Total Depravity. Was it a misnomer?

[sawdust]

Really, where? Because I kept asking him to clarify it.

I can see the answer. It can be summed up in one word ... grace!

Like I said, it was there in the Opening Post.

 

[brightfame52]

Again...

That is incorrect. Men are by nature dead in sin, and I have provided plenty of scriptural examples to prove it incorrect. The idea "dead to God" is an addition to scripture. The sinner is dead in sin, but God remains sovereign over all, including all sin and all sinners, and God demonstrates His constant involvement with those dead in sin from the beginning of scripture until its end. Post-disobedient Adam was not dead to God. God clothed him and sent him out to believe and obey. Cain was dealt with directly by God in admonition and exhortation. God marked him. He was not dead to God. Seth was appointed by God as an offspring to replace Abel, and men began to worship God with the birth of his son, Enosh. I can go through the Bible chapter by chapter and list scores of additional examples all the way up to the second resurrection and second death.

Men are not by nature dead to God.


It was while we still sinners that Christ died for us!!! God made him who knew no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

Sin prevents humanity from coming to God in their own might for salvation. Sin, not being dead to God.


Would you like to go around again ad nauseam or maybe add something new to the conversation?

Yes, men by nature are dead to God !

 

[brightfame52]

Moving the goal post. We're discussing "dead to God," being synonymous with, causal to, or evidence of total depravity.

Man's heart by nature being totally depraved does not mean humans are dead to God.

And it was while we were still sinners that Christ died for us. He died so that we would not. Sinners are not dead to God.


What do you mean by "dead to God"? Can you provide me with a verse that says the sinner is dead to God?

Luke 20:38
Now He is not the God of the dead, but of the living; for all live to Him.

Psalm 139:8
If I ascend to heaven, You are there; If I make my bed in Sheol, behold, You are there.

There is no place in all of creation where God is not. Not even the sinfully dead who are dead in the grave are dead to God.

Again, mans heart by nature is incurably wicked Jer 17:9 and therein lies his total depravity. Look at Gen 6:5

5 And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

Even men in their sincere religious efforts, it was wickedness and evil in Gods sight

 

[Ladodgers6]

I can see the answer. It can be summed up in one word ... grace!

Like I said, it was there in the Opening Post.

He does not provide a defined explanation of Grace. Can you? Second, please explain what this means?

But, to say man is totally depraved?
Leaves God with nothing to save.

 

[brightfame52]

But you didn't seem to comprehend he said this as well:

He is the Savior of even those who will reject his "offer." Its available to all.

You are confusing what Christ did (saved the world) and how that salvation is to be applied. Every sin of every man has been wiped off the board and nailed to the tree. The sin barrier is gone for everyone. Salvation is in Christ alone. You want to know that salvation? Then you will need to be as God said and be believing.

I have no idea what you talking about. You do understand that man by nature is totally depraved, dead to God, dead in sin ?

 

[Eleanor]

Got scripture for that?

I've got reality for that, just as I have what goes up comes down for the reality of gravity.
Parents loving children, caring for the elderly, etc., etc., etc. is the reality of morality.

 

[sawdust]

He does not provide a defined explanation of Grace. Can you? Second, please explain what this means?

But, to say man is totally depraved?
Leaves God with nothing to save.

You didn't ask for a definition of grace. But if you want one, essentially it is God's power to effect His will.

The sin nature is in the flesh. The flesh is anti-God. The soul is created neutral, neither good nor bad, right nor wrong. If the soul was created depraved it would mean one, god is guilty of creating sin (which He is not) and two, the soul would never be free of it's anti-God stance just like the flesh. Salvation would require more than freeing the soul from the grasp of the flesh and a transformation of the soul, it would require creating a whole new soul ergo, you would no longer be you. If you no longer exist, what's to save?

 

[sawdust]

I have no idea what you talking about. You do understand that man by nature is totally depraved, dead to God, dead in sin ?

The nature of man has no effect on the efficacy of Christ's work on the Cross. Christ died for our sin. He accomplished that. Now, no sin stands in the way. If people don't come to God that is on them, not the alleged failure of Christ.

 

[brightfame52]

The nature of man has no effect on the efficacy of Christ's work on the Cross. Christ died for our sin. He accomplished that. Now, no sin stands in the way. If people don't come to God that is on them, not the alleged failure of Christ.

You contradict yourself, mans failure to come to God is sin, so you obviously deny the efficacy of Christs death to change that.

See Christs death brings men to God, converts them 1 Pet 3:18

18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

So you calling Christs death a failure. But this thread is about mans total depravity, thats why men dont come to God,

Naturally we dont seek or desire God Rom 3:11

11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

So you believe the sin of not coming to God does stand in the way ! That sin in your theology defeats the death of Christ.

 

[Josheb]

Yes, men by nature are dead to God !

Define it.

 

[Josheb]

Again, mans heart by nature is incurably wicked Jer 17:9 and therein lies his total depravity. Look at Gen 6:5

5 And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

Even men in their sincere religious efforts, it was wickedness and evil in Gods sight

Yet not only does God command doing right, but He also ascribes it sinners many times.

Deuteronomy 6:18
You shall do what is right and good in the sight of the LORD, so that it may go well for you and that you may go in and take possession of the good land which the LORD swore to give your fathers.

2 Kings 18:1-3
Now it came about in the third year of Hoshea, the son of Elah king of Israel, that Hezekiah the son of Ahaz king of Judah became king. He was twenty-five years old when he became king, and he reigned for twenty-nine years in Jerusalem; and his mother’s name was Abi the daughter of Zechariah. He did what was right in the sight of the LORD, in accordance with everything that his father David had done.

2 Chronicles 25:22
Amaziah was twenty-five years old when he became king, and he reigned in Jerusalem twenty-nine years. His mother’s name was Jehoaddan; she was from Jerusalem And he did what was right in the eyes of the LORD, but not wholeheartedly.

Even after stating every thought was only evil all the time Genesis 6 states, "Noah was a righteous man, blameless in his time; Noah walked with God."

Sinful. Deceitful and wicked hearts. Not dead. Able to do right and good. Considered by God righteous and blameless.

 

[Josheb]

I've got reality for that, just as I have what goes up comes down for the reality of gravity.
Parents loving children, caring for the elderly, etc., etc., etc. is the reality of morality.

None of which evidences Total Depravity is spiritual, not moral. It's certainly not more authoritative than scripture. I would, ironically, suggest that appeals to personal anecdotal experience as part of the problem in humanity to be solved because our experience should never be elevated over God's word.

 

[Eleanor]

None of which evidences Total Depravity is spiritual, not moral. It's certainly not more authoritative than scripture.

Where does Scripture state that all the unregenerate are immoral, in terms of the law?
It is in terms of submission to God that they are depraved.

I would, ironically, suggest that appeals to personal anecdotal experience as part of the problem in humanity to be solved because our experience should never be elevated over God's word.

So you deny that some of the unregenerate, for example, orthodox Jews, love well?

 

[brightfame52]

Define it.

Dead to God

 

[brightfame52]

Yet not only does God command doing right, but He also ascribes it sinners many times.

Deuteronomy 6:18
You shall do what is right and good in the sight of the LORD, so that it may go well for you and that you may go in and take possession of the good land which the LORD swore to give your fathers.

2 Kings 18:1-3
Now it came about in the third year of Hoshea, the son of Elah king of Israel, that Hezekiah the son of Ahaz king of Judah became king. He was twenty-five years old when he became king, and he reigned for twenty-nine years in Jerusalem; and his mother’s name was Abi the daughter of Zechariah. He did what was right in the sight of the LORD, in accordance with everything that his father David had done.

2 Chronicles 25:22
Amaziah was twenty-five years old when he became king, and he reigned in Jerusalem twenty-nine years. His mother’s name was Jehoaddan; she was from Jerusalem And he did what was right in the eyes of the LORD, but not wholeheartedly.

Even after stating every thought was only evil all the time Genesis 6 states, "Noah was a righteous man, blameless in his time; Noah walked with God."

Sinful. Deceitful and wicked hearts. Not dead. Able to do right and good. Considered by God righteous and blameless.

Again, mans heart by nature is incurably wicked Jer 17:9 and therein lies his total depravity. Look at Gen 6:5

5 And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

 

[sawdust]

You contradict yourself, mans failure to come to God is sin, so you obviously deny the efficacy of Christs death to change that.

See Christs death brings men to God, converts them 1 Pet 3:18

18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

So you calling Christs death a failure. But this thread is about mans total depravity, thats why men dont come to God,

Naturally we dont seek or desire God Rom 3:11

11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

So you believe the sin of not coming to God does stand in the way ! That sin in your theology defeats the death of Christ.

Ugh. It is not the Cross that prevents men from coming to God. Nor did Christ die so men could get a pass to heaven. He died to remove the barrier that prevented the righteous God from having a relationship with unrighteous people without compromising His own Integrity (justice).

Look again at the verse you quoted. He suffered for sin that He might bring men to God. If you think our response to the Cross, even a negative one, somehow makes Christ's death ineffective, then you really don't know the power of the Cross.

 

[atpollard]

Define it.

it (preposition): that one - used as subject or direct object or indirect object of a verb or object of a preposition usually in reference to a lifeless thing.

 

[atpollard]

Dead to God

I believe that he was requesting you define the phrase “Dead to God” so he could know EXACTLY what you meant by it (the phrase). Simply repeating the phrase does not define it.

If I say, “You are dead to me!” it means that I will no longer acknowledge anything about you. I have “washed my hands” [another idiom] of you. I will not listen to anything that you have to say. I do not care what happens to you.

Is that what God means and how God feels about people that are “Dead to God”?
(See, that is why YOU need to explain what YOU meant.)

 

[Josheb]

Where does Scripture state that all the unregenerate are immoral, in terms of the law?
It is in terms of submission to God that they are depraved.

So you deny that some of the unregenerate, for example, orthodox Jews, love well?

Oh, non, no, no. You don't get to change the subject and shift the onus in neglect of your own claims!!!

Prove Total Depravity is spiritual not moral. Use scripture, not personal opinion.

Or clarify and amend the original statement so that it is accurate.

Or acknowledge there's no such basis for the claim and we can discard it and move on. with the subject at hand (whether or not TD is a misnomer).

 

[Josheb]

Define it [dead to God].

Dead to God

Nonsense.

Yet not only does God command doing right, but He also ascribes it sinners many times.

Deuteronomy 6:18
You shall do what is right and good in the sight of the LORD, so that it may go well for you and that you may go in and take possession of the good land which the LORD swore to give your fathers.

2 Kings 18:1-3
Now it came about in the third year of Hoshea, the son of Elah king of Israel, that Hezekiah the son of Ahaz king of Judah became king. He was twenty-five years old when he became king, and he reigned for twenty-nine years in Jerusalem; and his mother’s name was Abi the daughter of Zechariah. He did what was right in the sight of the LORD, in accordance with everything that his father David had done.

2 Chronicles 25:22
Amaziah was twenty-five years old when he became king, and he reigned in Jerusalem twenty-nine years. His mother’s name was Jehoaddan; she was from Jerusalem And he did what was right in the eyes of the LORD, but not wholeheartedly.

Even after stating every thought was only evil all the time Genesis 6 states, "Noah was a righteous man, blameless in his time; Noah walked with God."

Sinful. Deceitful and wicked hearts. Not dead. Able to do right and good. Considered by God righteous and blameless.

Again, mans heart by nature is incurably wicked Jer 17:9 and therein lies his total depravity. Look at Gen 6:5

5 And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

Argumentum ad nauseam


TULIP is specifically about salvation. The "T" in TULIP is therefore, specifically about salvation. Because the effects of sin are total, we cannot act to affect our own salvation. No one makes the "U," the "L," the "I," or the "P" about anything other than salvation but for some reason many feel justified making the "T" about something more and something other than what it is.


Thank you or your time but I won't be going around with another set of repetition where you do not define your terms, answer questions asked, or persist in making the specifically soteriological term "Total Depravity" something more than it is.