Total Depravity. Was it a misnomer?

[ReverendRV]

I like that imagery, but the fact remains (as explained in Post #299) there is not spiritless human.

I have often talked of the sinner as an "animated corpse plodding through what is falsely imagined to be a life toward inevitable destruction." And if asked, I'd readily say there's not a word there actually used by scripture to define "dead in sin."

I try to keep my Gospel Tracts as Sound as possible, but they are mostly meant for the Lost, common man...

 

[GeneZ]

The Living Dead ~ by ReverndRV * November 2

Ephesians 2:1+2 ESV; And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience—

History is filled with the stories of Night Walkers. Vampires ruled the nights and people were afraid to go out in the evening. Later there were stories about Mummies coming to life thru the power of an ancient curse. Now our society is consumed by a different kind of Night Walker; Zombies, the walking dead. It’s not such a far-fetched prospect; the Bible talks about a few who have been raised from the Dead. None of these though were menacing figures; for instance, Lazarus was the friend of Jesus. ~ When Paul wrote these verses, he was talking about another kind of the living dead; you and me. There was no one else more alive than Adam and Eve but God said the day they ate fruit from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, they would surely die. They did eat the fruit but to our surprise they lived for hundreds of years after that; even though a part of them did die that day. ~ They were the first walking dead in history…

Because of this, we are born as members of the walking dead. This may be hard to believe but if we met Adam before he Sinned, we would be frightened because of how alive he was; like when people in the Bible were frightened of Angels after they met them. Imagine being more afraid of the walking Living than of the walking dead? ~ Have you ever told a Lie? What would you call someone who Lied to you? A Liar, right? Have you ever Stolen ‘anything’? What would you call someone who Stole your car? A Thief, right? Have you Honored your father and mother? Did you ever give your mother a reason to cry? The Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil represents the Moral Law of God; the Ten Commandments. So far you have taken three bites out of the apple and you’ve learned what Good is; through being Evil. If God judged you by this Standard would you be innocent or guilty? Would you go to Heaven or go to Hell?

You’ve eaten from the same Tree as they did; to God you are a Night Walker! What you need is to be raised from the dead. ~ For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in him shall not perish but have everlasting Life. Jesus Christ is the only other person who is as alive as Adam and Eve, but he took the form of a servant and had no beauty that we should desire him. His Soul was attractive though because he was born Sinless, and he grew in Wisdom. Only he was Good enough to please God and to be the Savior of the world. He shed his blood on a Cross for the Remission of Sin, and was buried; but he arose from the grave as the Author of Life. We’re Saved by the Grace of God through Faith in the risen Savior Jesus Christ, without Works lest we boast. Repent of your Sins, Confess Jesus Christ as your Lord God and start going to Church; and read the Bible. ~ We fear Death; as seen in our fascination with the Dead. Fear of the Living God is even greater; the beginning of Wisdom…

1st Samuel 2:6 NIV; "The LORD brings death and makes alive; he brings down to the grave and raises up.

Jesus called the unregenerate "dead." Luke 9:57-60

As they were walking along the road, a man said to him, “I will follow you wherever you go.”

Jesus replied, “Foxes have dens and birds have nests, but the Son of Man has no place to lay his head.”

He said to another man, “Follow me.”

But he replied, “Lord, first let me go and bury my father.”

Jesus said to him, “Let the dead bury their own dead, but you go and proclaim the kingdom of God.”​

They were physically alive..but spiritually dead.

The Greek of 1 Corinthians 2:14 means that the 'natural man' is a psukikos man. = soulish man. Only soul. Having no spirit.

But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; ​

nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."​

grace and peace ..............

 

[Josheb]

I try to keep my Gospel Tracts as Sound as possible, but they are mostly meant for the Lost, common man...

I might be much more flexible with language were I speaking/writing to a non-Christian audience but in Christians DBs I prefer to stick to the language of scripture much more, while endeavoring to avoid legalism.

 

[ReverendRV]

Jesus called the unregenerate "dead." Luke 9:57-60

As they were walking along the road, a man said to him, “I will follow you wherever you go.”​

​

Jesus replied, “Foxes have dens and birds have nests, but the Son of Man has no place to lay his head.”​

​

He said to another man, “Follow me.”​

​

But he replied, “Lord, first let me go and bury my father.”​

​

Jesus said to him, “Let the dead bury their own dead, but you go and proclaim the kingdom of God.”​

They were physically alive..but spiritually dead.

The Greek of 1 Corinthians 2:14 means that the 'natural man' is a psukikos man. = soulish man. Only soul. Having no spirit.

But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; ​

nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."​

grace and peace ..............

Excellent...

Are you finally coming around to Calvinism?

 

[GeneZ]

Excellent...

Are you finally coming around to Calvinism?

My pastor called the system I have learned to think with, Biblical Orthodoxy.

Calvinism has some things right where we will agree.

My pastor who taught from the Hebrew and Greek, also said Calvin was a better exegetical scholar than Luther.

 

[Josheb]

My pastor.....

......................

My pastor......

Do you believe him?

 

[brightfame52]

The doctrine simply means those affected by sin cannot and do not approach God in their own might for salvation. TD is the effect of sin than the nature or ability of the sinner. TD does not have anything to say about whether or not a sinner can do moral good in other areas of life. It makes no claim the person who has sinned is only totally morally and spiritually depraved. These are common misconceptions about TD and many a strawman has been argued because of these misconceptions. The doctrine is limited specifically to the matter of salvation.

That is not to say sinners aren't affected by sin in other ways. Sinful humans are capable of morally good acts and morally bad acts, but even a morally good act done in the sinful flesh has no salvific merit. God might commend it as a good act but works do not save, especially not works done by sinful flesh. Simply put, sin does not affect salvation from sin.

It does not help that there is enormous inconsistency from teacher to teacher. Reformed teacher Steve Lawson over at R. C. Sproul's Ligonier, for example, states,

"The doctrine of total depravity does not mean that all humankind is as evil as it possibly could be. Rather, it means that sin affects the whole person. We are born corrupted, poisoned, and polluted by sin. Our minds are darkened and we cannot see or understand the truth. Our hearts are defiled so that they do not love the truth. We love what we should hate, and we hate what we should love. Our wills are in bondage to sin, and we cannot believe the gospel in and of themselves. We sin because we are sinners and because we have a sin nature."​

R. C. Sproul himself wrote,

"In the Reformed tradition, total depravity does not mean utter depravity. We often use the term total as a synonym for utter or for completely, so the notion of total depravity conjures up the idea that every human being is as bad as that person could possibly be.......... So the idea of total in total depravity doesn’t mean that all human beings are as wicked as they can possibly be. It means that the fall was so serious that it affects the whole person. The fallenness that captures and grips our human nature affects our bodies; that’s why we become ill and die. It affects our minds and our thinking; we still have the capacity to think, but the Bible says the mind has become darkened and weakened. The will of man is no longer in its pristine state of moral power. The will, according to the New Testament, is now in bondage. We are enslaved to the evil impulses and desires of our hearts. The body, the mind, the will, the spirit—indeed, the whole person—have been infected by the power of sin."​

We're not as bad as we could be. We are not utterly depraved, only totally depraved . To be as wicked as we could be would mean no moral good could occur. Seth could not worship God, Noah couldn't build a boat, Abram couldn't leave Ur, etc. Remember TULIP is specifically about salvation. The "T" in TULIP is therefore, specifically about salvation. Because the effects of sin are total, we cannot act to affect our own salvation.

Man by nature is dead to God, and that's the foundation of his total inability or depravity. Rom 5:15

15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

 

[brightfame52]

No, not the same thing. Adding to scripture is not a good thing, especially when it's not necessary to do so.


The implication of "spiritually dead" is that the physically living person is walking around with no spirit, or the corpse of a spirit inside, and that's not scriptural.

Jesus told men they had no life in them, He means Spiritual life or life to God. Man has a human spirit, but again its dead to God. See man by nature is alienated from the life of God Eph 4:18

Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart

 

[brightfame52]

There is spiritual life; it is not the life of the Spirit.

• All humans have a spirit. To be human is to have one. To not have a spirit is to not be human.
• The spirit humans have is not the Holy Spirit, the Separate Sacred Spirit of God.
• Humanity is inherently spiritual; most humans idolatrously so. The problem is so pervasive that God separated a people from all the rest and made the holy (separated for sacred purpose).
• There is spiritual life, but not Spiritual life.
• Furthermore, God's Spirit dells in various men in various ways that are not salvific.

And these matters get muddied with a nowhere-found-in-scripture label like "spiritually dead."

Numbers 27:18
So the LORD said to Moses, "Take Joshua the son of Nun, a man in whom is the Spirit, and lay your hand on him;

Job 32:7-9
I thought age should speak, and increased years should teach wisdom. But it is a spirit in man, And the breath of the Almighty gives them understanding. The abundant in years may not be wise, nor may elders understand justice.

Psalm 32:2
How blessed is the man to whom the LORD does not impute iniquity, and in whose spirit there is no deceit!

Proverbs 18:14
The spirit of a man can endure his sickness, But as for a broken spirit who can bear it?

Proverbs 25:28
Like a city that is broken into and without walls Is a man who has no control over his spirit.

Daniel 5:11
There is a man in your kingdom in whom is a spirit of the holy gods; and in the days of your father, illumination, insight and wisdom like the wisdom of the gods were found in him. And King Nebuchadnezzar, your father, your father the king, appointed him chief of the magicians, conjurers, Chaldeans and diviners.

Luke 2:25
And there was a man in Jerusalem whose name was Simeon; and this man was righteous and devout, looking for the consolation of Israel; and the Holy Spirit was upon him.

1 Corinthians 2:11
For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so the thoughts of God no one knows except the Spirit of God.

2 Peter 1:21
for prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit.


Not a single one of those examples is of a saved-from-sin John 3:3 regenerate person. So, we see there is a variety of spiritual activity in sinful and unregenerate humans. The phrase "spiritually dead" can be useful but it is prone to be misleading, as evidenced by the responses the inquiry received. The correct answer is "It is not a phrase used in scripture, but it is one that can be inferred by reading scripture a certain way."

Man naturally has a human spirit, thats never denied, however he has no spiritual life relative to God as fellowship and intimacy, hes dead to God. When man is given life, he is made alive to God Rom 6:11

Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

 

[Eleanor]

In the mean while.... did you see the OT references to the Soul of Jesus which was in Heaven before the Incarnation?
'You will eat the old supply and clear out the old because of the new.
Moreover, I will make my dwelling among you, and my soul will not
reject you.'I will also walk among you and be your God, and you shall
be My people." Lev 26:10-12


And they began to remove the foreign gods from their midst
and to serve Jehovah, so that his soul became impatient because
of the trouble of Israel. Jdges 10:16



Jehovah himself examines the righteous one as well as the wicked one,
and anyone loving violence his soul certainly hates." Ps 11:5



“Bring no more futile sacrifices; Incense is an abomination to Me.
The New Moons, the Sabbaths, and the calling of assemblies—
I cannot endure iniquity and the sacred meeting. Your New Moons
and your appointed feasts my soul hates; They are a trouble to Me,
I am weary of bearing them.. Isa 1:13-14

Throughout the NT, soul is used of the entire person.

 

[brightfame52]

Man by nature is dead to God and must be quickened, for they are incapable themselves of doing anything for their own spiritual good.

Rom 3:10-12

10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

 

[Josheb]

Man by nature is dead to God, and that's the foundation of his total inability or depravity. Rom 5:15

15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

So what? What does that have to do with TD?

Jesus told men they had no life in them, He means Spiritual life or life to God. Man has a human spirit, but again its dead to God. See man by nature is alienated from the life of God Eph 4:18

Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart

So what" What does that have to do with TD?

Man naturally has a human spirit, thats never denied, however he has no spiritual life relative to God as fellowship and intimacy, hes dead to God. When man is given life, he is made alive to God Rom 6:11

Scripture - a plethora of scripture - repeatedly and diversely proves otherwise. Man is by design a spiritual being. God made humanity that way. The denial of God's existence does not and cannot occur in a vacuum. In order for God to be denied His existence must first implicitly be acknowledged. And that is exactly what scripture tells us happens.

Equating death with depravity is a false equivalence. Equating total depravity with utter depravity is also a false equivalence.

Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Every single individual (except Jesus) who has ever lived being dead in sin is not in dispute. You can repeat as many times as you like, and my response will be uniformly the same every time.

YEP!


Being dead in sin is not the same as being depraved and the doctrine of Total Depravity is specifically soteriological, not hamartiological. Both soteriology and hamartiology are large, encompassing doctrines of which TD is just a very small part. Thinking one part is representative of the whole is a construction error.

 

[brightfame52]

@Josheb

So what? What does that have to do with TD?

Thats why man by nature is totally depraved. Being totally depraved doesnt mean a person is a raving lunatic, a rapest, or serial killed, some of the most respectable, honest, hardworking decent people, charitable, are totally depraved, no spiritual life, dead to God and hes unable to change their godless condition.

 

[brightfame52]

@Josheb

Being dead in sin is not the same as being depraved and the doctrine of Total Depravity

Sure it is, man dead in sin is wicked, and depraved,

Speaking of the dead in sin, Eph 2:3

2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
Col 1:21

And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled

Mans heart by nature is described Jer 17:9

9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

This condition is not curable, its total depravity

 

[GeneZ]

Throughout the NT, soul is used of the entire person.

Not the entire person...

May God himself, the God of peace, sanctify you through and through.
May your whole spirit, soul and body be kept blameless at the coming
of our Lord Jesus Christ." 1 Thes 5:23


When you die you are absent from the body and face to face with the Lord.

We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body
and to be present with the Lord." 2 Cor 5:8

The your soul is what goes to be present with the Lord. That is the real you.

The body is just a *biological vehicle* God gives, so we (our soul)
may live in a created world, to have connection with it, as to get around.
We are going to get a new and *glorious vehicle* in the Resurrection.

And?

For “you were like sheep going astray,” but now you have returned
to the Shepherd and Overseer of your souls." 1 Pet 2:25

What was it that Jesus saved? Our soul.
The soul is the real being whom we are.

We are not spirits. Angels are spirits.
Humans are souls that God may add a human spirit to (regeneration) as the means for us to relate to spiritual realities.

grace and peace ............

 

[Eleanor]

Not the entire person...

May God himself, the God of peace, sanctify you through and through.
May your whole spirit, soul and body be kept blameless at the coming
of our Lord Jesus Christ." 1 Thes 5:23


When you die you are absent from the body and face to face with the Lord.
The your soul is what goes to be present with the Lord. That is the real you.

The body is just a *biological vehicle* God gives, so we (our soul)
may live in a created world, to have connection with it, as to get around.
We are going to get a new and *glorious vehicle* in the Resurrection.

And?

For “you were like sheep going astray,” but now you have returned
to the Shepherd and Overseer of your souls." 1 Pet 2:25

What was it that Jesus saved? Our soul.
The soul is the real being whom we are.

We are not spirits. Angels are spirits.
Humans are souls that God may add a human spirit to (regeneration) as the means for us to relate to spiritual realities.

grace and peace ............

Typo. . .throughout the OT soul is used of the entire person.

That is not a claim of its only use, nor of person never being referred to with another word.

 

[atpollard]

Total Depravity. Was it a misnomer?​

Nope.

 

[GeneZ]

Typo. . .throughout the OT soul is used of the entire person.

That is not a claim of its only use, nor of person never being referred to with another word.

We can keep finding things if we do not want to get to the "soul" of the issue if you so desire.

As for me? The human soul has been the sole issue in this discussion.

 

[donadams]

We're done here.

The original so-called reformers were soundly opposed by the new fundamentalist reformers who rejected all authority bishops, ordained priests, and sacraments!

These in turn were opposed by the puritanical rigorists who claimed only need to be born again and saved and we don’t care what anybody believes, or does, cos the blood covers all, a total spiritual anarchy.

 

[atpollard]

The original so-called reformers were soundly opposed by the new fundamentalist reformers who rejected all authority bishops, ordained priests, and sacraments!

These in turn were opposed by the puritanical rigorists who claimed only need to be born again and saved and we don’t care what anybody believes, or does, cos the blood covers all, a total spiritual anarchy.

... like when Jesus rejected the Sadducees (absolute Law) and the Pharisees (Law and Prophets) and the Essenes (Law and Prophets and mortification of flesh) and the Zealots (Faith as Political Activism) and made the ridiculous claim:

"And just as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, so that everyone who believes will have eternal life in Him. For God so loved the world, that He gave His only Son, so that everyone who believes in Him will not perish, but have eternal life. For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but so that the world might be saved through Him. The one who believes in Him is not judged; the one who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God. And this is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the Light; for their deeds were evil. For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light, so that his deeds will not be exposed. But the one who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds will be revealed as having been performed in God." - John 3​

How dare these Protestant RADICALS reject the "good works" traditions of their learned Church Leaders [handed down from OT examples and Judaic typologies] and believe the words of this unlearned first century rogue preacher! ​

Christians are saved by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone, as revealed by Scripture alone, to the glory of God alone.

• Sola Gratia​

• Sola Fide ​

• Solus Christus ​

• Sola Scriptura ​

• Soli Deo Gloria​