Through one man, sin entered the world.

[Arial]

But I see you neatly avoided answering the rest of my post, even avoiding dealing with the point of the one statement to which you did respond, and even reverted to emotionalism to answer the little bit that you did.

Have you noticed that those who vere off the the main doctrinal statements of traditional Christianity, always post that way? There is a reason for that and I know what it is. I suspect you do too. All we get from them are their positions repeated, a slander against translators and translations, red herrings, deflecting off to a different direction. Nothing presented to them is ever dealt with. Ever.

 

[LeviR]

They are called gods---not God's. And only God is to be worshiped. And yet, for some odd reason (sarcasm) God tells us to worship the Son. You need to take a course in Bible hermeneutics, although common sense handles all those nuances unless it purposely does not want to.

Not always. When a single person is mentioned, he is called God. Like when God made Moses to be as God to pharaoh. Or the Angel of the LORD is called God.
An angel is a messenger, one who is sent. God does not send Himself.

 

[Arial]

Not always. When a single person is mentioned, he is called God. Like when God made Moses to be as God to pharaoh. Or the Angel of the LORD is called God.
An angel is a messenger, one who is sent. God does not send Himself.

Never. When it says God made Moses to be as God it i saying that his voice carried the same authority as though it were God speaking, IOW he was the voice of God to serve God's purposes with Israel as they came out of Egypt and through the wilderness. It is not calling Moses God. UYH. When it says the Angel of the LORD it is a theophany of God. And it never says an angel that is God. UYH. An angel is a messenger. It does not mean one who is sent in Hebrew. Even though they are sent because they are not autonomous but servants of God. God does not send himself but we see him coming as a theophany often in Scripture. Interesting we do not see theophanies in the NT. That is because he was here in the incarnate Christ.

 

[LeviR]

Never. When it says God made Moses to be as God it i saying that his voice carried the same authority as though it were God speaking, IOW he was the voice of God to serve God's purposes with Israel as they came out of Egypt and through the wilderness. It is not calling Moses God. UYH. When it says the Angel of the LORD it is a theophany of God. And it never says an angel that is God. UYH. An angel is a messenger. It does not mean one who is sent in Hebrew. Even though they are sent because they are not autonomous but servants of God. God does not send himself but we see him coming as a theophany often in Scripture. Interesting we do not see theophanies in the NT. That is because he was here in the incarnate Christ.

Theophany is another invented idea of the RCC. There are many.
They say the angel was a theophany because they can’t accept the FACT that it’s an angel, a messenger of the LORD.

 

[LeviR]

Did God say to Moses, “I’m sending Myself as a theophany before you to lead you in the way”?

Nope. What did He say?

“I’m sending My angel(messenger) before you to lead you in the way”

They can’t accept truth so they make up their own words and ideas and add them to the text. That’s a no-no.

 

[Ladodgers6]

Where was Jesus led by the Spirit to be tempted by the devil?

The wilderness, where the wild beasts are. Mark 1:13

Is that the same wilderness John had come preaching?

Mat 3:1 - In those days John the Baptist came preaching in the wilderness of Judea,

Yes.

Was John preaching to Satan and the wild beasts?

Yes, if you understand who Satan and the wild beasts refers

Wasn't John preaching in the wilderness of the Promised Paschal Lamb?

 

[JIM]

You apparently consider this life to be an end in itself. It is not. It is for God's purposes in producing that end result that he spoke into fact before the foundation of the world, by means that are not always fun and nice. So, yes, Hitler and the Holocaust and possibly even worse things, are by God's decree and design.

Do you think that Israel's slaughter of whole city-nations, to include women, children and even livestock, was not by God's design, when it was even by God's command? Did you not know that what Cyrus did to Israel was by means of Cyrus operating expressly God's tool for the very purpose of doing that to Israel?

Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am being tempted by God,” for God cannot be tempted with evil, and he himself tempts no one. But each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire. Then desire when it has conceived gives birth to sin, and sin when it is fully grown brings forth death. (James 1:13–15)

I think you need to do some studying to resolve your obvious internal conflict about God's being the source or author of evil. I have been reprimanded for posting off-topic to an OP, so I will not pursue this further.

 

[LeviR]

Wasn't John preaching in the wilderness of the Promised Paschal Lamb?

He was preaching in the wilderness of snakes and vipers and roaring lions and trees that bare no good fruit.

 

[Arial]

Theophany is another invented idea of the RCC. There are many.
They say the angel was a theophany because they can’t accept the FACT that it’s an angel, a messenger of the LORD.

Really? The RCC invented theophany? Where is your evidence?

Theophany is a word that has a definition. Would you say the burning bush was an angel or a theophany? Or was it just a talking bush?

How about Gen 18? 1-3 And the LORD appeared to him by the oaks of Mamre, as he sat the door of his tent in the heat of the day. He lifted up his eyes and looked, and behold, three men were standing in front of him. When he saw them, he ran from the tent door to meet them and bowed himself to the earth and said, "O Lord, if I have found favor in your sight, do not pass by your servant. 10.The LORD said "I will surely return to you about this time next year, and Sarah your wife shall have a son."
the·oph·a·ny thē-ˈä-fə-nē

plural theophanies
: a visible manifestation of a deity
There is a curious thing there worthy of taking note. There are three men, never called angels, addressed as one. LORD and also Lord. Might that be a theophany of God as triune? Just something that occurred to me. If it was, it put all they nay sayers who claim the Israelites never believed in a triune God to flight.
Abraham did not have a bit of confusion about addressing the three as one and he called them LORD.

 

[Arial]

Did God say to Moses, “I’m sending Myself as a theophany before you to lead you in the way”?

Nope. What did He say?

“I’m sending My angel(messenger) before you to lead you in the way”

They can’t accept truth so they make up their own words and ideas and add them to the text. That’s a no-no.

Interesting that you would make an accusation about adding to the text and then completely alter the text.

This is the text:
NIV See, I am sending an angel ahead of you to guard you along the way and to bring you to the place I have prepared.

ESV Behold I send an angel before you to guard you on the way and to bring you to the place I have prepared.

NASB Behold, I am going to send an angel before you to guard you along the way and to bring you into the place which I have prepared.

So the angel you speak of was not a messenger but a protector. And the one leading them was the LORD. Gen 13:211 By day the LORD went ahead of them in a pillar of cloud to guide them on their way and by night in a pillar of fire to gie temn light so they could travel by day or night.

Hmmm. Fits the definition of a theophany.

 

[LeviR]

Really? The RCC invented theophany? Where is your evidence?

Theophany is a word that has a definition. Would you say the burning bush was an angel or a theophany? Or was it just a talking bush?

How about Gen 18? 1-3 And the LORD appeared to him by the oaks of Mamre, as he sat the door of his tent in the heat of the day. He lifted up his eyes and looked, and behold, three men were standing in front of him. When he saw them, he ran from the tent door to meet them and bowed himself to the earth and said, "O Lord, if I have found favor in your sight, do not pass by your servant. 10.The LORD said "I will surely return to you about this time next year, and Sarah your wife shall have a son."
the·oph·a·ny thē-ˈä-fə-nē

plural theophanies
: a visible manifestation of a deity
There is a curious thing there worthy of taking note. There are three men, never called angels, addressed as one. LORD and also Lord. Might that be a theophany of God as triune? Just something that occurred to me. If it was, it put all they nay sayers who claim the Israelites never believed in a triune God to flight.
Abraham did not have a bit of confusion about addressing the three as one and he called them LORD.

The text says the angel appeared in the midst of the bush. I believe it. The angel was there in the bush speaking to Moses. I believe it. Why not?

Angels are workers of God. They do His will and follow His commands. They are sent. They travel around the earth and heaven working the work of God.
The angel of the Lord is a particular angel sent from God to represent God on earth.
Angel = messenger, representative, envoy, worker.

Seems some can’t grasp the idea that the angel could be referred to as God and LORD unless he is the one true God. I believe different.
Simply because he is sent and does not send himself.

It’s said that Jesus will come with the authority of the archangel. This archangel had the same authority that Jesus now has and who will come with that authority. The authority is God’s authority.

So, I don’t need to make up something the scripture never even mentions at all.
But the RCC has done this many times. They add their own ideas to scripture. I don’t find the need.

 

[LeviR]

Interesting that you would make an accusation about adding to the text and then completely alter the text.

This is the text:
NIV See, I am sending an angel ahead of you to guard you along the way and to bring you to the place I have prepared.

ESV Behold I send an angel before you to guard you on the way and to bring you to the place I have prepared.

NASB Behold, I am going to send an angel before you to guard you along the way and to bring you into the place which I have prepared.

So the angel you speak of was not a messenger but a protector. And the one leading them was the LORD. Gen 13:211 By day the LORD went ahead of them in a pillar of cloud to guide them on their way and by night in a pillar of fire to gie temn light so they could travel by day or night.

Hmmm. Fits the definition of a theophany.

The One sending the angel was God. God is not sending Himself but an angel.
Some think the text says, behold I am sending Myself ahead of you….
That’s not right.

 

[LeviR]

He was preaching in the wilderness of snakes and vipers and roaring lions and trees that bare no good fruit.

Like Adam, Jesus was tempted by the snakes and trees baring no good fruit.
He went among those who were of the world. Those serving their own desires. Their own eyes, flesh and pride.
Among the children of disobedience. The seed of the serpent.
His goal was to turn them from their evil ways and become children of God instead.

 

[Arial]

The One sending the angel was God. God is not sending Himself but an angel.
Some think the text says, behold I am sending Myself ahead of you….
That’s not right.

You are ignoring the fact that I proved you completely adulterated the text in order to stick to your guns.

But FYI, no one thinks the text say behold I am sending myself ahead of you. The angel in the passage you corrupt is not said to be going ahead of the Israelites but is said to be there as a guard. It is the LORD in an entirely different passage (Ex 13:21) who went ahead of them as a pillar of cloud in the daytime and pillar of fire at night. And the LORD went before them by day in a pillar of cloud to lead them along the way, and at night in a pillar of fire to give them light,, that they might travel by day and by night.

The angel you speak of, the passage you quoted is Ex 23:20. You conflating two scriptures and calling them the same scripture. But the debate was not about angels Levi---stop deflecting. It was about you claim that theophanies of God and of Christ is made up by the RCC and do not exist in the Scripture. That is the claim I am refuting and that I refuted in post #410. Deal with that please.

 

[LeviR]

Interesting that you would make an accusation about adding to the text and then completely alter the text.

This is the text:
NIV See, I am sending an angel ahead of you to guard you along the way and to bring you to the place I have prepared.

ESV Behold I send an angel before you to guard you on the way and to bring you to the place I have prepared.

NASB Behold, I am going to send an angel before you to guard you along the way and to bring you into the place which I have prepared.

So the angel you speak of was not a messenger but a protector. And the one leading them was the LORD. Gen 13:211 By day the LORD went ahead of them in a pillar of cloud to guide them on their way and by night in a pillar of fire to gie temn light so they could travel by day or night.

Hmmm. Fits the definition of a theophany.

I was paraphrasing to make my point that God doesn’t send Himself. Rather, He sends the angel as Himself, to do the work He is doing.

Exo 23:20 - Behold, I send an Angel before thee, to keep thee in the way, and to bring thee into the place which I have prepared.

Exo 23:23 - For mine Angel shall go before thee, and bring thee in unto the Amorites, and the Hittites, and the Perizzites, and the Canaanites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites: and I will cut them off.

Exo 33:2 - And I will send an angel before thee; and I will drive out the Canaanite, the Amorite, and the Hittite, and the Perizzite, the Hivite, and the Jebusite:

Exo 33:3
Unto a land flowing with milk and honey: for I will not go up in the midst of thee; for thou art a stiffnecked people: lest I consume thee in the way.

Exo 32:34 - Therefore now go, lead the people unto the place of which I have spoken unto thee: behold, mine Angel shall go before thee: nevertheless in the day when I visit I will visit their sin upon them.

God was sending His angel to bring the people into the land. God Himself was not going because He would consume them in the way because of their stiffnecks.

Do you see that? God sends His angel and says that it is He Himself (God) doing the work. But He didn’t go Himself, He sent an angel to do HIS work. Therefore the work the angel did was the work God was doing through the angel.

 

[Arial]

The text says the angel appeared in the midst of the bush. I believe it. The angel was there in the bush speaking to Moses. I believe it. Why not?

It also says it was the Lord who spoke to him out of the bush. And it does not say the angel or an angel, but the angel of the Lord.Which simply means messenger according to Strong's lexicon. However, the subject at the moment is about the existence of theophanies. And if God spoke out of that burning bush, that bush was a theophany---a physical manifestation of God.

The angel was there in the bush speaking to Moses.

God was speaking to Moses in the bush, Ex 3:4 When the Lord saw that he turned aside to see,, God called to him out of the bush, "Moses, Moses!"

Angels are workers of God. They do His will and follow His commands. They are sent. They travel around the earth and heaven working the work of God.
The angel of the Lord is a particular angel sent from God to represent God on earth.
Angel = messenger, representative, envoy, worker.

When did the conversation deflect from theophany to angels? And why?

Seems some can’t grasp the idea that the angel could be referred to as God and LORD unless he is the one true God. I believe different.
Simply because he is sent and does not send himself.

No one is referring to an angel as God. This sort of thing that amounts to misrepresenting posters, wouldn't happen if you would stay on track and stop deflecting all over the place.

It’s said that Jesus will come with the authority of the archangel. This archangel had the same authority that Jesus now has and who will come with that authority. The authority is God’s authority.

More red herrings.

So, I don’t need to make up something the scripture never even mentions at all.
But the RCC has done this many times. They add their own ideas to scripture. I don’t find the need.

Are you still talking about angels or are you now back to theophanies. If you are, I refer you back to the illustration of theophanies I have already given. The burning bush and Abraham's encounter with the Lord at Mamre. This time stick to theophany---you have already done the angel thing. And deal with what was given and it would also be great if you would at least acknowledge your corruption of a text that I pointed out. (Since you have inserted the idea of people making stuff up.)

 

[Arial]

I was paraphrasing to make my point that God doesn’t send Himself.

Well, it wasn't an accurate paraphrase of any scripture. It is also a straw man as never was anything presented that indicated I (or anyone) thinks God is sending himself when he sends as angel.

I was paraphrasing to make my point that God doesn’t send Himself. Rather, He sends the angel as Himself, to do the work He is doing.

Exo 23:20 - Behold, I send an Angel before thee, to keep thee in the way, and to bring thee into the place which I have prepared.

Exo 23:23 - For mine Angel shall go before thee, and bring thee in unto the Amorites, and the Hittites, and the Perizzites, and the Canaanites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites: and I will cut them off.

Exo 33:2 - And I will send an angel before thee; and I will drive out the Canaanite, the Amorite, and the Hittite, and the Perizzite, the Hivite, and the Jebusite:

Exo 33:3
Unto a land flowing with milk and honey: for I will not go up in the midst of thee; for thou art a stiffnecked people: lest I consume thee in the way.

Exo 32:34 - Therefore now go, lead the people unto the place of which I have spoken unto thee: behold, mine Angel shall go before thee: nevertheless in the day when I visit I will visit their sin upon them.

God was sending His angel to bring the people into the land. God Himself was not going because He would consume them in the way because of their stiffnecks.

Do you see that? God sends His angel and says that it is He Himself (God) doing the work. But He didn’t go Himself, He sent an angel to do HIS work.

Do you really think God stayed behind? Learn context. Learn who God is.

 

[LeviR]

Angels = messengers, workers, representatives.

Suppose I own a company with many workers. I call one of my workers and tell them to drive Mr. Smith to the airport.
I might say something like this, “I’m sending you to drive Mr. Smith to the airport because I’m taking him to the meeting in NYC.”

The employee would know that he was doing the work of driving but it was his employer who was actually sending and bringing Mr. Smith to the meeting.

This is how God works. He uses angels and men to do His work of bringing about His purposes. That way He doesn’t go Himself because they wouldn’t live long enough to get where they’re going. He’d consume them quickly.

This is why God did not allow Moses to see His face. And why no man has ever seen God. The One true God.

 

[makesends]

Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am being tempted by God,” for God cannot be tempted with evil, and he himself tempts no one. But each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire. Then desire when it has conceived gives birth to sin, and sin when it is fully grown brings forth death. (James 1:13–15)

I think you need to do some studying to resolve your obvious internal conflict about God's being the source or author of evil. I have been reprimanded for posting off-topic to an OP, so I will not pursue this further.

(I'm glad that what you think is so often off-target that I can pretty much ignore your posts, until they are SO far off that I feel compelled to answer. That "obvious internal conflict" is all in your head. I can't help but wonder about your resolution of that post by @Arial concerning who predestined Jesus' crucifixion. You didn't even bother to equivocate over how God can command awful slaughter, sadness and suffering, to answer what I wrote. You simply did not answer it. Instead, per your usual method, you reverted to "Logic weak here; raise voice and pound the pulpit." bold Italics, (Ha! I can almost hear your response now: "How can you say that scripture is logically weak?") and then there was your usual ad-hominous condescension.)

But, so that you don't accuse me here of failing to answer your point, God causing that there be sin in no way implies that God is tempting anyone.

And just in case you meant the James 1 quote to deal with the OP: The fact, (in opposition to the notion of God tempting them), that each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire does not invalidate the notion of 'original sin'. In fact, it would seem to agree with it. Some translations render what you quoted as "desire", by "evil desire". The Greek word there contextually implies excess, and can mean "inordinate desire". If man's desire produces temptation and temptation produces sin, one has to wonder how one's desire became inordinate. The answer isn't hard to come by.

CS Lewis in his space trilogy novel, Perelandra, dealt with the notion of excess desire in Eden, by way of describing the protagonist's wanderings in a Paradise environment. Everything there was so good and so right that it would seem obscene to take more than what was sufficient. I rather imagine he was right.

 

[LeviR]

Gen 2:2 - And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.

Gen 2:3 - And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

Work:

מְלָאכָה mᵉlâʼkâh, mel-aw-kaw'; from the same as H4397; properly, deputyship

Angel: H4397

מֲלְאָךְ mălʼâk, mal-awk'; from an unused root meaning to despatch as a deputy; a messenger; specifically, of God, i.e. an angel (also a prophet, priest or teacher):—ambassador, angel, king, messenger.

The work God did in His creation was a deputyship of an angel


Deputyship:

person appointed as a substitute with power to act. b. : a second in command or assistant who usually takes charge when his or her superior is absent.