could only propagate after their kind; that is, their children were sinners by birth (Gen. 4:1; Ps. 51:5; Rom. 5:12). This means that everyone born into this world is a sinner. No one is born good, nor is anyone born partly good and partly sinful. All are equally sinful in God’s sight. If this were not so, then those who were, say, only 50 percent sinful would need only 50 percent of God’s salvation.


Charles Caldwell Ryrie, Basic Theology: A Popular Systematic Guide to Understanding Biblical Truth

 

[Carbon]

I don't think for a moment that I am giving you a hard time and causing you some confusion. But I do think that on some things, specifically soteriology, you are indeed very, very confused. And your reference to a "fallen nature" is but one example of that.

Of course. Paul spoke about that in Romans 2 saying, "when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts...."

Thank you for your reply.

But don't worry, your not giving me a hard time, nor causing any confusion.

 

[Arial]

No you didn't. But more important, if you think a newborn baby can sin, then you haven't a clue even what sin is.

No. If you think babies are not born sinful you do not know what sin is or a clue to the gravity of it.

 

[Carbon]

No. If you think they can't sin you do not know what sin is or a clue to the gravity of it.

Nor has he had any children. Or never paid attention if he did.

 

[JIM]

I believe enough has been explained to you.

Yes, you have explained some things. But you haven't, for so much of it, backed it up with scripture. So please point out the passages that speak of a fallen nature and we can discuss them.

Consider it whatever you like my friend.

I consider that to be where so much of your foundational thinking comes from. And for what it is worth, I would truly like to be considered your friend in Christ, but I think you really mean it pejoratively.

 

[Arial]

Nor has he had any children. Or never paid attention if he did.

Or didn't recognize sin as sin against a holy God when it occured.

 

[JIM]

Nor has he had any children. Or never paid attention if he did.

I raised two. And I paid a great deal of attention. I recognized at what point in their lives they began to understand the meaning of obedience, first the meaning of obedience to me and their mother and then later the meaning of obedience to God and God's law. I am not sure you have come to that understanding yet.

 

[ElectedbyHim]

Or didn't recognize sin as sin against a holy God when it occured.

Ouch!

 

[Arial]

I raised two. And I paid a great deal of attention. I recognized at what point in their lives they began to understand the meaning of obedience, first the meaning of obedience to me and their mother and then later the meaning of obedience to God and God's law. I am not sure you have come to that understanding yet.

Understanding the meaning of obedience has nothing to do with what is sin and what is not.

 

[Arial]

Ouch!

Band aides on isle 4

 

[JIM]

Understanding the meaning of obedience has nothing to do with what is sin and what is not.

Are you serious? Sin is disobedience.

 

[Carbon]

I raised two. And I paid a great deal of attention. I recognized at what point in their lives they began to understand the meaning of obedience, first the meaning of obedience to me and their mother and then later the meaning of obedience to God and God's law. I am not sure you have come to that understanding yet.

My apologies.

 

[ElectedbyHim]

Band aides on isle 4

Ha

 

[Lees]

No that is you. You claim that God would impute the sin of one to another is calling God evil.

Where did that come from? Where is your proof of that.

@Carbon, do you believe what @Lees said there?

No, that is your claim, not mine. I have shown that God does impute Adams sin to his race which you say is evil. As though you know what is evil and what is not.

You were caught in a lie in post #(172) concerning (Heb. 7:9-10) I called you on it in post #(174). Of course, you ignored your lie.

I showed you again in post #(174) how Adam's sin is imputed to his race. Of course, you ignored it along with your lie.

Instead, you just say in post #(178) 'God is not evil' 'God is mericful'. So you see? It is you calling God evil, not me. You...who lied in post #(172), and refuse to acknowledge it.

So, now you ask for proof. Acknowledge your lie first. Then address what I said in post #(174) concerning Adam's sin being imputed to his race. (Rom. 5:12-14). Instead of just saying 'God is not evil'. Your claim that God is not evil, doesn't negate (Rom. 5:13-14).

Lees

 

[Lees]

Amen! It's tough dealing with people who deny the truth.

It certainly is. And it becomes worse when it is no longer just a mistake or error.

Lees

 

[makesends]

Personally I think the really silly accusation in all of this is that God imputed Adam's sin to the rest of mankind.

Do you, along with all those insisting on self-determination, not find it strange that absolutely all mankind born since Adam, have sinned? I mean, if everyone is born with free will like Adam, without corruption of the will, surely someone would choose to do right, no?

But, since Adam, only Christ has been without sin.

 

[JIM]

So, now you ask for proof. Acknowledge your lie first. Then address what I said in post #(174) concerning Adam's sin being imputed to his race. (Rom. 5:12-14). Instead of just saying 'God is not evil'. Your claim that God is not evil, doesn't negate (Rom. 5:13-14).

There is nothing in Romans 5:12-14 that speaks even one word about Adam's sin being imputed to his race. Verse 12 says the spiritual death spread to all men because they sin. Nothing there about any imputation.

Verse 13 is telling us that even though the law of Moses had not yet been given, there was indeed law. It says that if there is no law, then there is not sin, but it says that there was sin, therefore there was law.

Verse 14 doesn't say there was no sin like Adam's, which was disobedience to a direct command of God. It says that there was sin which was disobedience against law, not given directly by God. That is why I took you back to chapter 2 showing you that even among the gentiles there was law, even if it was not verbally given by God.

Nothing, absolutely nothing in all of that has anything to do with any heretical teaching about Adam's sin being imputed to mankind.