Total Depravity Explained Without Reference to the Human Will

[JIM]

Because nothing is impossible with God, He could do a number of things---provided they in no way violate who He is.

Personally, I would posit that God's imputing the sin of one to another, and especially to the unborn, would seriously violate who He is.

 

[Arial]

Personally, I would posit that God's imputing the sin of one to another, and especially to the unborn, would seriously violate who He is.

In what way?

But just to be clear, God does not impute sin to anyone, except to Christ on the cross as the One who substitutes for the sinner as the ransom, and that is our sin. Total depravity doesn't teach that He does. Adam's sin is imputed to us by Adam.

 

[JIM]

Adam's sin is imputed to us by Adam.

And how does that happen?

 

[Arial]

And how does that happen?

Adam became a sinner. A sinner begets sinners. Adam as the first man stood as the representative of all mankind, just as Christ stands as the representative of all who are placed in Him. Through faith, taken out of Adam, placed in Christ.

So---- in what way does the imputation of Adam's sin violate who God is?

 

[JIM]

Adam became a sinner. A sinner begets sinners.

Traducianism? Seriously?

Eze 18:1 The word of the LORD came to me:
Eze 18:2 "What do you mean by repeating this proverb concerning the land of Israel, 'The fathers have eaten sour grapes, and the children's teeth are set on edge'?
Eze 18:3 As I live, declares the Lord GOD, this proverb shall no more be used by you in Israel.
Eze 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; the soul of the father as well as the soul of the son is mine: the soul who sins shall die.

Eze 18:20 The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father, nor the father suffer for the iniquity of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.

Adam as the first man stood as the representative of all mankind, just as Christ stands as the representative of all who are placed in Him. Through faith, taken out of Adam, placed in Christ.

Where do you read that?

So---- in what way does the imputation of Adam's sin violate who God is?

I have not read anywhere that Adam had either the power or the authority to impute anything to anyone. Only God has any such power and authority. Not even Satan can do that.

 

[Arial]

Traducianism? Seriously?

It has nothing to do with traducianism and is nothing like it. And it isn't me, you are arguing with, it is God. Adam became a sinner. He is the head of all mankind. (Have you not noticed the headship motif throughout the Bible?) One man and that man become a sinner. All after him are like him. Babies are not condemned for their sins, they have not yet sinned. But they will, and very early. As soon as they learn the word no, they begin to not honor and obey their parents.

Eze 18:1 The word of the LORD came to me:
Eze 18:2 "What do you mean by repeating this proverb concerning the land of Israel, 'The fathers have eaten sour grapes, and the children's teeth are set on edge'?
Eze 18:3 As I live, declares the Lord GOD, this proverb shall no more be used by you in Israel.
Eze 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; the soul of the father as well as the soul of the son is mine: the soul who sins shall die.

Eze 18:20 The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father, nor the father suffer for the iniquity of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.

Oddly enough, they all sin. We are not condemned for Adam's sin. Original sin does not teach that, Neither does total depravity. We are sinners because of Adam's sin.

Where do you read that?

1 Cor 15:22,45; Acts 17:26; Romans 5:12-14; 1 Cor 15:21-22 all show the federal headship of Adam.

I have not read anywhere that Adam had either the power or the authority to impute anything to anyone. Only God has any such power and authority. Not even Satan can do that.

Adam didn't impute anything to anyone. Are you having trouble with language distinctions and applications? We, being made of the dust as Adam was, became what Adam became. What he became was corrupted and certain to die. Death is the penalty for sin.

 

[JIM]

It has nothing to do with traducianism and is nothing like it. And it isn't me, you are arguing with, it is God. Adam became a sinner. He is the head of all mankind. (Have you not noticed the headship motif throughout the Bible?) One man and that man become a sinner. All after him are like him.

Yes, we are just like him. He sinned and became a sinner. We sinned and became a sinner.

Babies are not condemned for their sins, they have not yet sinned. But they will, and very early. As soon as they learn the word no, they begin to not honor and obey their parents.

You really don't know what sin is. Who told them they couldn't say "no"? Who told them they had to honor and obey their parents?

Oddly enough, they all sin. We are not condemned for Adam's sin. Original sin does not teach that, Neither does total depravity. We are sinners because of Adam's sin.

Why did Adam sin? When you figure that out, then you will know why you were a sinner. And it really has nothing to do with Adam.

1 Cor 15:22,45; Acts 17:26; Romans 5:12-14; 1 Cor 15:21-22 all show the federal headship of Adam.

Not one of those says that we are sinners because Adam sinned. 1 Corinthians 15:21-45 is speaking of physical death and resurrection. Being in Adam is being human and subject to physical death. Physical death was an integral part of the creation. Nothing physical is immortal.

Adam didn't impute anything to anyone.

Sin is imputed. God imputes sin, no one else. We disobey God and it is counted to us as sin.

Are you having trouble with language distinctions and applications? We, being made of the dust as Adam was, became what Adam became. What he became was corrupted and certain to die. Death is the penalty for sin.

Spiritual death is the penalty for sin, not physical death. That was true for Adam and that is true for us. In 1 Corinthians 15:26, for those in Christ, death, the last enemy to be destroyed, is spiritual death. He did not destroy physical death. Everyone, save those still alive when he returns, will die physically. In Christ we will still die physically, but we will not die the second death (Rev 20:6).

 

[Arial]

He sinned and became a sinner. We sinned and became a sinner.

And there is no way a single one of us would not sin is there? Do you suppose it is because we are sinners----a being that sins? And why do you suppose the Bible refers to mankind in relationship to two men: with the word "in": either in Adam or in Christ?

You really don't know what sin is. Who told them they couldn't say "no"? Who told them they had to honor and obey their parents?

Funny you would say that I don't know what sin is and then say what you did. It is God who tells us we are to honor our parents. That does not change because we fell, and it does not change even if we don't know the commandment. Even in the natural ignorance of the law is no excuse ----how much more so the laws of God.

Why did Adam sin? When you figure that out, then you will know why you were a sinner. And it really has nothing to do with Adam.

Oh please enlighten me.

 

[JIM]

And there is no way a single one of us would not sin is there?

Mat 18:3 and said, "Truly, I say to you, unless you turn and become like children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.

Mat 19:14 but Jesus said, "Let the little children come to me and do not hinder them, for to such belongs the kingdom of heaven."

Mar 10:14 But when Jesus saw it, he was indignant and said to them, "Let the children come to me; do not hinder them, for to such belongs the kingdom of God.

Do you really think the kingdom of God belongs to sinners? There are many that, unfortunately, do not live long enough to become sinners.

Do you suppose it is because we are sinners----a being that sins?

Not a being that will sin, but a being who sins, A sinner is one who has sinned.

And why do you suppose the Bible refers to mankind in relationship to two men: with the word "in": either in Adam or in Christ?

Actually one is not really in one or the other. In Adam is simply a human being. Those in Christ is actually a subset of those in Adam. I find it interesting that the actual phrase "in Adam" is only found once. That is in 1 Corinthians 15:22 where is speaks of physically dying. And of course that includes every human being, even those who are in Christ. Some have turned the phrase "in Adam" into something that far exceeds anything that the Bible has actually said about "in Adam". On the contrary, the phrase "in Christ" or "in Jesus" or the equivalent "in Him" or "in whom" is found over 160 times in the NT. I have a fairly detailed article on the meaning of in Christ. I will try to post it following this one.

Funny you would say that I don't know what sin is and then say what you did. It is God who tells us we are to honor our parents. That does not change because we fell, and it does not change even if we don't know the commandment. Even in the natural ignorance of the law is no excuse ----how much more so the laws of God.

Ignorance of the law is not having bothered to become acquainted with the law. Ignorance of the law, does not mean incapable of knowing and understanding the law. Even we do not charge and convict one too young or too mentally infirm to know and comprehend the law.

Oh please enlighten me.

Gen 3:6 So when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was to be desired to make one wise, she took of its fruit and ate, and she also gave some to her husband who was with her, and he ate.

1Jn 2:15 Do not love the world nor the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
1Jn 2:16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh and the lust of the eyes and the boastful pride of life, is not from the Father, but is from the world.
1Jn 3:4 Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness; and sin is lawlessness.

Genesis 3:6 tells us precisely why first Eve and then Adam disobeyed God. I John 2:15-16 establishes the reasons for nearly all the sins of mankind, (1) the lust of the flesh, (2) the lust of the eyes, and (2) the pride of life. 1 John 3:4 defines sin in the simplest terms. All are deliberate choices.

 

[JIM]

​

The following discussion of the meaning of the phrase "in Christ" was copied from an addendum to the commentary on Romans by James Coffman. I find it very interesting.

The redemption that is in Christ ...
The expression "in Christ" is, in some ways, the most important in all the Pauline writings, where this expression, or its equivalent, "in whom," "in him," etc., is used no less than 169 times.

What does it mean to be "in Christ"? It means to be in his spiritual body, called the church, the body of which Christ is the head, of which he is declared to be the Savior, and which means having a spiritual relationship to Christ, a relationship of intimate union and identification with him. Redemption is not in faith, or baptism, or in anything else except being "in Christ." Right here is that device contrived by God himself by which a man might truly and legitimately be justified; and it might be looked upon as a divine corporation.

This writer is indebted to John Mackay, former President of Princeton Theological Seminary, for this concept of a divine corporation. He wrote:

Which God designated to give historical fulfillment to the "plan of the mystery." That organ is a community, the community of the "chosen in Christ," of "the destined in love." In the Epistle of the Ephesians, which is supremely interested in the corporate side of Christianity, "The People of God" occupy a central place. In the Old Testament they formed the "Commonwealth of Israel" in the New Testament the Christian Church, "the Body of Christ."

JESUS CHRIST, INCORPORATED

Inherent in the very fact of Christ's having a spiritual body is the concept of its being extra-literal. What kind of body is it? That it is a community of believers on earth is implicit in the fact that the Corinthians had "by one Spirit" all been baptized "into it" (1 Corinthians 12:13). That, in the last analysis, it includes more than the church is plainly set forth in Ephesians where "every family" in heaven and upon earth are a part of it. All the saved of all ages are in it, because only in Christ has salvation ever been possible for anyone. The wonder of this body is that it is truly spoken of as a person, like any other corporation, being, in fact, a fully legal person; hence the propriety of saying that one is "in Christ."

Christ's absolute righteousness cannot be separated from himself and conferred or imputed to others, true righteousness being non-transferable; but it is possible, thanks to the wise provision of God in forming the corporate "in Christ," for all who will to enter that body, becoming one with Christ, fully identifiable with him, and being in fact "in him." All such then share Christ's righteousness. It is truly theirs. This is what Paul means by "redemption that is in Christ Jesus."

The shares of this corporation are the righteousness of Christ. In Christ is a bank of all the righteousness ever accredited to people. All spiritual blessings are categorically said to be in this corporation, "in Christ" (Ephesians 1:3). This means that there are no spiritual blessings anywhere except in Christ.

Who are those who make up Christ's spiritual body, thus being "in Christ"? The New Testament gives the following clues to their identity:

They are those who have been born again. Christ's spiritual body, also called by Christ "the kingdom," cannot be entered except by the new birth (John 3:3-5). They are those who are the "new" creatures. "If any man be in Christ, he is a new creature" (2 Corinthians 5:17). And, like every other corporation, Jesus Christ, Incorporated, has a seal. Paul wrote to the Ephesians:

In whom (that is, in Christ), having also believed, ye were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise (Ephesians 1:13).

Thus, the members of Jesus Christ, Incorporated, are those who have been sealed with the Holy Spirit. They are also the saved, for the author of Acts declared that

The Lord added to them day by day those that were saved, (or as more accurately in the English Revised Version (1885) margin) those that were being saved (Acts 2:47).

The true members of Jesus Christ, Incorporated, are the saved, the sealed with the Holy Spirit, the new born, the new creatures. In a word, they are baptized believers in Christ. The reception of the Holy Spirit of promise, in the first sermon of the gospel age, was made contingent upon the repentance and baptism of those who believed (Acts 2:38), and Paul's mentioning "of promise" in Eph. 1:13, above, shows that he had that in mind. Baptism is an essential element in the new birth, though not the whole of it; and the "newness of life" which belongs to every person "in Christ" follows his being baptized into Christ (Romans 6:4). There can be no marvel, therefore, at the fact of baptism's being mentioned three times in the New Testament as an act of obedience that results in the believer's having a new status, that of being "in Christ." "Baptized into Christ" is found in Rom. 6:3 and Gal. 3:27; and, in 1 Corinthians, it is written: "For in one Spirit were we all baptized into one body" (12:13).

From these Holy Scriptures, there comes the certain conclusion, then, that faith is not the sum and all of salvation; it was not even so in the case of Christ whose faith and perfect obedience wrought salvation for all; nor can it be supposed that "faith alone," defined by James as "dead" (James 2:17f), can ever avail anything except the eternal disappointment of them that trust in it.

In that all have sinned, a fact Paul was at great labor to prove, there resides the absolute necessity for every man to die as the penalty of sin, that penalty to be understood not merely as mortal but as eternal death; and God's justice will require that every man ever born on earth pay it, unless exempted through being in Christ. Thus, in the final judgment, only those who are truly "in Christ," members of that entity called the spiritual body, or, as here, Jesus Christ, Incorporated, can truly be exempted, and that not upon the basis of their faith alone, but upon the basis that Christ actually died for them, and that they died "in the person of Christ." That is the thrust of Paul's thought that Christians have been "baptized into his death" (Romans 6:3).

Jesus Christ, Incorporated, is the corporation set up through purchase by the blood of Christ (Acts 20:28), the device God had planned before all time, and the mystery hidden before times eternal, and now made "known through the church" (Ephesians 3:10), and called the "mystery of the gospel" (Ephesians 6:19).

These thoughts are offered in the prayerful hope that people may forsake human theories of salvation, that they might believe and be baptized, as Christ commanded, and give glory to God "in the church" as directed by an apostle (Ephesians 3:21).

Like every figure of speech used to convey eternal truth, this one also results in certain distortions, as, for example, above where Christ is spoken of as being alone entitled to salvation. Of course, he was never lost; but the inheritance of the saints is scripturally noted as that which they shall receive as joint-heirs with Christ. Thus, subject to the limitation of all metaphor, this one is conceived of as a vehicle for vital truth, taught abstractly, throughout the New Testament; and, it is hoped, made a little plainer in this comparison.

Thus, only the righteous, the perfect, the truly faithful and obedient shall be saved; and there will be no basis for any man to boast of having anything such as that, because such is not in man; but it is in Christ, and those in Christ may through absolute identification with Christ truly say that they are perfect, etc. That is what Paul meant when he wrote: "That we may present every man perfect in Christ" (Colossians 1:28).

Thus, it will not be an imputed righteousness, procured by the sinner's faith, but a real, actual righteousness wrought by Christ, that can save such a one as sinful man, and then only if he will die to himself and become utterly one with Christ in Christ. As Paul said of himself:

It is no longer I that live, but Christ liveth in me; and that life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me (Galatians 2:20).

Before leaving Rom. 3:24, the seeming paradox of how God's grace is free and at the same time all people do not receive it, should be observed. Paul wrote Titus:

For the grace of God hath appeared, bringing salvation to all men, instructing us to the intent that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly and righteously and godly in this present world (Titus 2:11,12).

From this, it is plain that God's grace having appeared, and salvation having been brought to all people, refer to the availability of that grace and salvation, and not to their being unconditionally bestowed. From the farmer who reaps down his fields to the fishermen off the Grand Banks, all men receive God's gifts conditionally, and never unconditionally. Thus, it is no surprise that God's grace and salvation came "instructing men," with the necessary deduction that rejection of the instructions was automatically rejection of the grace and salvation. Failure to comply with divinely imposed conditions is forfeiture of all benefits conditionally given.

 

[Alive]

​

The following discussion of the meaning of the phrase "in Christ" was copied from an addendum to the commentary on Romans by James Coffman. I find it very interesting.

The redemption that is in Christ ...
The expression "in Christ" is, in some ways, the most important in all the Pauline writings, where this expression, or its equivalent, "in whom," "in him," etc., is used no less than 169 times.

What does it mean to be "in Christ"? It means to be in his spiritual body, called the church, the body of which Christ is the head, of which he is declared to be the Savior, and which means having a spiritual relationship to Christ, a relationship of intimate union and identification with him. Redemption is not in faith, or baptism, or in anything else except being "in Christ." Right here is that device contrived by God himself by which a man might truly and legitimately be justified; and it might be looked upon as a divine corporation.

This writer is indebted to John Mackay, former President of Princeton Theological Seminary, for this concept of a divine corporation. He wrote:

Which God designated to give historical fulfillment to the "plan of the mystery." That organ is a community, the community of the "chosen in Christ," of "the destined in love." In the Epistle of the Ephesians, which is supremely interested in the corporate side of Christianity, "The People of God" occupy a central place. In the Old Testament they formed the "Commonwealth of Israel" in the New Testament the Christian Church, "the Body of Christ."

JESUS CHRIST, INCORPORATED

Inherent in the very fact of Christ's having a spiritual body is the concept of its being extra-literal. What kind of body is it? That it is a community of believers on earth is implicit in the fact that the Corinthians had "by one Spirit" all been baptized "into it" (1 Corinthians 12:13). That, in the last analysis, it includes more than the church is plainly set forth in Ephesians where "every family" in heaven and upon earth are a part of it. All the saved of all ages are in it, because only in Christ has salvation ever been possible for anyone. The wonder of this body is that it is truly spoken of as a person, like any other corporation, being, in fact, a fully legal person; hence the propriety of saying that one is "in Christ."

Christ's absolute righteousness cannot be separated from himself and conferred or imputed to others, true righteousness being non-transferable; but it is possible, thanks to the wise provision of God in forming the corporate "in Christ," for all who will to enter that body, becoming one with Christ, fully identifiable with him, and being in fact "in him." All such then share Christ's righteousness. It is truly theirs. This is what Paul means by "redemption that is in Christ Jesus."

The shares of this corporation are the righteousness of Christ. In Christ is a bank of all the righteousness ever accredited to people. All spiritual blessings are categorically said to be in this corporation, "in Christ" (Ephesians 1:3). This means that there are no spiritual blessings anywhere except in Christ.

Who are those who make up Christ's spiritual body, thus being "in Christ"? The New Testament gives the following clues to their identity:

They are those who have been born again. Christ's spiritual body, also called by Christ "the kingdom," cannot be entered except by the new birth (John 3:3-5). They are those who are the "new" creatures. "If any man be in Christ, he is a new creature" (2 Corinthians 5:17). And, like every other corporation, Jesus Christ, Incorporated, has a seal. Paul wrote to the Ephesians:

In whom (that is, in Christ), having also believed, ye were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise (Ephesians 1:13).

Thus, the members of Jesus Christ, Incorporated, are those who have been sealed with the Holy Spirit. They are also the saved, for the author of Acts declared that

The Lord added to them day by day those that were saved, (or as more accurately in the English Revised Version (1885) margin) those that were being saved (Acts 2:47).

The true members of Jesus Christ, Incorporated, are the saved, the sealed with the Holy Spirit, the new born, the new creatures. In a word, they are baptized believers in Christ. The reception of the Holy Spirit of promise, in the first sermon of the gospel age, was made contingent upon the repentance and baptism of those who believed (Acts 2:38), and Paul's mentioning "of promise" in Eph. 1:13, above, shows that he had that in mind. Baptism is an essential element in the new birth, though not the whole of it; and the "newness of life" which belongs to every person "in Christ" follows his being baptized into Christ (Romans 6:4). There can be no marvel, therefore, at the fact of baptism's being mentioned three times in the New Testament as an act of obedience that results in the believer's having a new status, that of being "in Christ." "Baptized into Christ" is found in Rom. 6:3 and Gal. 3:27; and, in 1 Corinthians, it is written: "For in one Spirit were we all baptized into one body" (12:13).

From these Holy Scriptures, there comes the certain conclusion, then, that faith is not the sum and all of salvation; it was not even so in the case of Christ whose faith and perfect obedience wrought salvation for all; nor can it be supposed that "faith alone," defined by James as "dead" (James 2:17f), can ever avail anything except the eternal disappointment of them that trust in it.

In that all have sinned, a fact Paul was at great labor to prove, there resides the absolute necessity for every man to die as the penalty of sin, that penalty to be understood not merely as mortal but as eternal death; and God's justice will require that every man ever born on earth pay it, unless exempted through being in Christ. Thus, in the final judgment, only those who are truly "in Christ," members of that entity called the spiritual body, or, as here, Jesus Christ, Incorporated, can truly be exempted, and that not upon the basis of their faith alone, but upon the basis that Christ actually died for them, and that they died "in the person of Christ." That is the thrust of Paul's thought that Christians have been "baptized into his death" (Romans 6:3).

Jesus Christ, Incorporated, is the corporation set up through purchase by the blood of Christ (Acts 20:28), the device God had planned before all time, and the mystery hidden before times eternal, and now made "known through the church" (Ephesians 3:10), and called the "mystery of the gospel" (Ephesians 6:19).

These thoughts are offered in the prayerful hope that people may forsake human theories of salvation, that they might believe and be baptized, as Christ commanded, and give glory to God "in the church" as directed by an apostle (Ephesians 3:21).

Like every figure of speech used to convey eternal truth, this one also results in certain distortions, as, for example, above where Christ is spoken of as being alone entitled to salvation. Of course, he was never lost; but the inheritance of the saints is scripturally noted as that which they shall receive as joint-heirs with Christ. Thus, subject to the limitation of all metaphor, this one is conceived of as a vehicle for vital truth, taught abstractly, throughout the New Testament; and, it is hoped, made a little plainer in this comparison.

Thus, only the righteous, the perfect, the truly faithful and obedient shall be saved; and there will be no basis for any man to boast of having anything such as that, because such is not in man; but it is in Christ, and those in Christ may through absolute identification with Christ truly say that they are perfect, etc. That is what Paul meant when he wrote: "That we may present every man perfect in Christ" (Colossians 1:28).

Thus, it will not be an imputed righteousness, procured by the sinner's faith, but a real, actual righteousness wrought by Christ, that can save such a one as sinful man, and then only if he will die to himself and become utterly one with Christ in Christ. As Paul said of himself:

It is no longer I that live, but Christ liveth in me; and that life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me (Galatians 2:20).

Before leaving Rom. 3:24, the seeming paradox of how God's grace is free and at the same time all people do not receive it, should be observed. Paul wrote Titus:

For the grace of God hath appeared, bringing salvation to all men, instructing us to the intent that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly and righteously and godly in this present world (Titus 2:11,12).

From this, it is plain that God's grace having appeared, and salvation having been brought to all people, refer to the availability of that grace and salvation, and not to their being unconditionally bestowed. From the farmer who reaps down his fields to the fishermen off the Grand Banks, all men receive God's gifts conditionally, and never unconditionally. Thus, it is no surprise that God's grace and salvation came "instructing men," with the necessary deduction that rejection of the instructions was automatically rejection of the grace and salvation. Failure to comply with divinely imposed conditions is forfeiture of all benefits conditionally given.

Have a look at ‘Salvation is Relocation’ in my sig. written simply for all to understand.

 

[JIM]

Have a look at ‘Salvation is Relocation’ in my sig. written simply for all to understand.

I just glanced at the first part of it. I will read and study it. I will make one comment here. On the very first page, you made reference to "the main problem" and that being that "Adam’s race of men had fallen and every member of Adam’s race are also fallen. They all each one have a sinful nature. It is inherited. Passed on from one generation to another." You must know that the designation "sinful nature" is not in the Bible. That term is conjured up by the NIV and perhaps other versions and translated/interpreted from the Greek word, sarx, meaning flesh or body. It is a designation for the human being separate from the spirit (or soul). The physical body, the flesh, is of course inherited from the parents. The spirit (or soul) is not. The spirit of man comes from God.

As I said, I will read and study it, but if any of what follows that statement depends upon the theological error of the spirit being inherited it must be rejected.

 

[Josheb]

Total Depravity explained without reference to the human will.

Total Depravity is the first element in the doctrines of grace. These doctrines are an attempt to establish what the grace of grace is--- why it is necessary, how it operates to bring a person to Christ in faith and keeps them in Christ. "For it is by grace you are saved, through faith---and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God---not by works so that no one can boast. For we are God's handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do. (Eph 2:8-10)

These five doctrines of grace are biblically worked out through the full counsel of God on salvation and they deal with each element of salvation...........

A couple of thoughts...

• It is true and correct Total Depravity is much larger than just the human sinner's will and the human sinner's will. I often neglect this point myself. Total Depravity speaks to the thoughts, will, behavior (works), choices (will), motives (will), and goals of the sinfully dead, enslaved, and corrupted.
• It is also true that TULIP is called the doctrines of grace and are thusly named because TULIP is God-centric, not human-centric. Therefore, while "TD" speaks to the human condition, it is 100% correct to couch its explanation in the unreachableness of God and the subsequent necessity of grace alone.
• I'm fairly confident every Christian sees the need and necessity for grace. Synergists simply believe God's grace enables human functions prior to regeneration. Monergism says, even were that true, and it is not, it is irrelevant because the sinful cannot reach the righteous in their own faculty or might. Antithesis cannot obtain Thesis. Ever.
• Rich blessing trying to accomplish that second purpose for the op . 500 years of rigorous dissent have failed to alleviate monergism's opponents from their tendency to base their arguments on a philosophical "free will." Not only is the sinner's will not free, but noting the irrelevancy of appeals to volition and that the effort amounts to a red herring is a great observation. However, I've gotten a lot of pushback even from fellow monergists when I've endeavored to suggest the unregenerate sinner's will is irrelevant prior to regeneration, conversion, or having been brought monergistically by God from death to life.
• The germane aspects of God's nature are His Infinitude and Righteousness. God is infinite and humans are finite, and sin is the antithesis of (infinite) righteousness. Adulterated, rotting volition and/or works can never help the finite reach the infinite or the sinful reach righteousness. This would seem to be axiomatic but, apparently, 500 years of rigorous dissent prove many do not comprehend what should, given God's nature, be self-evident.
• While much in this op is commendable, a third purpose should have been included: To teach TULIP correctly to fellow TULIPers. As is often my practice, I did a little googling before writing this post and I found multiple (pro-monergism) sites overtly couching TD in sin and human inability. Even sites on the doctrines of grace spent unnecessary space on sin and the sinner's inability instead of grace .
• Not all synergists deny TD. Arminius acknowledged TD and still managed to teach synergism (he denied the other doctrines of grace ).

Ima start using some of this stuff .

 

[JIM]

Total Depravity is the first element in the doctrines of grace.

Total Depravity is the first element in your doctrine of grace. There are doctrines of grace that do not include Total Depravity.

 

[Arial]

Total Depravity is the first element in your doctrine of grace. There are doctrines of grace that do not include Total Depravity.

Well, Jim, I am not discussing other doctrines of grace. The OP is about the doctrines of grace in Reformed theology. And specifically to show that they are unrelated to the human will but rather solely to the will of God. Those opposed to the election by God of some to salvation and not all, are the ones who bring the idea of human will and free will at that, into them. The doctrine of Total Depravity is what establishes the need for the grace of God to save any.

If you do not agree that it does, or have a different view of the issue, then put it forth and we can explore it with the scriptures.

 

[Arial]

While much in this op is commendable, a third purpose should have been included: To teach TULIP correctly to fellow TULIPers. As is often my practice, I did a little googling before writing this post and I found multiple (pro-monergism) sites overtly couching TD in sin and human inability. Even sites on the doctrines of grace spent unnecessary space on sin and the sinner's inability instead of grace

Hopefully that is what will happen as we go along through the rest of TULIP. I think that keeping it centered, first on God, and grace (as they are the doctrines of grace) and purposely leaving out any mention of the human will or sin for that matter (though that is what necessitates a redemption.) Hopefully I was able to establish that in the OP and we can move on from it. And just for the record, when I posted the OP, though its focus was on Total Depravity and how that takes any notion of the human will regarding redemption out of the equation from the get go, it was my hope that it would lead into the rest of the acronym to show how exactly this grace floods every aspect of redemption so that there can be nothing but God and the grace of God in all our theology and interpretations.

Since there was no forward movement in that direction, I did the moving myself.

 

[JIM]

Well, Jim, I am not discussing other doctrines of grace. The OP is about the doctrines of grace in Reformed theology.

I understand that. I really do. My point was that grace is not the prerogative of Reformed Theology.

The doctrine of Total Depravity is what establishes the need for the grace of God to save any.

No, that is not true. Books are written on the grace of God in salvation without any consideration of the doctrine of Total Depravity.

If you do not agree that it does, or have a different view of the issue, then put it forth and we can explore it with the scriptures.

The topic was initially on Total Depravity, not the grace of God. Grace is a completely different and separate issue.

 

[JIM]

We can discuss grace if you like, but I certainly do not want to do that confined within any notion of Total Depravity.

 

[Arial]

Actually one is not really in one or the other. In Adam is simply a human being. Those in Christ is actually a subset of those in Adam. I find it interesting that the actual phrase "in Adam" is only found once. That is in 1 Corinthians 15:22 where is speaks of physically dying. And of course that includes every human being, even those who are in Christ. Some have turned the phrase "in Adam" into something that far exceeds anything that the Bible has actually said about "in Adam". On the contrary, the phrase "in Christ" or "in Jesus" or the equivalent "in Him" or "in whom" is found over 160 times in the NT. I have a fairly detailed article on the meaning of in Christ. I will try to post it following this one.

You are using that Scripture to slightly change the subject and not seeing all of what it is saying. Remember that all of the teaching in Scripture is consistent in the truth it teaches. So when it refers to being "in Adam" by saying that it is only speaking of those in Adam dying physically, you are presuming an already held belief into it. You need to show that "in Adam" has no meaning other than that we all die like Adam. That we are all sinners in Adam is just as much a part of theology as is we all die like Adam. They are one and the same thing.

I once, a long time ago, while still believing salvation by choice, read a whole book on what it meant to be in Christ. And I believed it. Now I realize the author had no clue what it meant to be in Christ. That is the beautiful thing about growing in the knowledge of God. He is patient with us.

Ignorance of the law is not having bothered to become acquainted with the law. Ignorance of the law, does not mean incapable of knowing and understanding the law. Even we do not charge and convict one too young or too mentally infirm to know and comprehend the law.

How about you find the point of what I said and discuss that? If you can't find it, let me know and I will try and clarify.

Gen 3:6 So when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was to be desired to make one wise, she took of its fruit and ate, and she also gave some to her husband who was with her, and he ate.

1Jn 2:15 Do not love the world nor the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
1Jn 2:16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh and the lust of the eyes and the boastful pride of life, is not from the Father, but is from the world.
1Jn 3:4 Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness; and sin is lawlessness.

Genesis 3:6 tells us precisely why first Eve and then Adam disobeyed God. I John 2:15-16 establishes the reasons for nearly all the sins of mankind, (1) the lust of the flesh, (2) the lust of the eyes, and (2) the pride of life. 1 John 3:4 defines sin in the simplest terms. All are deliberate choices.

All of that is a given, except the Gen quote is slightly distorted in that it leaves something very important out, and it does not address the issue at hand. Which is the doctrine of Total Depravity. As @Josheb said, try doing so without bringing sin and why people sin into it. It is a doctrine of grace. And it addresses the condition of mankind and why grace is necessary. It is not dealing with why Adam and Eve sinned---only that they did and lost access to the tree of life.

But what is left out in your attempt to say why Adam and Eve sinned, is that though they were created able to die (mortal) they were not created corrupted by anything. They were not created with a nature to sin,(which would be internal) but with the ability to do so (able to be corrupted.) What they lost was access to the tree that would keep them alive---therefore sin entered by one man and through that one man, to all men, and the penalty for sin is death. All sin because of Adam and all die because of Adam, though it is for our own sins that we are judged.

 

[Arial]

I understand that. I really do. My point was that grace is not the prerogative of Reformed Theology.

I know what your point was. It is irrelevant.

No, that is not true. Books are written on the grace of God in salvation without any consideration of the doctrine of Total Depravity.

In which case they can not possibly have a correct understanding of God or man's relationship to Him, or the true condition of humanity, or even the true value and love and power of God in redemption. IOW they would not be God centered but man centered. And redemption is not man centered but God centered. Even if they are truly saved---and certainly not all are----but even if they are, they are missing a wealth of treasure.

The topic was initially on Total Depravity, not the grace of God. Grace is a completely different and separate issue

How can you say that? Maybe you should read the OP again. Total Depravity establishes the need for grace and that only by the grace of God can any be redeemed. Grace is the central issue in all of the TULIP also known as the doctrines of grace in Reformed theology. Does whatever theology you are following, or any other, bother to search out grace and find out why the Bible says by grace we are saved? Does it go to the trouble of following all the issues through in a systematic biblical way in order to find out the truth of the matter and then teach it? Or does it just take grace for granted, reap the benefits, give mental assent to it? Is it something that is not important enough to explore from a God centered view?

Only Reformed theology, and thanks to the work of the diligent reformers, does the work of uncovering the insurpassible work of grace in redemption. The rest cannot stop themselves from inserting their desire for their own free will into everything in the Bible, and that is bound to lead to contradictions and fallacies in interpretation. And right there---out goes the true meaning of grace in redemption. Think about it.