Total Depravity. Was it a misnomer?

[David1701]

Until Pentecost? A regenerated person had a human spirit.
An unregenerate person consisted of only body and soul, no human spirit.

Peter was a believer before Pentecost. He was regenerate. Peter was body, soul, and human spirit.

After Pentecost, Peter was body, soul, human spirit, and the indwelling Holy Spirit.


The human spirit and the Holy Spirit are not one and the same.

"The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God’s children." Rom 8:16​

​

"May God himself, the God of peace, sanctify you through and through. ​

May your whole spirit, soul and body be kept blameless at the coming ​

of our Lord Jesus Christ." 1 Thes 5:23​

Before the Church age all believers were trichotomous. Body soul and human spirit.
The unbeliever was dichotomous - only body and soul. No regeneration.

grace and peace .................

Ecc. 12:5-7 (KJV)
5 Also when they shall be afraid of that which is high, and fears shall be in the way, and the almond tree shall flourish, and the grasshopper shall be a burden, and desire shall fail: because man goeth to his long home, and the mourners go about the streets:
6 Or ever the silver cord be loosed, or the golden bowl be broken, or the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern.
7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

Pro. 16:2 All the ways of a man are clean in his own eyes; but the LORD weigheth the spirits.

Pro. 18:14 The spirit of a man will sustain his infirmity; but a wounded spirit who can bear?

Pro. 20:27 The spirit of man is the candle of the LORD, searching all the inward parts of the belly.

Every person has a spirit! The unregenerate person's spirit is dead towards God and goodness, not non-existent.

 

[makesends]

Until Pentecost? A regenerated person had a human spirit.
An unregenerate person consisted of only body and soul, no human spirit.

Peter was a believer before Pentecost. He was regenerate. Peter was body, soul, and human spirit.

After Pentecost, Peter was body, soul, human spirit, and the indwelling Holy Spirit.


The human spirit and the Holy Spirit are not one and the same.

"The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God’s children." Rom 8:16​

​

"May God himself, the God of peace, sanctify you through and through. ​

May your whole spirit, soul and body be kept blameless at the coming ​

of our Lord Jesus Christ." 1 Thes 5:23​

Before the Church age all believers were trichotomous. Body soul and human spirit.
The unbeliever was dichotomous - only body and soul. No regeneration.

grace and peace .................

To say that a person can be regenerated without the Spirit of God denies John 3, besides other passages.

You say, "Before the Church age all believers were trichotomous. Body soul and human spirit.
The unbeliever was dichotomous - only body and soul. No regeneration."
Where do you get this? The Bible doesn't say this. It is only speculation.

But it is worse than unBiblical. It denies the work of the Holy Spirit in regeneration. It denies the dynamics of the Gospel. It denies that salvific faith can only be generated within the person by the Spirit of God.

 

[Eleanor]

Oy vey....
We = soul.

soul = principle of natural life in humans and animals
immortal spirit = principle of spiritual life in humans and principle of life in the human soul (which soul is the principle of natural life in humans and animals)

We = that which is with Christ at death and which returns to the resurrection body; i.e., the immortal human spirit

You want to believe we are spirit? Then we would not need to be born again if that were so.

There are three kinds of spirits, divine (Godhead), angelic and human.
The immortal human spirit itself does not die, it lost the divine eternal life within it at the fall.
Re-generation is re-impartation of the divine eternal life to the immortal human spirit, which divine eternal life was lost in the fall.

We (who are regenerate) are body, soul, and spirit.

All mankind is body, soul and spirit. It is what distinguishes him from the animals who are simply body and soul.

You want to believe we are spirit? Then we would not need to be born again if that were so.
We (who are regenerate) are body, soul, and spirit.

Agreed, man is body, soul and immortal spirit (the locus of his rationality and spirituality, without his human spirit he simply being an animal),
born in Biblical spiritual death (no divine eternal life within his immoral spirit, it being lost by Adam in the fall),
is given divine eternal life in his re-birth by the Holy Spirit re-imparting God's divine eternal life to his immortal spirit in the Holy Spirit's indwelling thereof.

The word of God being powerful enough to divide between soul and spirit indicates the difficulty in distinguishing between the soul and the immortal spirit, which are much alike in their nature and activities, both being part of man, associated with the emotions and rejoicing in God.
They do not lend themselves to separation in the NT, only to distinction.

 

[GeneZ]

To say that a person can be regenerated without the Spirit of God denies John 3, besides other passages.

You are reading me all wrong....

 

[GeneZ]

soul = principle of natural life in humans and animals
immortal spirit = principle of spiritual life in humans and principle of life in the human soul (which soul is the principle of natural life in humans and animals)

Are we going to find human spirits in Hell?

Or, human souls?

 

[Eleanor]

Are we going to find human spirits in Hell?

Or, human souls?

You'll find whatever accompanies their resurrected bodies.

That question is not completely answered in Scripture.

 

[GeneZ]

To say that a person can be regenerated without the Spirit of God denies John 3, besides other passages.

You say, "Before the Church age all believers were trichotomous. Body soul and human spirit.
The unbeliever was dichotomous - only body and soul. No regeneration."
Where do you get this? The Bible doesn't say this. It is only speculation.

But it is worse than unBiblical. It denies the work of the Holy Spirit in regeneration. It denies the dynamics of the Gospel. It denies that salvific faith can only be generated within the person by the Spirit of God.

You can have no human spirit without the Holy Spirit "begetting" your human spirit in regeneration.

Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God
unless they are born of water and the Spirit. Flesh gives birth to flesh, but
the Spirit gives birth to spirit. You should not be surprised at my saying,
‘You must be born again.’ John 3:5-7


Nicodemus was yet a Jew when Jesus told him he needed to be born again.

So, since it was before the resurrection and Pentecost the Holy Spirit was not yet being given at regeneration...
Jesus was not telling Nicodemus that he needed to receive the indwelling Holy Spirit to be born again.
But, that he needed to have the Holy Spirit beget his human spirit.

Like Nicodemus OT saints were all born again. They received a human spirit at regeneration.

The Church is the same way at regeneration. But, we now also receive also the *gift* of the Holy Spirit to indwell our body.

Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ
for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit." Acts 2:38

In Christ .................

 

[GeneZ]

You'll find whatever accompanies their resurrected bodies.

You have no answer. Just dogmatic assertion.

 

[GeneZ]

You'll find whatever accompanies their resurrected bodies.

You know it will be their spirit?
You show us one verse that makes such a claim for the unregenerate in their resurrection before judgment.

Jesus did not call the unbelievers "dead" without reason.
They are spiritually dead... (having no human spirit)

Matthew 8:20-22...

And Jesus said to him, “Foxes have holes, and birds of the air have nests; ​

but the Son of man has nowhere to lay his head.” ​

​

Another of the disciples said to him, “Lord, let me first go and bury my father.” ​

But Jesus said to him, “Follow me, and leave the dead to bury their own dead.”​

​

​

A soul without a human spirit is spiritually dead.


....................

 

[Carbon]

Welcome mean Gene the dancin machine. Good to see you here brother.

The dancing machine?
Huh, I've never seen him dance, not even once.

 

[makesends]

You can have no human spirit without the Holy Spirit "begetting" your human spirit in regeneration.

Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God
unless they are born of water and the Spirit. Flesh gives birth to flesh, but
the Spirit gives birth to spirit. You should not be surprised at my saying,
‘You must be born again.’ John 3:5-7


Nicodemus was yet a Jew when Jesus told him he needed to be born again.

So, since it was before the resurrection and Pentecost the Holy Spirit was not yet being given at regeneration...
Jesus was not telling Nicodemus that he needed to receive the indwelling Holy Spirit to be born again.
But, that he needed to have the Holy Spirit beget his human spirit.

Like Nicodemus OT saints were all born again. They received a human spirit at regeneration.

The Church is the same way at regeneration. But, we now also receive also the *gift* of the Holy Spirit to indwell our body.

Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ
for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit." Acts 2:38

In Christ .................

Well, I'll be. I never considered this use of "Spirit gives birth to spirit"! Certainly counter-intuitive!

So to you, those with the mind of flesh (Romans 8) at enmity with God, have a very literal non-being, an order of existence below that of those who are regenerated? This is your use of 'spiritually dead' —spiritually non-existent? Hmmm!

 

[makesends]

You have no answer. Just dogmatic assertion.

You may not realize, that to assert something, then "back it up with Scripture", is still assertion, in that you assert your quoted Scripture means what you take it to mean and applies how you take it to apply. This is particularly noticeable when you are dogmatic in your interpretation/use of Scripture, and then go on to claim that anyone who opposes what you say, is in effect opposing Scripture.

 

[GeneZ]

The dancing machine?
Huh, I've never seen him dance, not even once.

Because... I make it an effort not to make stuff up.

 

[GeneZ]

You may not realize, that to assert something, then "back it up with Scripture", is still assertion, in that you assert your quoted Scripture means what you take it to mean and applies how you take it to apply. This is particularly noticeable when you are dogmatic in your interpretation/use of Scripture, and then go on to claim that anyone who opposes what you say, is in effect opposing Scripture.

Satan's lawyer made that same kind of appeal after Jesus quoted Scripture in the Temptation.....

All it does to take your position, is to admit you have no idea what it says.

 

[GeneZ]

You may not realize, that to assert something, then "back it up with Scripture", is still assertion, in that you assert your quoted Scripture means what you take it to mean and applies how you take it to apply. This is particularly noticeable when you are dogmatic in your interpretation/use of Scripture, and then go on to claim that anyone who opposes what you say, is in effect opposing Scripture.

Then its your job to show what the Scripture means, not hide behind the skirt of your excuse you keep giving.

 

[GeneZ]

You'll find whatever accompanies their resurrected bodies.

That question is not completely answered in Scripture.

So, according to you? We are angels now?

Angels are spirits with bodies that can dematerialize.

When we are resurrected we will be souls with bodies that will also be able to dematerialize... just like Jesus did when he walked through walls
to appear before the disciples who locked themselves in that room.

On the evening of that first day of the week, when the disciples were together, ​

with the doors locked for fear of the Jewish leaders, Jesus came and stood among ​

them and said, “Peace be with you!” John 20:19​

................

 

[Eleanor]

So, according to you? We are angels now?

I give up. . .are we?

Angels are spirits with bodies that can dematerialize.

When we are resurrected we will be souls with bodies that will also be able to dematerialize... just like Jesus did when he walked through walls
to appear before the disciples who locked themselves in that room.

On the evening of that first day of the week, when the disciples were together, ​

with the doors locked for fear of the Jewish leaders, Jesus came and stood among ​

them and said, “Peace be with you!” John 20:19​

But no immortal human spirit?

 

[GeneZ]

I give up. . .are we?

But no immortal human spirit?

He handed his human spirit up to the Father while he hung on the Cross just before he breathed his last.

Jesus called out with a loud voice, “Father, into your hands I commit my spirit.” ​

When he had said this, he breathed his last." Luke 23:46​

Since he no longer needed to live like a man any more? Having paid the penalty for our sins as the sinless man?
His human spirit was no longer needed.

He no longer needed to function as a spiritual human man. He was to return to functioning as God.

For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form." Colossians 2:9​

Now that He is the fullness of Deity in bodily form?
Why bother to have a human spirit to store the learned Word of God when He now knows all things?

Jesus is now Deity, Soul, and Glorified body.

 

[Eleanor]

He handed his human spirit up to the Father while he hung on the Cross just before he breathed his last.

All immortal human spirits depart their bodies when their bodies die. Those of the born again go to be with Jesus. The damned go elsewhere, until the resurrection of all the dead for the Final Judgment of the sheep and the goats at the end of time, when all immortal human spirits are re-united with their bodies (have their "tents" again, 2 Co 5:2-3) and sentenced to their eternal destiny.

The immortal spirit of Jesus' humanity likewise departed his body, only to be rejoined with it at his resurrection, the firstfruits of the resurrection of mankind, when all will be rejoined with their immortal spirits.

Jesus called out with a loud voice, “Father, into your hands I commit my spirit.” ​

When he had said this, he breathed his last." Luke 23:46​

Since he no longer needed to live like a man any more? Having paid the penalty for our sins as the sinless man?
His human spirit was no longer needed.
He no longer needed to function as a spiritual human man. He was to return to functioning as God.

For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form." Colossians 2:9​

Jesus is God-man for all eternity, the church being the bride of the incarnate (enfleshed) God.

Now that He is the fullness of Deity in bodily form?
Why bother to have a human spirit to store the learned Word of God when He now knows all things?

For the same reason he has a human body. One is not human without body, soul and immortal human spirit.
One would simply be animal.

This is not orthodox Christianity.

 

[Eleanor]

You know it will be their spirit?
You show us one verse that makes such a claim for the unregenerate in their resurrection before judgment.
Jesus did not call the unbelievers "dead" without reason.
They are spiritually dead... (having no human spirit)
Matthew 8:20-22...

And Jesus said to him, “Foxes have holes, and birds of the air have nests; ​

but the Son of man has nowhere to lay his head.” ​

Another of the disciples said to him, “Lord, let me first go and bury my father.” ​

But Jesus said to him, “Follow me, and leave the dead to bury their own dead.”​

A soul without a human spirit is spiritually dead.

Spiritual death is not death of the immortal human spirit.
It is the absence of God''s divine eternal life within the human spirit, which was lost at the fall.

Rebirth is not rebirth of the immortal human spirit.
It is re-impartation of God's divine eternal life to the immortal human spirit.