Total Depravity. Was it a misnomer?

[civic]

The gospel was not preached before Pentecost.

Christ's close circle could have been a new creation at his resurrection.

Pentecost was not the new birth, but a special empowering of the apsotles by the Holy Spirit to take the gospel to mankind.

The apostles already had the Holy Spirit (Jn 20:22-23).

Not true as I will prove with scripture.

Joel 2:28-32- The future promise of the Holy Spirit in them.

The Day of the Lord

28 “And afterward,
I will pour out my Spirit on all people.
Your sons and daughters will prophesy,
your old men will dream dreams,
your young men will see visions.
29 Even on my servants, both men and women,
I will pour out my Spirit in those days.
30 I will show wonders in the heavens
and on the earth,
blood and fire and billows of smoke.
31 The sun will be turned to darkness
and the moon to blood
before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord.
32 And everyone who calls
on the name of the Lord will be saved;
for on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem
there will be deliverance,
as the Lord has said,
even among the survivors
whom the Lord calls.

The prophecy in Joel 2 was fulfilled in Acts 2 when the Holy Spirit came to indwell believers. Christ in you the hope of Glory which was a mystery hidden from the OT and revealed in the N.T. Colossians 1:26-27- the mystery that has been kept hidden for ages and generations, but is now disclosed to the Lord’s people. 27 To them God has chosen to make known among the Gentiles the glorious riches of this mystery, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory. Christ in you see Philippians 1:21, and also Galatians 2:20; see Romans 8:10; 2Corinthians 13:5; Galatians 4:19

Acts 2

When the day of Pentecost came, they were all together in one place. 2 Suddenly a sound like the blowing of a violent wind came from heaven and filled the whole house where they were sitting. 3 They saw what seemed to be tongues of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them. 4 All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit enabled them.

Then Peter stood up with the Eleven, raised his voice and addressed the crowd: “Fellow Jews and all of you who live in Jerusalem, let me explain this to you; listen carefully to what I say. 15 These people are not drunk, as you suppose. It’s only nine in the morning! 16 No, this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel:

17 “‘In the last days, God says,
I will pour out my Spirit on all people.
Your sons and daughters will prophesy,
your young men will see visions,
your old men will dream dreams.
18 Even on my servants, both men and women,
I will pour out my Spirit in those days,
and they will prophesy.
19 I will show wonders in the heavens above
and signs on the earth below,
blood and fire and billows of smoke.
20 The sun will be turned to darkness
and the moon to blood
before the coming of the great and glorious day of the Lord.
21 And everyone who calls
on the name of the Lord will be saved.’

22 “Fellow Israelites, listen to this: Jesus of Nazareth was a man accredited by God to you by miracles, wonders and signs, which God did among you through him, as you yourselves know. 23 This man was handed over to you by God’s deliberate plan and foreknowledge; and you, with the help of wicked men, put him to death by nailing him to the cross. 24 But God raised him from the dead, freeing him from the agony of death, because it was impossible for death to keep its hold on him.

Jesus teaching on Pentecost. The Holy Spirit in them was future.

Acts 1

After his suffering, he presented himself to them and gave many convincing proofs that he was alive. He appeared to them over a period of forty days and spoke about the kingdom of God. 4 On one occasion, while he was eating with them, he gave them this command: “Do not leave Jerusalem, but wait for the gift my Father promised, which you have heard me speak about. 5 For John baptized with[a] water, but in a few days you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.”

6 Then they gathered around him and asked him, “Lord, are you at this time going to restore the kingdom to Israel?”

7 He said to them: “It is not for you to know the times or dates the Father has set by his own authority. 8 But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.”

John 14- still future

the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you. 18 I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. 19 Before long, the world will not see me anymore, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live. 20 On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you.

“All this I have spoken while still with you. 26 But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.

John 15:26 still future- “When the Advocate comes, whom I will send to you from the Father—the Spirit of truth who goes out from the Father—he will testify about me.

John 16- still future

“I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. 13 But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. 14 He will glorify me because it is from me that he will receive what he will make known to you. 15 All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will receive from me what he will make known to you.”

John 17:26 still future-I have revealed you to them, and I will continue to do so. Then your love for me will be in them, and I will be in them.”

 

[CrazyCalvinistUncle]

Without grace being applied the soul is corrupted by default. That's because the depraved flesh is sovereign over the soul until grace contains its dominance over the soul.

Huh...sounds an awful lot like "material world bad, spirit good". Where have we heard that before?

Can't quite put my finger on it.

 

[ReverendRV]

Man since the fall of Adam has been depraved. Meaning...
Man took on a fallen nature that dominates over his thinking.

He can not believe unless God supplies grace to overcome his sinful flesh that will be dominating over the soul.

Without grace man is totally helpless to resist his sin nature in relation to God's Spirit.
So, that being so. Without God's enabling power of grace man's soul will always reject God.

Its the flesh's dominance over the soul prevents man's soul from accepting God.

But, to say man is totally depraved?
Leaves God with nothing to save.

When God saves a soul he has crucified that man's flesh in Christ.

Again, to say man is totally depraved? Leaves God with nothing to save.

Total depravity would have to mean that the flesh and soul are each hopelessly depraved.

But, there is a total depravity!

Man will become totally depraved when he insists upon rejecting God during times that grace was being implemented to paralyze the effects of the flesh over the soul. Paralyzing the sin nature is by grace makes that soul momentarily truly free to either choose for, or against God, while God was drawing him by grace.

If that soul during God's drawing was not being controlled by the flesh because grace was holding its effect over the soul down? Its then that the soul chooses to be depraved. Just like Satan and his angels chose from their perfection to reject the Lord did, to claim themselves God over their own lives.

Now.. with total depravity being established? That soul is sent to the Lake of Fire. There was nothing to save = Total depravity.

grace and peace ......................

I would say that Total Depravity is as true a result of Original Sin, as Pain in Childbirth is a result of Original Sin. And those who experience Total Depravity ARE left with something to Save, just as those who experience Pain in Childbirth are left with something to Save...

Total Depravity is the Unconditional Effect of Original Sin, just as Pain in Childbirth is the Unconditional Effect of Original Sin...

Therefore, every Christian believes in Unconditional Effects...

 

[Eleanor]

Not true as I will prove with scripture.
Joel 2:28-32- The future promise of the Holy Spirit in them.
The Day of the Lord
28 “And afterward,
I will pour out my Spirit on all people.
Your sons and daughters will prophesy,
your old men will dream dreams,
your young men will see visions.
29 Even on my servants, both men and women,
I will pour out my Spirit in those days.
30 I will show wonders in the heavens
and on the earth,
blood and fire and billows of smoke.
31 The sun will be turned to darkness
and the moon to blood
before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord.
32 And everyone who calls
on the name of the Lord will be saved;
for on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem
there will be deliverance,
as the Lord has said,
even among the survivors
whom the Lord calls.

The prophecy in Joel 2 was fulfilled in Acts 2 when the Holy Spirit came to indwell believers.

But was Pentecost the new birth for the apostles when they had already received the Holy Spirit (Jn 20:22-23)?
Or was that pouring out a special empowerment of the apostles (who were the recipients of tongues) to take the gospel to mankind,
as well as an enabling of 3,000 who heard the gospel to that day to believe, all of which is well in keeping with Joel?

Christ in you the hope of Glory which was a mystery hidden from the OT and revealed in the N.T. Colossians 1:26-27- the mystery that has been kept hidden for ages and generations, but is now disclosed to the Lord’s people. 27 To them God has chosen to make known among the Gentiles the glorious riches of this mystery, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory. Christ in you see Philippians 1:21, and also Galatians 2:20; see Romans 8:10; 2Corinthians 13:5; Galatians 4:19

Acts 2

When the day of Pentecost came, they were all together in one place. 2 Suddenly a sound like the blowing of a violent wind came from heaven and filled the whole house where they were sitting. 3 They saw what seemed to be tongues of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them. 4 All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit enabled them.

Then Peter stood up with the Eleven, raised his voice and addressed the crowd: “Fellow Jews and all of you who live in Jerusalem, let me explain this to you; listen carefully to what I say. 15 These people are not drunk, as you suppose. It’s only nine in the morning! 16 No, this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel:

17 “‘In the last days, God says,
I will pour out my Spirit on all people.
Your sons and daughters will prophesy,
your young men will see visions,
your old men will dream dreams.
18 Even on my servants, both men and women,
I will pour out my Spirit in those days,
and they will prophesy.
19 I will show wonders in the heavens above
and signs on the earth below,
blood and fire and billows of smoke.
20 The sun will be turned to darkness
and the moon to blood
before the coming of the great and glorious day of the Lord.
21 And everyone who calls
on the name of the Lord will be saved.’

22 “Fellow Israelites, listen to this: Jesus of Nazareth was a man accredited by God to you by miracles, wonders and signs, which God did among you through him, as you yourselves know. 23 This man was handed over to you by God’s deliberate plan and foreknowledge; and you, with the help of wicked men, put him to death by nailing him to the cross. 24 But God raised him from the dead, freeing him from the agony of death, because it was impossible for death to keep its hold on him.

Jesus teaching on Pentecost. The Holy Spirit in them was future.

Acts 1

After his suffering, he presented himself to them and gave many convincing proofs that he was alive. He appeared to them over a period of forty days and spoke about the kingdom of God. 4 On one occasion, while he was eating with them, he gave them this command: “Do not leave Jerusalem, but wait for the gift my Father promised, which you have heard me speak about. 5 For John baptized with[a] water, but in a few days you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.”

6 Then they gathered around him and asked him, “Lord, are you at this time going to restore the kingdom to Israel?”

7 He said to them: “It is not for you to know the times or dates the Father has set by his own authority. 8 But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.”

John 14- still future

the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you. 18 I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. 19 Before long, the world will not see me anymore, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live. 20 On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you.

“All this I have spoken while still with you. 26 But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.

John 15:26 still future- “When the Advocate comes, whom I will send to you from the Father—the Spirit of truth who goes out from the Father—he will testify about me.

John 16- still future

“I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. 13 But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. 14 He will glorify me because it is from me that he will receive what he will make known to you. 15 All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will receive from me what he will make known to you.”

John 17:26 still future-I have revealed you to them, and I will continue to do so. Then your love for me will be in them, and I will be in them.”

 

[Eleanor]

Which could not happen prior to Pentecost

Had he not died and risen before Pentecost?

 

[GeneZ]

It is being in Christ that makes a new creation, united with him in his death and rising to a new life that makes us a new creation.

As long as you say words without defining them you will not gain understanding.
It will be like Catholics repeating Catechism by rote.

Here's an example...

As Eve was in Adam's side? We are now hidden in Christ's side!
For? We are the Bride of Christ.
We shall be bone of His bones and flesh of His glorious body!


But our citizenship is in heaven. And we eagerly await a Savior from there,
the Lord Jesus Christ, who, by the power that enables him to bring everything
under his control, will transform our lowly bodies so that they will be like his glorious body." Philippians 3:20-21


Our old self has been crucified with Christ. God counts our old self as dead.

I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me.
The life I now live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved
me and gave himself for me." Galatians 2:20

Our new self is hidden in Him awaiting the resurrection to be fully manifested and revealed to God's glory.

You know how frustrating that is to the Devil?

grace and peace ..................

 

[GeneZ]

Had he not died and risen before Pentecost?

Not sure what your point was in that.... But, for better clarification may I suggest?

But, not simply risen for Pentecost to take place.
He needed to first ascend back to heaven to be GLORIFIED.

The resurrected Jesus was not yet glorified. To be glorified?
He first needed to return to Heaven to be seated at the right hand of the Father.

Whoever believes in me, as Scripture has said, rivers of living water will flow from within them.”
By this he meant the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were later to receive. Up to
that time the Spirit had not been given, since Jesus had not yet been glorified." John 7:38-39

Pentecost could only take place only after Jesus had been glorified, not simply risen.

grace and peace ...............

 

[GeneZ]

I would say that Total Depravity is as true a result of Original Sin....

But, what was that result producing?

For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) dwells no good thing; for I have the desire,
but I am not able to perform that which is good.." Rom 7:18

We know that in our flesh no good thing dwells. But, our flesh is not our soul.

Abraham when he was on earth could not experience being co-crucified with Christ. It was Abraham's soul that pleased God.

Likewise with David. That is why in the OT God tolerated certain sins with believers before the Cross, and believers becoming
a new creation in Christ would take place on earth....

Its why David could have many wives... Today it would not be tolerated because God's grace given to us leaves us to
be without excuse. Being a new creation in Christ is God's enabling power supplied to us to become transformed into
what He desires of us to become.

Our salvation in the church age includes a special additional grace that OT believers did not receieve.

Concerning this salvation, the prophets, who spoke of the grace that was to come to you, ​

searched intently and with the greatest care, trying to find out the time and circumstances to ​

which the Spirit of Christ in them was pointing when he predicted the sufferings of the Messiah ​

and the glories that would follow." 1 Peter 1:10-11​

grace and peace ..............

 

[ReverendRV]

But, what was that result producing? <snip>

Original Sin produces Total Depravity; and Total Depravity is the leavening of the whole lump of our Being with Sin, resulting in our always Falling Short of the Glory of God...

Total Depravity is no different than Women having pain in childbirth; it's an Unconditional Consequence of the Fall of Adam. There is no Condition we must meet, to aquire an Unconditional Consequence...

 

[David1701]

Man since the fall of Adam has been depraved. Meaning...
Man took on a fallen nature that dominates over his thinking.

He can not believe unless God supplies grace to overcome his sinful flesh that will be dominating over the soul.

Without grace man is totally helpless to resist his sin nature in relation to God's Spirit.
So, that being so. Without God's enabling power of grace man's soul will always reject God.

Its the flesh's dominance over the soul prevents man's soul from accepting God.

But, to say man is totally depraved?
Leaves God with nothing to save.

When God saves a soul he has crucified that man's flesh in Christ.

Again, to say man is totally depraved? Leaves God with nothing to save.

Total depravity would have to mean that the flesh and soul are each hopelessly depraved.

But, there is a total depravity!

Man will become totally depraved when he insists upon rejecting God during times that grace was being implemented to paralyze the effects of the flesh over the soul. Paralyzing the sin nature is by grace makes that soul momentarily truly free to either choose for, or against God, while God was drawing him by grace.

If that soul during God's drawing was not being controlled by the flesh because grace was holding its effect over the soul down? Its then that the soul chooses to be depraved. Just like Satan and his angels chose from their perfection to reject the Lord did, to claim themselves God over their own lives.

Now.. with total depravity being established? That soul is sent to the Lake of Fire. There was nothing to save = Total depravity.

grace and peace ......................

Total Depravity does not mean that man is as depraved as he could be; it simply means that every aspect of him is depraved. The Bible is very clear that this is the condition of unregenerate man.

Rom. 3:9-19 (KJV)
9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;
10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:
14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:
15 Their feet are swift to shed blood:
16 Destruction and misery are in their ways:
17 And the way of peace have they not known:
18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.
19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

This is why we MUST be born again, in order see and enter the kingdom of God, through faith in Jesus Christ.

John 3:1-7 (KJV)
1 There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:
2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.
3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he can not see the kingdom of God.
4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother’s womb, and be born?
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he can not enter into the kingdom of God.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

 

[GeneZ]

Original Sin produces Total Depravity; and Total Depravity is the leavening of the whole lump of our Being with Sin, resulting in our always Falling Short of the Glory of God...

Total Depravity is no different than Women having pain in childbirth; it's an Unconditional Consequence of the Fall of Adam. There is no Condition we must meet, to aquire an Unconditional Consequence...

I am more interested in finding out how the sin nature works against the soul.. rather than give a generalized description of its fruit.

When some auto insurance company says a car was totaled? It still leaves several parts of the car in perfect condition.
So? Total depravity leaves certain aspects of the person able to be saved.

Salvation = Salvage.

grace and peace ..................

 

[civic]

I am more interested in finding out how the sin nature works against the soul.. rather than give a generalized description of its fruit.

When some auto insurance company says a car was totaled? It still leaves several parts of the car in perfect condition.
So? Total depravity leaves certain aspects of the person able to be saved.

Salvation = Salvage.

grace and peace ..................

Salvation equals salvage ?

Maybe you can expound. Salvation takes the broken snd completely restores it from its previous state. That’s the opposite is salvaged like a salvaged title on a car.

Salvation
NT:4990

NT:4990 ‎/‎soter (so-tare'); from NT:4982; a deliverer, i.e. God or Christ:

KJV - saviour.
NT:4991 / ‎soteria (so-tay-ree'-ah); feminine of a derivative of NT:4990 as (properly, abstract) noun; rescue or safety (physically or morally):

KJV - deliver, health, salvation, save, saving.

NT:4982

NT:4982 ‎ ‎sozo (sode'-zo); from a primary sos (contraction for obsolete saoz, "safe"); to save, i.e. deliver or protect (literally or figuratively):

KJV - heal, preserve, save (self), do well, be (make) whole.



Luke 19:5-10

5 And when Jesus came to the place, he looked up, and saw him, and said unto him, Zacchaeus, make haste, and come down; for to day I must abide at thy house.

6 And he made haste, and came down, and received him joyfully.

7 And when they saw it, they all murmured, saying, That he was gone to be guest with a man that is a sinner.

8 And Zacchaeus stood, and said unto the Lord; Behold, Lord, the half of my goods I give to the poor; and if I have taken any thing from any man by false accusation, I restore him fourfold.

9 And Jesus said unto him, This day is salvation come to this house, for so much as he also is a son of Abraham.

10 For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.

To save- it means to deliver out of danger

Salvation- refers to the activity which produces the state of safety

Savior- is reserved for the one who saves.

We sometimes talk about saving things but Jesus only used the word in with man whom He saved.
Luke 19:9- This is the only time Jesus used the word salvation and that was with Zacchaeus. Christ’s purpose was one of seeking and saving the lost. Zacchaeus was a rich tax collector who was looked down upon for his livelihood. He was despised by those around him. When Jesus approached him and Zacchaeus looked up at Him , Jesus asked him to use his house and Zacchaeus gladly came down and received Him. When they went into the house the multitude murmured and within a short visit Zacchaeus was repentant of his ill gains which was evidence of his new found faith in the Savior. Salvation is the power that takes hold of a person and remakes him.
Here are some verses that Jesus used the word save.

Luke 6:9- Jesus restored the withered hand

Luke 8:48- Jesus healed the woman with the issue of blood

Luke 8:50- Jesus raised Jairus daughter from the dead

Luke 17:19- Jesus cleansed the lepers

Luke 18:42- Jesus healed the blind

So as we can see to save means to completely remove or destroy those destructive forces. To restore all that had been lost. Salvation in the teaching of Jesus is the complete change from one condition to its opposite. Jesus confronted man with the reality of sin. The religious people of his day hated Him without a cause because they loved their sin. Jesus taught us to “repent toward God”(Matt 4:17) To believe in Me (John 6:28,29) and “test Me”, will to do My will. ( John 7:17)

 

[Eleanor]

As long as you say words without defining them you will not gain understanding.

I thought Ro 6:4-6 was quite aprapos.

 

[GeneZ]

Salvation equals salvage ?

Maybe you can expound. Salvation takes the broken snd completely restores it from its previous state. That’s the opposite is salvaged like a salvaged title on a car.

Salvation
NT:4990

NT:4990 ‎/‎soter (so-tare'); from NT:4982; a deliverer, i.e. God or Christ:

KJV - saviour.
NT:4991 / ‎soteria (so-tay-ree'-ah); feminine of a derivative of NT:4990 as (properly, abstract) noun; rescue or safety (physically or morally):

KJV - deliver, health, salvation, save, saving.

NT:4982

NT:4982 ‎ ‎sozo (sode'-zo); from a primary sos (contraction for obsolete saoz, "safe"); to save, i.e. deliver or protect (literally or figuratively):

KJV - heal, preserve, save (self), do well, be (make) whole.



Luke 19:5-10

5 And when Jesus came to the place, he looked up, and saw him, and said unto him, Zacchaeus, make haste, and come down; for to day I must abide at thy house.

6 And he made haste, and came down, and received him joyfully.

7 And when they saw it, they all murmured, saying, That he was gone to be guest with a man that is a sinner.

8 And Zacchaeus stood, and said unto the Lord; Behold, Lord, the half of my goods I give to the poor; and if I have taken any thing from any man by false accusation, I restore him fourfold.

9 And Jesus said unto him, This day is salvation come to this house, for so much as he also is a son of Abraham.

10 For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.

To save- it means to deliver out of danger

Salvation- refers to the activity which produces the state of safety

Savior- is reserved for the one who saves.

We sometimes talk about saving things but Jesus only used the word in with man whom He saved.
Luke 19:9- This is the only time Jesus used the word salvation and that was with Zacchaeus. Christ’s purpose was one of seeking and saving the lost. Zacchaeus was a rich tax collector who was looked down upon for his livelihood. He was despised by those around him. When Jesus approached him and Zacchaeus looked up at Him , Jesus asked him to use his house and Zacchaeus gladly came down and received Him. When they went into the house the multitude murmured and within a short visit Zacchaeus was repentant of his ill gains which was evidence of his new found faith in the Savior. Salvation is the power that takes hold of a person and remakes him.
Here are some verses that Jesus used the word save.

Luke 6:9- Jesus restored the withered hand

Luke 8:48- Jesus healed the woman with the issue of blood

Luke 8:50- Jesus raised Jairus daughter from the dead

Luke 17:19- Jesus cleansed the lepers

Luke 18:42- Jesus healed the blind

So as we can see to save means to completely remove or destroy those destructive forces. To restore all that had been lost. Salvation in the teaching of Jesus is the complete change from one condition to its opposite. Jesus confronted man with the reality of sin. The religious people of his day hated Him without a cause because they loved their sin. Jesus taught us to “repent toward God”(Matt 4:17) To believe in Me (John 6:28,29) and “test Me”, will to do My will. ( John 7:17)

In essence?

God takes the engine (soul) and gets rid of the wrecked body!
http://www.salvagehunterauto.com/

Our soul was salvaged by God from the junk yard of mankind.


grace and peace ...............

 

[civic]

In essence?

God takes the engine (soul) and gets rid of the wrecked body!
http://www.salvagehunterauto.com/

Ok thanks for clarifying

 

[civic]

So you don't have a physical body?

That would be a major red flag

 

[GeneZ]

So you don't have a physical body?

Right now its the Holy Spirit that forces our "crucified" bodies to function adequately for this life.
Grace patches us together with truth to make us functional in the devil's world.
Grace patches us together by walking in truth.
We need to keep learning God's Word as to walk from faith to faith.

But, as we function in grace now? Is NOTHING like it will be with the body to be received in the Resurrection!

Then we will be able to BE TRANSPORTED by God's power from heaven to earth in a twinkling of an eye!

grace and peace ......................

 

[ReverendRV]

I am more interested in finding out how the sin nature works against the soul.. <snip>

The Sin Nature is due to the Curse of Inherited Guilt and Native Depravity; because of the Original Sin of Adam, as the Federal Head of Mankind. Total Depravity works against the Soul by causing people to desire everything but the God of the Bible...

 

[Eleanor]

The Sin Nature is due to the Curse of Inherited Guilt and Native Depravity; because of the Original Sin of Adam, as the Federal Head of Mankind. Total DepravityQues works against the Soul by causing people to desire everything but the God of the Bible...

Question:

If Adam's sin is imputed to us (Ro 5:12-19) and we are, therefore, born guilty and condemned (Ro 5:18),
if we inherit his fallen nature (Eph 2:3),
if we have a second Adam in Christ (1 Co 5:45), thereby corresponding Christ to Adam,

why do we need the "Federal Head of Mankind" notion?

Isn't first and second Adam enough?

Anybody?

 

[GeneZ]

The Sin Nature is due to the Curse of Inherited Guilt and Native Depravity; because of the Original Sin of Adam, as the Federal Head of Mankind. Total Depravity works against the Soul by causing people to desire everything but the God of the Bible...

The sin nature is a genetic, biological, defect. A defect that was passed down seminally by Adam to all of us.
Its through the man's seed that the sin nature is passed down.



On the other hand.. As per Genesis 3:15 -
The woman's ovum does not pass down the sin nature.

And I will put enmity
Between you and the woman,
And between your seed and her Seed;
He shall bruise your head,
And you shall bruise His heel.”


That is why Jesus could be born sinless by means of Mary's ovum. Which was fertilized by the Holy Spirit, who produced perfect genetic material to avoid the sin nature we inherited from Adam.