Total Depravity. Was it a misnomer?

[donadams]

... like when Jesus rejected the Sadducees (absolute Law) and the Pharisees (Law and Prophets) and the Essenes (Law and Prophets and mortification of flesh) and the Zealots (Faith as Political Activism) and made the ridiculous claim:

"And just as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, so that everyone who believes will have eternal life in Him. For God so loved the world, that He gave His only Son, so that everyone who believes in Him will not perish, but have eternal life. For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but so that the world might be saved through Him. The one who believes in Him is not judged; the one who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God. And this is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the Light; for their deeds were evil. For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light, so that his deeds will not be exposed. But the one who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds will be revealed as having been performed in God." - John 3​

How dare these Protestant RADICALS reject the "good works" traditions of their learned Church Leaders [handed down from OT examples and Judaic typologies] and believe the words of this unlearned first century rogue preacher! ​

Christians are saved by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone, as revealed by Scripture alone, to the glory of God alone.

• Sola Gratia​

• Sola Fide ​

• Solus Christus ​

• Sola Scriptura ​

• Soli Deo Gloria​

Scripture declares the five Protestant Solas are false doctrine!

Only one verse that contradicts a sola is required to prove it “false doctrine”.

Faith alone: Phil 1:29 For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;


Christ alone: Christ alone: John 5:24
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.


Grace alone: Mk 16:16 He who believes and is baptized shall be saved.


Scripture alone: Matt 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:


Glory to God alone: Romans 2:10
But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:


All five sola’s are “false doctrine” and another Gospel having departed from the faith revealed by Jesus christ!

1 Timothy 4:1
Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

Galatians 1:6
I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:

Novelties:

2 Timothy 4:3
For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;

Thanks

 

[atpollard]

Faith alone: Phil 1:29 For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;

Are you actually saying that anyone not martyred is not saved?
SUFFERING is required for SALVATION?
I am not a RCC hater, but you are doing the RCC a disservice with this nonsensical apologetics.

(That would explain those hard kneeling benches in church and the stories of nuns with rulers.)

 

[donadams]

Are you actually saying that anyone not martyred is not saved?
SUFFERING is required for SALVATION?
I am not a RCC hater, but you are doing the RCC a disservice with this nonsensical apologetics.

(That would explain those hard kneeling benches in church and the stories of nuns with rulers.)

That smarts! I remember them nuns but so how we grew to love them for disciplining us in the Lord!

Why convert suffering into martyrdom?

Matthew 10:38
And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.

Matthew 16:24
Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

Do these also imply martyrdom?

 

[atpollard]

Why convert suffering into martyrdom?

I believe that was the context of the suffering in "Philippians". Ask Stephen what suffering meant to the first century church.

However it does not change the question significantly:

• Is SUFFERING a prerequisite for SALVATION?
• Are those that have not "suffered" still unsaved?

When I studied "A Catechism for Inquirers" it failed to mention that particular Catholic teaching. That seems even less like the Gospels than some of the Marian doctrines that I could not affirm belief in (which ultimately prevented me from joining the RCC, since I would not lie about my beliefs).

As I said, I do not hate the RCC, I simply disagree on important doctrines.

 

[GeneZ]

Typo. . .throughout the OT soul is used of the entire person.

That is not a claim of its only use, nor of person never being referred to with another word.

If that is so... you should have no problem citing a few verses, please.

Not sure if you are reading them right, because I do not recall reading such a thing in the OT.

 

[donadams]

I believe that was the context of the suffering in "Philippians". Ask Stephen what suffering meant to the first century church.

However it does not change the question significantly:

• Is SUFFERING a prerequisite for SALVATION?
• Are those that have not "suffered" still unsaved?

When I studied "A Catechism for Inquirers" it failed to mention that particular Catholic teaching. That seems even less like the Gospels than some of the Marian doctrines that I could not affirm belief in (which ultimately prevented me from joining the RCC, since I would not lie about my beliefs).

As I said, I do not hate the RCC, I simply disagree on important doctrines.

It’s all good!

Are all Christians “called to suffer” for the sake of Christ and his church?

Is matt the gospel

Matthew 10:38
And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.

Matthew 16:24
Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

Colossians 1:24
Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church:

What’s lacking or behind?

Our participation

No none are saved until we die.
Mk 13:13 Matt 24:13 heb 13:17 and many more

We must abide in Christ and endure to the end to be saved! Jn 15:1-5 Matt 24:13

Thanks

 

[Eleanor]

If that is so... you should have no problem citing a few verses, please.

Not sure if you are reading them right, because I do not recall reading such a thing in the OT.

Ge 2:7, 17:14, 46:22, etc., etc., etc.

 

[donadams]

I believe that was the context of the suffering in "Philippians". Ask Stephen what suffering meant to the first century church.

However it does not change the question significantly:

• Is SUFFERING a prerequisite for SALVATION?
• Are those that have not "suffered" still unsaved?

When I studied "A Catechism for Inquirers" it failed to mention that particular Catholic teaching. That seems even less like the Gospels than some of the Marian doctrines that I could not affirm belief in (which ultimately prevented me from joining the RCC, since I would not lie about my beliefs).

As I said, I do not hate the RCC, I simply disagree on important doctrines.

It does say it is required to reign with christ and receive heavenly glory

Romans 8:17
And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and I joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

2 Timothy 2:12
If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:

Thanks

 

[Josheb]

Thats why man by nature is totally depraved. Being totally depraved doesnt mean a person is a raving lunatic, a rapest, or serial killed....

It does if humans are incapable of any good.

.....some of the most respectable, honest, hardworking decent people, charitable...

There are no such people of humans are incapable of any good.

...are totally depraved, no spiritual life...

totally depraved is not synonymous with no spiritual life and it has already been shown where scripture diversely shows sinfully dead people are nor spiritually dead.

....dead to God and hes unable to change their godless condition.

"Dead to God" is another meaningless phrase until it is defined and a plethora of verses from beginning to end show God interacting with humans diversely. Every single one of those examples defies the premise of sinners being "dead to God."

 

[Josheb]

@Josheb



Sure it is, man dead in sin is wicked, and depraved,

Speaking of the dead in sin, Eph 2:3

2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
Col 1:21

And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled

Mans heart by nature is described Jer 17:9

9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

This condition is not curable,

That is true.

its total depravity

No, it is not. Total Depravity is doctrinally limited solely to the matter of salvation. All it means is sinful humans are incapable of coming to God in their own might for salvation. The alternative view is that humans retain an ability to come to God and respond to God in their own (God given) might while still corrupted by sin. That view is called Pelagianism. Total depravity is not utter depravity. Total depravity does not speak to matters outside the category of salvation. Much that you have posted about the effects of sin are true and correct but they have nothing to do with TD.


Sin causes some people to murder, but it does not cause all people to murder.
Sin causes some people to smoke opium, but it does not cause all people to smoke opium.
Sin causes all people to disobey God, but it does not cause them all to disobey God in exactly the same way(s).

Sin causes all people to be incapable of coming to God for salvation on their own. That is the one homogenously universal effect of sin.

 

[brightfame52]

It does if humans are incapable of any good.

There are no such people of humans are incapable of any good.

totally depraved is not synonymous with no spiritual life and it has already been shown where scripture diversely shows sinfully dead people are nor spiritually dead.

"Dead to God" is another meaningless phrase until it is defined and a plethora of verses from beginning to end show God interacting with humans diversely. Every single one of those examples defies the premise of sinners being "dead to God."

Again men by nature are dead to God, therein lies their total depravity.

 

[brightfame52]

That is true.

No, it is not. Total Depravity is doctrinally limited solely to the matter of salvation. All it means is sinful humans are incapable of coming to God in their own might for salvation. The alternative view is that humans retain an ability to come to God and respond to God in their own (God given) might while still corrupted by sin. That view is called Pelagianism. Total depravity is not utter depravity. Total depravity does not speak to matters outside the category of salvation. Much that you have posted about the effects of sin are true and correct but they have nothing to do with TD.


Sin causes some people to murder, but it does not cause all people to murder.
Sin causes some people to smoke opium, but it does not cause all people to smoke opium.
Sin causes all people to disobey God, but it does not cause them all to disobey God in exactly the same way(s).

Sin causes all people to be incapable of coming to God for salvation on their own. That is the one homogenously universal effect of sin.

Mans heart by nature is totally depraved. Jer 17:9

9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

And Yes this is about Salvation, being in a right relationship with God, in that regard, man naturally is dead, lost, without hope

 

[Eleanor]

It does if humans are incapable of any good.

Total depravity is spiritual, not moral.

Spiritually, it means unregenerate man is totally incapable of anything spiritual (of the Holy Spirit) and acceptable to God.

One has to be in right standing with God for anything to be acceptable to him.

It's not complicated.

 

[Josheb]

Again men by nature are dead to God, therein lies their total depravity.

Again...

Again men by nature are dead to God...

That is incorrect. Men are by nature dead in sin, and I have provided plenty of scriptural examples to prove it incorrect. The idea "dead to God" is an addition to scripture. The sinner is dead in sin, but God remains sovereign over all, including all sin and all sinners, and God demonstrates His constant involvement with those dead in sin from the beginning of scripture until its end. Post-disobedient Adam was not dead to God. God clothed him and sent him out to believe and obey. Cain was dealt with directly by God in admonition and exhortation. God marked him. He was not dead to God. Seth was appointed by God as an offspring to replace Abel, and men began to worship God with the birth of his son, Enosh. I can go through the Bible chapter by chapter and list scores of additional examples all the way up to the second resurrection and second death.

Men are not by nature dead to God.


It was while we still sinners that Christ died for us!!! God made him who knew no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

...therein lies their total depravity.

Sin prevents humanity from coming to God in their own might for salvation. Sin, not being dead to God.


Would you like to go around again ad nauseam or maybe add something new to the conversation?

 

[Josheb]

Mans heart by nature is totally depraved. Jer 17:9

9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

Moving the goal post. We're discussing "dead to God," being synonymous with, causal to, or evidence of total depravity.

Man's heart by nature being totally depraved does not mean humans are dead to God.

And Yes this is about Salvation, being in a right relationship with God, in that regard, man naturally is dead, lost, without hope

And it was while we were still sinners that Christ died for us. He died so that we would not. Sinners are not dead to God.


What do you mean by "dead to God"? Can you provide me with a verse that says the sinner is dead to God?

Luke 20:38
Now He is not the God of the dead, but of the living; for all live to Him.

Psalm 139:8
If I ascend to heaven, You are there; If I make my bed in Sheol, behold, You are there.

There is no place in all of creation where God is not. Not even the sinfully dead who are dead in the grave are dead to God.

 

[Josheb]

Total depravity is spiritual, not moral.

Got scripture for that?

Spiritually, it means unregenerate man is totally incapable of anything spiritual (of the Holy Spirit) and acceptable to God.

Yep. Already covered. Has nothing to do with the doctrine of Total Depravity (TD).

One has to be in right standing with God for anything to be acceptable to him.

Yep. Has nothing to do with TD.

It's not complicated.

No, it is not but you see how many people misconstrue TD and want to make TD something other or more than what it is. The thread should have been concluded with 100% unity many pages ago. Total Depravity is not utter depravity. It is a doctrine specifically limited to the matter of salvation. While it is true humanity can do nothing Spiritual as a consequence of sin, the only specific to which TD speaks is humanity's inability to come to God for salvation.


This should not be a point of debate or dispute. No one tries to apply the U, the L, the I, or the P to arena's outside of their specified domain in salvation. Why then do otherwise earnest believers try to make the T about things it is not about?

 

[sawdust]

You eluded to" God drawing sinners by silencing and forcing...". How so, I asked, and you reply with nothing

Honestly how can you not see the answer when he has stated it from the first post and all through this discussion?

 

[sawdust]

I comprehended you said this:

But you didn't seem to comprehend he said this as well:

He is the Savior of even those who will reject his "offer." Its available to all.

You are confusing what Christ did (saved the world) and how that salvation is to be applied. Every sin of every man has been wiped off the board and nailed to the tree. The sin barrier is gone for everyone. Salvation is in Christ alone. You want to know that salvation? Then you will need to be as God said and be believing.

 

[Ladodgers6]

Honestly how can you not see the answer when he has stated it from the first post and all through this discussion?

Really, where? Because I kept asking him to clarify it.

 

[GeneZ]

Really, where? Because I kept asking him to clarify it.

The reason Sawdust gave you is the reason I saw no use in trying....

@sawdust "Honestly how can you not see the answer when he has stated it from the first post and all through this discussion?"
https://christcentered.community.forum/threads/total-depravity-was-it-a-misnomer.380/post-35798

Now you know...