Total Depravity. Was it a misnomer?

[GeneZ]

Man since the fall of Adam has been depraved. Meaning...
Man took on a fallen nature that dominates over his thinking.

He can not believe unless God supplies grace to overcome his sinful flesh that will be dominating over the soul.

Without grace man is totally helpless to resist his sin nature in relation to God's Spirit.
So, that being so. Without God's enabling power of grace man's soul will always reject God.

Its the flesh's dominance over the soul prevents man's soul from accepting God.

But, to say man is totally depraved?
Leaves God with nothing to save.

When God saves a soul he has crucified that man's flesh in Christ.

Again, to say man is totally depraved? Leaves God with nothing to save.

Total depravity would have to mean that the flesh and soul are each hopelessly depraved.

But, there is a total depravity!

Man will become totally depraved when he insists upon rejecting God during times that grace was being implemented to paralyze the effects of the flesh over the soul. Paralyzing the sin nature is by grace makes that soul momentarily truly free to either choose for, or against God, while God was drawing him by grace.

If that soul during God's drawing was not being controlled by the flesh because grace was holding its effect over the soul down? Its then that the soul chooses to be depraved. Just like Satan and his angels chose from their perfection to reject the Lord did, to claim themselves God over their own lives.

Now.. with total depravity being established? That soul is sent to the Lake of Fire. There was nothing to save = Total depravity.

grace and peace ......................

 

[civic]

Man since the fall of Adam has been depraved. Meaning...
Man took on a fallen nature that dominates over his thinking.

He can not believe unless God supplies grace to overcome his sinful flesh that will be dominating over the soul.

Without grace man is totally helpless to resist his sin nature in relation to God's Spirit.
So, that being so. Without God's enabling power of grace man's soul will always reject God.

Its the flesh's dominance over the soul prevents man's soul from accepting God.

But, to say man is totally depraved?
Leaves God with nothing to save.

When God saves a soul he has crucified that man's flesh in Christ.

Again, to say man is totally depraved? Leaves God with nothing to save.

Total depravity would have to mean that the flesh and soul are each hopelessly depraved.

But, there is a total depravity!

Man will become totally depraved when he insists upon rejecting God during times that grace was being implemented to paralyze the effects of the flesh over the soul. Paralyzing the sin nature is by grace makes that soul momentarily truly free to either choose for, or against God, while God was drawing him by grace.

If that soul during God's drawing was not being controlled by the flesh because grace was holding its effect over the soul down? Its then that the soul chooses to be depraved. Just like Satan and his angels chose from their perfection to reject the Lord did, to claim themselves God over their own lives.

Now.. with total depravity being established? That soul is sent to the Lake of Fire. There was nothing to save = Total depravity.

grace and peace ......................

Welcome mean Gene the dancin machine. Good to see you here brother.

 

[CrazyCalvinistUncle]

Man since the fall of Adam has been depraved. Meaning...
Man took on a fallen nature that dominates over his thinking.

The formulation of "total depravity" is not that man is totally corrupt. It is that all aspects of man are corrupted. In other words the "whole" of man is corrupted. Man is not as bad as he *could* be but there is no uncorrupted part of him.

Or to think of it another way...consider a perfect mirror. It reflects whatever stands in front of it perfectly. A perfect image.

Now smudge it with your thumb. The image is marred. No matter where you stand that smudge sticks out like a sore...well...thumb. It is a corrupted image. No longer perfect. Not as bad as if you had, say, spray painted the mirror black. But not perfect either.

 

[Alive]

The formulation of "total depravity" is not that man is totally corrupt. It is that all aspects of man are corrupted. In other words the "whole" of man is corrupted. Man is not as bad as he *could* be but there is no uncorrupted part of him.

Or to think of it another way...consider a perfect mirror. It reflects whatever stands in front of it perfectly. A perfect image.

Now smudge it with your thumb. The image is marred. No matter where you stand that smudge sticks out like a sore...well...thumb. It is a corrupted image. No longer perfect. Not as bad as if you had, say, spray painted the mirror black. But not perfect either.

I like to think of this as fallen man being incapable of any decision or choice 'Godward'. His very 'being' is death and darkness. Its an ontological thing. Put another way--and one of these days Lord willing I will write what I think He is teaching me--is the force that animates him, is death and darkness. That man needs to die and be given a New Life and the gulf between the two 'states' is impossible to bridge. God must do it.

 

[CrazyCalvinistUncle]

I just cleaned that mirror!

Isn't that the perfect statement for works righteousness?

 

[Alive]

I like where Jesus said, "you are all clean".
Oops--you are clean but not all of you.
;-)

 

[GeneZ]

The formulation of "total depravity" is not that man is totally corrupt. It is that all aspects of man are corrupted. In other words the "whole" of man is corrupted. Man is not as bad as he *could* be but there is no uncorrupted part of him.

Or to think of it another way...consider a perfect mirror. It reflects whatever stands in front of it perfectly. A perfect image.

Now smudge it with your thumb. The image is marred. No matter where you stand that smudge sticks out like a sore...well...thumb. It is a corrupted image. No longer perfect. Not as bad as if you had, say, spray painted the mirror black. But not perfect either.

Man in his fallen state is part corrupt, and part corruptible.

The corruptible soul is always being corrupted by the corrupt flesh we inherited from Adam.

The flesh is corrupt. The soul in its weakness is corruptible by the flesh.
But, remove the flesh? Does that same soul remain corruptible?

But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. For I know ​

that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present ​

with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find. For the good that I will ​

to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice." Rom 7:17-19​

Outside of God's enabling grace? Our soul is a helpless slave to the sin nature.

During the time of God's drawing of all men = God's grace constrains the slave master over the soul.
The Holy Spirit suppresses the flesh and isolates that bully from dominating over the soul during the
times God seeks a choice from that soul.

That is not saying that the soul is inherently good.
While placed under God's grace control the soul is made free to choose.
To choose between the world of good and evil, or for God's nature.

Remember.. Satan did not fall from a state of imperfection.

Satan literally chose freely for what was to become later known as "evil."
Grace places man into a similar position of Satan's choice when man chooses between God and the same type of things that Satan preferred.
That is why a man who rejects God shares the same judgment as Satan and the fallen angels.

grace and peace .......................

 

[GeneZ]

Some here only want to divert away from the subject quickly before any resolve could be possible.

I suggest you take your flesh elsewhere, please.

 

[CrazyCalvinistUncle]

Man in his fallen state is part corrupt, and part corruptible.

Oh? So...part good? Neutral? This is news too me. Do tell.

 

[CrazyCalvinistUncle]

Some here only want to divert away from the subject quickly before any resolve could be possible.

I suggest you take your flesh elsewhere, please.

*Blink*

Are you speaking too me? I offered a wholly reformed position on the "corruption" of man ( I can dig up the articles if you like ).

 

[Alive]

Its interesting to read what Arminius his own self had to say:

Arminius Disputation 11; Sections 7 and 8

VII. In this state, the free will of man towards the true good is not only wounded, maimed, infirm, bent, and weakened; but it is also imprisoned, destroyed, and lost. And its powers are not only debilitated and useless unless they be assisted by grace, but it has no powers whatever except such as are excited by Divine grace. For Christ has said, "Without me ye can do nothing." St. Augustine, after having diligently meditated upon each word in this passage, speaks thus: "Christ does not say, without me ye can do but Little; neither does He say, without me ye can do any Arduous Thing, nor without me ye can do it with difficulty. But he says, without me ye can do Nothing! Nor does he say, without me ye cannot complete any thing; but without me ye can do Nothing." That this may be made more manifestly to appear, we will separately consider the mind, the affections or will, and the capability, as contra-distinguished from them, as well as the life itself of an unregenerate man.

VIII. The mind of man, in this state, is dark, destitute of the saving knowledge of God, and, according to the Apostle, incapable of those things which belong to the Spirit of God. For "the animal man has no perception of the things of the Spirit of God;" (1 Cor. ii. 14 in which passage man is called "animal," not from the animal body, but from anima, the soul itself, which is the most noble part of man, but which is so encompassed about with the clouds of ignorance, as to be distinguished by the epithets of "vain" and "foolish;" and men themselves, thus darkened in their minds, are denominated "mad" or foolish, "fools," and even "darkness" itself. (Rom. i. 21, 22; Ephes. iv. 17, 18; Tit. iii. 3; Ephes. v. 8.) This is true, not only when, from the truth of the law which has in some measure been inscribed on the mind, it is preparing to form conclusions by the understanding; but likewise when, by simple apprehension, it would receive the truth of the gospel externally offered to it. For the human mind judges that to be "foolishness" which is the most excellent "wisdom" of God. (1 Cor. i. 18, 24.) On this account, what is here said must be understood not only of practical understanding and the judgment of particular approbation, but also of theoretical understanding and the judgment of general estimation.

 

[Eleanor]

Man since the fall of Adam has been depraved. Meaning...
Man took on a fallen nature that dominates over his thinking.
He can not believe unless God supplies grace to overcome his sinful flesh that will be dominating over the soul.
Without grace man is totally helpless to resist his sin nature in relation to God's Spirit.
So, that being so. Without God's enabling power of grace man's soul will always reject God.
Its the flesh's dominance over the soul prevents man's soul from accepting God.

But, to say man is totally depraved?
Leaves God with nothing to save.

When God saves a soul he has crucified that man's flesh in Christ.

Again, to say man is totally depraved? Leaves God with nothing to save.

Total depravity would have to mean that the flesh and soul are each hopelessly depraved.

But, there is a total depravity!

Man will become totally depraved when he insists upon rejecting God during times that grace was being implemented to paralyze the effects of the flesh over the soul. Paralyzing the sin nature is by grace makes that soul momentarily truly free to either choose for, or against God, while God was drawing him by grace.

If that soul during God's drawing was not being controlled by the flesh because grace was holding its effect over the soul down? Its then that the soul chooses to be depraved. Just like Satan and his angels chose from their perfection to reject the Lord did, to claim themselves God over their own lives.

Now.. with total depravity being established? That soul is sent to the Lake of Fire. There was nothing to save = Total depravity.

grace and peace ......................

God is powerless to create anew, as in the new creation?

 

[Sparrow]

Hmmm… This is a thought-provoking topic.

When God created us in His own image, He called His creation good. He was pleased. So how did we get from “good” to “totally depraved“? Of course, we are all familiar with the account of Eve’s, then Adam’s, deception in the Garden. It’s man’s God-given ability to think and choose for himself that gets us all into trouble. James tells us exactly how it happens:

“Let no one say when he is tempted, ‘I am tempted by God’, for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone. But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed. Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death” (James 1:14, 15).

God draws us to Himself; Satan draws us away from our Creator. God tells us both the truth and the consequences; Satan only lies and deceives. We are in a hopeless situation being tugged back and forth between the two. That hopeless situation is called total depravity—a murky pit where few truly want to be, for there is no Light there. Total depravity is a state of being, not the person himself.

Unlike His nemesis, however, God is faithful. His grace and mercy provide both rescue and rest In Christ; and in Him, we can escape the pit and live a life worthy of the calling we have received from our Father. We have help from the Holy Spirit to do so. Since we are urged to live worthy (Ephesians 4:1), we must be worth saving in God’s eyes. Total depravity does not equal worthless; total depravity = needful of salvation.

 

[GeneZ]

Oh? So...part good? Neutral? This is news too me. Do tell.

Without grace being applied the soul is corrupted by default. That's because the depraved flesh is sovereign over the soul until grace contains its dominance over the soul.

Without grace being given the person by sight behaves as being totally depraved because the soul is helpless to take control over the flesh.
Its just like if someone gave you too much to drink and you got drunk. You would be the same soul as you are now, but your drunk flesh would make it hazardous to try to drive. The sin nature acts like we drank too much in regards to the soul being able to do what is right and sober.

But, if made sober? Is that soul still a hazard to itself? No.

God's grace instantly sobers up the soul, so the soul can do as it chooses in regards to believing.

The unbeliever never reaches the stage of being able to choose for Christ.

For the unbeliever's soul while it was given grace during God's drawing him freely rejected the drawing of God before reaching the finish line of being offered Jesus Christ. the Cross of Christ.

That is why it says that the unbeliever is already condemned.

Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe ​

stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of ​

God’s one and only Son." John 3:18​

The proof that the unbeliever rejected the drawing of God before the Gospel was given is that he will not believe in Jesus.
He is not condemned for not believing in Jesus. For it says he was condemned already prior to being presented the Gospel!
The condemnation he received came from the Father while his soul kept rejecting the drawing of God. Drawing him while grace
was being given. Having been given the grace to be drawn by God leaves that soul to be without excuse~

For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, teaching us ​

that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and ​

godly in the present age." Titus 2:11-12​

If grace that brings salvation was not offered prior to being presented the Gospel? That soul that rejected would be with excuse.

Why?
For, without grace that soul would have had no chance of ever believing! Having a chance given leaves them having no excuse!

He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours ​

but also for the sins of the whole world." 1 John 2:2​

That is why the Lord died for even the sins of those who will ultimately reject Him. For all were to be treated the same in regards to God
drawing them to salvation. A drawing that unbelievers will reject before the Father can bring them over the Finish Line to hand them to Christ.

grace and peace ............................

 

[GeneZ]

God is powerless to create anew, as in the new creation?

The New creation IN CHRIST takes place when the Holy Spirit enters the regenerated person's body to indwell. That arrangement now gives that believer an option to have the Spirit CONTROL over their flesh and to work through the spirit and soul.


OT saints had no such function in their spiritual lives. They could only know the things of God.

​

Whoever believes in me, as Scripture has said, rivers of living water will flow from within them.” ​

By this he meant the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were later to receive. ​

Up to that time the Spirit had not been given, since Jesus had not yet been glorified." John 7:38-39​

We being a new creation in Christ are now expected by God to walk in the filling of the Spirit to become Truth being made manifest in us.
Manifested, representing Christ in this fallen world.

Just as The Lord became the Word made flesh? We in a more limited way, are to become transformed more and more over time into manifesting the image of Christ. Carnal Christians will fail to achieve such a transformation. They will become rigid and dogmatic clinging to their pet doctrines that suits their natural way of seeing things just fine.

Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. ​

And we all, who with unveiled faces contemplate the Lord’s glory, are being ​

transformed into his image with ever-increasing glory, which comes from ​

the Lord, who is the Spirit." 2 Cor 3:17-18​

That passage is about being the New Creation in Christ functioning in the way that pleases the Lord!


grace and peace ..........................

 

[Eleanor]

The New creation IN CHRIST takes place when the Holy Spirit enters the regenerated person's body to indwell.

The new creation takes place at re-generation.

 

[GeneZ]

The new creation takes place at re-generation.

Yes...

OT saints were also born again.
But, when they became born again they did not have the Holy Spirit take up permanent residence in their body.
Its God making our body the Temple of the Holy Spirit that qualifies us for being a new creation.
When OT regenerated believers were alive the Temple was where the Spirit of God dwelled.

 

[Eleanor]

Yes...

OT saints were also born again. a
But, when they became born again they did not have the Holy Spirit take up permanent residence in their body.
Its God making our body the Temple of the Holy Spirit that qualifies us for being a new creation.
When OT regenerated believers were alive the Temple was where the Spirit of God dwelled.

It is being in Christ that makes a new creation, united with him in his death and rising to a new life that makes us a new creation.

 

[civic]

It is being in Christ that makes a new creation, united with him in his death and rising to a new life that makes us a new creation.

Which could not happen prior to Pentecost

 

[Eleanor]

Which could not happen prior to Pentecost

The gospel was not preached before Pentecost.

Christ's close circle could have been a new creation at his resurrection.

Pentecost was not the new birth, but a special empowering of the apsotles by the Holy Spirit to take the gospel to mankind.

The apostles already had the Holy Spirit (Jn 20:22-23).