Total Depravity Explained Without Reference to the Human Will

[JIM]

Where you are determines the outcome. It’s very simple.
I am now and forever alive in Christ where I once was dead.

I am not sure what your point is with that. You were once dead. Did that determine the outcome?

 

[Alive]

I am not sure what your point is with that. You were once dead. Did that determine the outcome?

What aren’t you sure about. If I know, then perhaps I can give a proper answer.

 

[Mr GLee]

That is not speaking of regeneration, but rather the resurrection at the end of the age and everyone, lost and saved, will be made alive, that is resurrected to their final state.

Its appointed once to the lost to die .Their earthly bodies of death will return the the field of clay.

 

[JIM]

Its appointed once to the lost to die .Their earthly bodies of death will return the the field of clay.

Yes.

 

[Arial]

So then since they do not believe it and believing is integrally tied to the will, then Total Depravity is integrally tied to the will.

Believing has nothing to do with the human will. We do not choose what we believe. We either believe something or we don't. And we cannot will ourselves to believe what we do not believe.

 

[JIM]

Believing has nothing to do with the human will. We do not choose what we believe. We either believe something or we don't. And we cannot will ourselves to believe what we do not believe.

Believing someone of something is based upon how we perceive the information and data concerning that someone or something. It is a conscience decision. It is about "willing" ourselves one way or the other.

 

[Arial]

Believing someone of something is based upon how we perceive the information and data concerning that someone or something. It is a conscience decision. It is about "willing" ourselves one way or the other.

If we believe the data we perceive, it is because we believe it. It has convinced us. We did not will ourselves to believe it. Acting on what we believe is where the will comes in.

 

[Rella]

If we believe the data we perceive, it is because we believe it. It has convinced us. We did not will ourselves to believe it. Acting on what we believe is where the will comes in.

So if believing is caused by an outside force and acting on that belief is the result of outside action... if one does not believe as you do... ARE THEY ALWAYS WRONG?

Just a side question.

Back in the day when the missionaries went hunting the lost "Savages" to evangelize them were they ever successful?

If so is that because the "Savages" had an innate built in whatever so they would believe those missioneries?

Because not all did.... So just wondering

 

[Arial]

So if believing is caused by an outside force and acting on that belief is the result of outside action... if one does not believe as you do... ARE THEY ALWAYS WRONG?

We don't speak to one another that way on the forum. And we don't misrepresent what another says.

Did I ever say believing is caused by an outside force? (And to be clear, the believing being discussed here is not a believing those things that are in salvation, but rather of whether or not we choose to believe anything and that believing is an act of the will.)

 

[Alive]

In an attempt to get this more focused…..
Saving Faith is a unique faith bestowed on the Elect of God by His Grace.
Conflating this with general definitions and any other kind of faith is a confusion.
At best it becomes a pseudo intellectual exercise with little meaning that adds to our understanding and growth in the knowledge of the Riches In Christ.
Dictionaries are great and language facilitates good communication of information.
For Christians, we look beyond all earthly understanding and effort, to what the Spirit reveals to and in us…as His sons. The elect.

 

[Rella]

We don't speak to one another that way on the forum. And we don't misrepresent what another says.

Did I ever say believing is caused by an outside force? (And to be clear, the believing being discussed here is not a believing those things that are in salvation, but rather of whether or not we choose to believe anything and that believing is an act of the will.)

You said

Arial said:
If we believe the data we perceive, it is because we believe it. It has convinced us. We did not will ourselves to believe it. Acting on what we believe is where the will comes in.

My error is calling data an outside force. Was not aware I was speaking one way or another.

I shall part for now as this has gotten very out of hand when one is afraid to say something for fear of offense.

 

[JIM]

If we believe the data we perceive, it is because we believe it.

Your answer is that we believe because we believe. I bit circular don't you think?

It has convinced us.

Thus we have believed what God has said, that is mental assent. And if believing what God said we then place our trust in God and that is assent and trust. Assent together with trust is faith. And that is by free-will choice. If you can't convince yourself that assent is by free will, then surely you can accept that to trust is by free will.

Acting on what we believe is where the will comes in.

Acting on it is really a sense of trusting.

 

[Arial]

Your answer is that we believe because we believe. I bit circular don't you think?

Not at all. Is believing something besides believing. "We believe the data we perceive because we believe it." "Because" in that sentence does not pertain to the reason we believe it.

Thus we have believed what God has said, that is mental assent. And if believing what God said we then place our trust in God and that is assent and trust. Assent together with trust is faith. And that is by free-will choice. If you can't convince yourself that assent is by free will, then surely you can accept that to trust is by free will.

That is not only circular but unreasonable. You are assuming a free-will choice without ever providing evidence of such a thing. You are really saying that we force ourselves to trust and we force ourselves to believe, and we force ourselves to have faith. That in itself would be a not free will. If you believe something then you believe it. That is not an action. Therefore it does not involve the will. When Jesus on many occasions said to "believe" did he ever put the words choose, or decide, in front of them? It is a commandment. The only way to eternal life is if you believe.

Acting on it is really a sense of trusting.

Yes, but that avoids what I said. Acting on what we believes involves the will, but believing does not.

 

[His clay]

@His clay

To further elaborate.

Recently, because of all the assertions of "free" will, I have come to nearly despise the expression. IMO it distracts from actually learning the doctrines of grace in their depth. If one adheres to a concept of "free" will to determine the doctrines of Christ---salvation---- the power and glory and grace and mercy of God in salvation is tamped down.

If one takes the time to read the arguments concerning free will by Pelagias and Augustine---and later what became known as semi-Pelagian, they will see that the arguments of Augustine against these heresies and concerning free will (for so the were declared) was of a different nature and focus than what it has become today.

The will is only free in a sense----that being that man has the God endowed ability to choose between one thing and another. As far as I am concerned, and that is just me, without casting aspersions on others, the human will only does what our desires move it to do. It only and ever can do anything good by the very grace of God. And it is bound by the transgression of Adam to also desire what is evil in the sight of God, and we act on it. Only God can change that in us. And by the very definition of "will", the very word itself, Christ's church would be far better off it never attached "free" to "will", but simply states things according to the relationship between God and mankind since the fall, and our inability to rectify the situation. That is actually what is in the doctrines of grace. They do not concern the will of man, free or otherwise, at all.

And the Bible did just fine without ever discussing the "free" will of man. That has been inserted into it.

While I'm still working on a different project, I can at least present minimal interaction. That is why I asked the questions, and thank you for answering them.

 

[JIM]

Not at all. Is believing something besides believing. "We believe the data we perceive because we believe it." "Because" in that sentence does not pertain to the reason we believe it.

Believing is, or should be, the rational evaluation of the information and data available and deciding, on the basis of that, the truth or lack thereof a given perception. It is definitely a choice.

That is not only circular but unreasonable. You are assuming a free-will choice without ever providing evidence of such a thing. You are really saying that we force ourselves to trust and we force ourselves to believe, and we force ourselves to have faith.

Come on -- I didn't say that. We come to a decision based upon the information and data available whether some perception is true or not. Then we decide whether or not to trust that perception, if true, in the ongoing functioning of our lives. That is assent and trust. Assent is believing; assent and trust is believing in. Believing in is faith.

 

[Mr GLee]

I am not sure what your point is with that. You were once dead. Did that determine the outcome?

That was the appointed outcome die once.

 

[JIM]

That was the appointed outcome die once.

???????

 

[Mr GLee]

???????

We are carrying out the appointment to die once.

 

[JIM]

We are carrying out the appointment to die once.

That wasn't the "dead" that I was referring to.

 

[Arial]

Since total depravity shows that the position of all humanity is a condition that affects every part of him including the choices he makes whether morally good or bad, but in every instance with every human, sometimes morally bad; and since that is the case, mankind can in no way reconcile himself to God; then for any to be reconciled God Himself must do this.. No one deserves or merits reconciliation so if it is to be done it must be done by grace, with no contribution from man himself, as he is incapable of giving any sort of assistance.

So, now we can move on to the other four doctrines of grace and see that in them also, because of man's condition, man's will is never involved. These doctrines are God centric and so the pov will also be God centric.

Unconditional Election.

Because nothing is impossible with God, He could do a number of things---provided they in no way violate who He is. We, from a human perspective could suggest that He could send His Son to atone for everyone's sins. But that would run closely to a form of deism in salvation and the work of Christ on the cross. It would also be universalism.

It would also in a sense, have Jesus dying over and over as new people are born over however many thousands of years between the crucifixion and Christ's return.

Another option might be that He gives enough grace to everyone so that they can contribute to the work that Christ did by believing the gospel and also have the option to reject it even though they believe it. That is one illogical thing about that view.

Looking at it from who God is (God centric), the OP in accordance with the Scriptures, shows that God created everything and is sovereign over all His creation, and man, as well as everything else in creation is subject to Him. There is a verse in Psalm 119 that states it as everything in creation being His servant. In Acts 17:28 we read that in God we live, and move, and have our being. Romans 11:36 tells us "from him and through him, and for him are all things."

Romans 8:29-30 tells us five things that pertain to Unconditional Election. For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of His son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. And those he predestined, he also called; And those He called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

Eph 1:3-6 tells us even more. Blessed Be the God And Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ, Who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in Him' Before the foundation of the world that we should be Holy and blameless before Him. In love he predestined us for adoption to Himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of His will to the praise of His glorious grace, with which he has blessed us In the Beloved.

There is not a thing in either of those passages which tell us that believers are elected (Paul is writing to believers), that pertains to the human will at all. And as the doctrines are God centered, not man centered, we see throughout the Scriptures that God does the electing of persons and nations, from the Seed bearing line, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Israel, Judah, David; the Prophets, everything. So if any are to be redeemed, God must elect those He redeems, and solely on the pleasure of His will. And every choice He makes is by grace alone. If this saving grace is only offered, and offered to everyone, grace becomes not grace and not from God, but dependent on the wisdom of sinful man. A man has become his own sovereign, more powerful than Jesus as He hung on the cross, laying down his life, for the lost and helpless.