Total Depravity. Was it a misnomer?

[Carbon]

Original Sin produces Total Depravity; and Total Depravity is the leavening of the whole lump of our Being with Sin, resulting in our always Falling Short of the Glory of God...

Total Depravity is no different than Women having pain in childbirth; it's an Unconditional Consequence of the Fall of Adam. There is no Condition we must meet, to aquire an Unconditional Consequence...

And total depravity is a state of being at enmity with God. That enmity must be removed before we can possess faith.

 

[Carbon]

Question:

If Adam's sin is imputed to us (Ro 5:12-19) and we are, therefore, born guilty and condemned (Ro 5:18),
if we inherit his fallen nature (Eph 2:3),
if we have a second Adam in Christ (1 Co 5:45), thereby corresponding Christ to Adam,

why do we need the "Federal Head of Mankind" notion?

Isn't first and second Adam enough?

Anybody?

You presented an example of federal headship above.

Well, the first and second Adam is describing Federal Headship to a degree.

 

[Carbon]

Now I can understand this in a poetic way...but the Bible isn't poetic about this. Adam disobeyed God and fell. He didn't fall physically. He fell spiritually. Because of him all of creation ( not just man ) came under the curse of sin and therefore death.

Adam was our ( Christians ) federal head. God had placed His creation under Adam's dominion. All under Adam must die.

Through repentance and faith in Jesus we share in His ( Jesus's ) death and resurrection. We, spiritually, pass from death into life. In so doing we die to Adam and are placed under the headship of Christ.

This physical body of mine will one day die or be translated because it still carries the curse and cannot inherit immortality. It is not, in and of itself, "bad". It is cursed by God through Adam. It will die in weakness and sin but be raised in the power and righteousness of Christ.

This is all very pedantic but you seem to be wandering down a different road.

Amen.

 

[Eleanor]

You presented an example of federal headship above.

Well, the first and second Adam is describing Federal Headship to a degree.

What I don't understand is why the nomenclature not found in Scripture.

 

[Carbon]

What I don't understand is why the nomenclature not found in Scripture.

Do you mean like the words "Federal Headship?"

For the same reason, Trinity isn't found in scripture. But it sure is taught.

 

[Eleanor]

Do you mean like the words "Federal Headship?"

For the same reason, Trinity isn't found in scripture. But it sure is taught.

I'm thinking First Adam and Second Adam cover that, yes?

 

[Carbon]

Not preached as the apostles preached. But the gospel extends all the way back to the garden.

The priest laying his hands on the goats heads is the gospel.

 

[Eleanor]

Not preached as the apostles preached. But the gospel extends all the way back to the garden.

I'm thinking in terms of NT preaching, as in Acts 2.

 

[GeneZ]

Are you saying a regenerated person does not have the Spirit?

Until Pentecost? A regenerated person had a human spirit.
An unregenerate person consisted of only body and soul, no human spirit.

Peter was a believer before Pentecost. He was regenerate. Peter was body, soul, and human spirit.

After Pentecost, Peter was body, soul, human spirit, and the indwelling Holy Spirit.


The human spirit and the Holy Spirit are not one and the same.

"The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God’s children." Rom 8:16​

​

"May God himself, the God of peace, sanctify you through and through. ​

May your whole spirit, soul and body be kept blameless at the coming ​

of our Lord Jesus Christ." 1 Thes 5:23​

Before the Church age all believers were trichotomous. Body soul and human spirit.
The unbeliever was dichotomous - only body and soul. No regeneration.

grace and peace .................

 

[Eleanor]

Until Pentecost? A regenerated person had a human spirit.
An unregenerate person consisted of only body and soul, no human spirit.

Au contraire. . .

The immortal human spirit is the animating principle of the human being (and the locus of the Holy Spirit at the re-impartation of divine eternal life in the rebirth).
When its immortal spirit departs, the body of the human being is without life (2 Co 5:1-9).

 

[Carbon]

Until Pentecost? A regenerated person had a human spirit.
An unregenerate person consisted of only body and soul, no human spirit.

So Abraham for example, God declared his flesh good (declared righteous) because he believed without God?

 

[GeneZ]

Au contraire. . .

The immortal human spirit is the animating principle of the human being (and the locus of the Holy Spirit at the re-impartation of divine eternal life in the rebirth).
When its immortal spirit departs, the body of the human being is without life (2 Co 5:1-9).

How you got all what you said specifically from the passage you just cited?
Is beyond me..

​

For we know that if the earthly tent we live in is destroyed, we ​

have a building from God, an eternal house in heaven, not built ​

by human hands. Meanwhile we groan, longing to be clothed ​

instead with our heavenly dwelling, because when we are clothed, ​

we will not be found naked. For while we are in this tent, we ​

groan and are burdened, because we do not wish to be unclothed ​

but to be clothed instead with our heavenly dwelling, so that what ​

is mortal may be swallowed up by life. Now the one who has ​

fashioned us for this very purpose is God, who has given us the ​

Spirit as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.​

​

Therefore we are always confident and know that as long as ​

we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord. For​

we live by faith, not by sight. We are confident, I say, and ​

would prefer to be away from the body and at home with ​

the Lord. So we make it our goal to please him, whether ​

we are at home in the body or away from it." 2 Cor 5:1-9​

................................................

 

[GeneZ]

So Abraham for example, God declared his flesh good (declared righteous) because he believed without God?

Abraham was a righteous soul.

Having the same righteousness as his nephew Lot.

Righteousness for they had believed in the Lord.

We believe with our soul, not our body. A body does not believe.


"If he condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah by burning them to ashes,
and made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly; and if
he rescued Lot, a righteous man, who was distressed by the depraved conduct
of the lawless (for that righteous man, living among them day after day, was
tormented in his righteous soul by the lawless deeds he saw and heard).
2 Peter 2:6-8

 

[Eleanor]

How you got all what you said specifically from the passage you just cited?
Is beyond me..

​

For we know that if the earthly tent we live in is destroyed, we ​

have a building from God, an eternal house in heaven, not built ​

by human hands. Meanwhile we groan, longing to be clothed ​

instead with our heavenly dwelling, because when we are clothed, ​

we will not be found naked. For while we are in this tent, we ​

groan and are burdened, because we do not wish to be unclothed ​

but to be clothed instead with our heavenly dwelling, so that what ​

is mortal may be swallowed up by life. Now the one who has ​

fashioned us for this very purpose is God, who has given us the ​

Spirit as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.​

​

Therefore we are always confident and know that as long as ​

we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord. For​

we live by faith, not by sight. We are confident, I say, and ​

would prefer to be away from the body and at home with ​

the Lord. So we make it our goal to please him, whether ​

we are at home in the body or away from it." 2 Cor 5:1-9​

................................................

The passage goes to the separation of the spirit from the body (to be with Christ) at/as human death, and Paul preferring that separation by death that his spirit may be with Christ.

we = human spirit
earthly tent = human body
heavenly dwelling = resurrection body
naked = human spirit separated from its tent (human body)

 

[Carbon]

Abraham was a righteous soul.

Having the same righteousness as his nephew Lot.

Righteousness for they had believed in the Lord.

We believe with our soul, not our body. A body does not believe.


"If he condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah by burning them to ashes,
and made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly; and if
he rescued Lot, a righteous man, who was distressed by the depraved conduct
of the lawless (for that righteous man, living among them day after day, was
tormented in his righteous soul by the lawless deeds he saw and heard).
2 Peter 2:6-8

..................


Okay, thanks.

 

[Eleanor]

..................


Okay, thanks.

Good grief!

What happened to your avatar?

 

[Carbon]

Good grief!

What happened to your avatar?

Oh no? I thought I would scare everyone. I better change it back before everyone leaves.

 

[GeneZ]

The passage goes to the separation of the spirit from the body (to be with Christ) at/as human death, and Paul preferring that separation by death that his spirit may be with Christ.

we = human spirit
earthly tent = human body
heavenly dwelling = resurrection body
naked = human spirit separated from its tent (human body)

Oy vey....
We = soul.

You want to believe we are spirit? Then we would not need to be born again if that were so.
We (who are regenerate) are body, soul, and spirit.

​

1 Thessalonians 5:23​

​

May God himself, the God of peace, sanctify you through and through. ​

May your whole spirit, soul and body be kept blameless at the coming ​

of our Lord Jesus Christ." ​

What about that soul it speaks of?

grace and peace .........................

 

[makesends]

Try thinking of events as the Bible presents them to happen.

Try to think of how the Bible presents them, from God's point of view, best you can. Be skeptical of your own point of view.

 

[Eleanor]

They received the Holy Spirit as the OT prophets did.

In contrast....

The Church (only after Jesus was glorified) has now become the Temple of the Holy Spirit.

For example.. David, being OT, prayed for the Lord not to remove His Spirit from him.
With us, being the New Creation? The Spirit promises He will never leave us nor forsake us.

That is why when some Christians choose to be knuckleheads and think in his emotions with head knowledge, the Spirit remains in him grieved, or quenched. OT saints had a different relationship with the Holy Spirit. Not the same thing as ours.

The apostles in John 20 were not yet a new creation in Christ. They still functioned as OT believers. They were still as Jews.


OT believers for the first time transformed into being the New Creation in Christ at Pentecost.

The tongues of fire of the Holy Spirit and the speaking in tongues were only upon the apostles, empowering them to take the gospel to mankind, which witness of the Holy Spirit accompanied their preaching bringing many to NT faith, 3,000 on that day.