Through one man, sin entered the world.

[JIM]

But, so that you don't accuse me here of failing to answer your point, God causing that there be sin in no way implies that God is tempting anyone.

God didn't cause there to be sin. He gave man the choice and they have, like you and I, chosen wrongly sometimes.

 

[makesends]

God didn't cause there to be sin. He gave man the choice and they have, like you and I, chosen wrongly sometimes.

Logically: God created; no fact (except God) exists by itself, but, rather, all facts are fact because God created. Thus, God caused that every fact in his creation is what it is. This does not imply that God is the author of sin, but only that God caused that there be sin. It was not a mistake on his part, but is a mistake on our part.

 

[Arial]

Gen 2:2 - And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.

Gen 2:3 - And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

Work:

מְלָאכָה mᵉlâʼkâh, mel-aw-kaw'; from the same as H4397; properly, deputyship

Angel: H4397

מֲלְאָךְ mălʼâk, mal-awk'; from an unused root meaning to despatch as a deputy; a messenger; specifically, of God, i.e. an angel (also a prophet, priest or teacher):—ambassador, angel, king, messenger.

The work God did in His creation was a deputyship of an angel


Deputyship:

person appointed as a substitute with power to act. b. : a second in command or assistant who usually takes charge when his or her superior is absent.

Do JW's have an inordinate (nice word @makesends, one I know but don't know I have ever bothered to use) obsession with angels?

 

[Arial]

Angels = messengers, workers, representatives.

Suppose I own a company with many workers. I call one of my workers and tell them to drive Mr. Smith to the airport.
I might say something like this, “I’m sending you to drive Mr. Smith to the airport because I’m taking him to the meeting in NYC.”

The employee would know that he was doing the work of driving but it was his employer who was actually sending and bringing Mr. Smith to the meeting.

This is how God works. He uses angels and men to do His work of bringing about His purposes. That way He doesn’t go Himself because they wouldn’t live long enough to get where they’re going. He’d consume them quickly.

This is why God did not allow Moses to see His face. And why no man has ever seen God. The One true God.

I will ask you this. Are there theophanies of God in the Bible? Why are we still talking about angels when I never was talking about angels?

 

[Arial]

I was paraphrasing to make my point that God doesn’t send Himself. Rather, He sends the angel as Himself, to do the work He is doing.

Exo 23:20 - Behold, I send an Angel before thee, to keep thee in the way, and to bring thee into the place which I have prepared.

Exo 23:23 - For mine Angel shall go before thee, and bring thee in unto the Amorites, and the Hittites, and the Perizzites, and the Canaanites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites: and I will cut them off.

Exo 33:2 - And I will send an angel before thee; and I will drive out the Canaanite, the Amorite, and the Hittite, and the Perizzite, the Hivite, and the Jebusite:

Exo 33:3
Unto a land flowing with milk and honey: for I will not go up in the midst of thee; for thou art a stiffnecked people: lest I consume thee in the way.

Exo 32:34 - Therefore now go, lead the people unto the place of which I have spoken unto thee: behold, mine Angel shall go before thee: nevertheless in the day when I visit I will visit their sin upon them.

God was sending His angel to bring the people into the land. God Himself was not going because He would consume them in the way because of their stiffnecks.

Do you see that? God sends His angel and says that it is He Himself (God) doing the work. But He didn’t go Himself, He sent an angel to do HIS work. Therefore the work the angel did was the work God was doing through the angel.

The topic of theophanies came up and you claimed that was just a word the RCC made up. So I showed you that was not the case. So why are you talking about angels and have been ever since, and have not even dealt with the theophanies I showed you?

 

[LeviR]

The topic of theophanies came up and you claimed that was just a word the RCC made up. So I showed you that was not the case. So why are you talking about angels and have been ever since, and have not even dealt with the theophanies I showed you?

where is theophany in the scripture?
It’s not because it’s an invented word.
People who don’t speak according to the words of scripture have made up ideas.

 

[LeviR]

I will ask you this. Are there theophanies of God in the Bible? Why are we still talking about angels when I never was talking about angels?

Theophany is a made up idea based on having wrong ideas. If you get the right idea you won’t need to make up your own ideas.

 

[makesends]

Do JW's have an inordinate (nice word @makesends, one I know but don't know I have ever bothered to use) obsession with angels?

Now that you mention it....

 

[LeviR]

Do JW's have an inordinate (nice word @makesends, one I know but don't know I have ever bothered to use) obsession with angels?

What I know about the JW is they believe in false gods.

 

[Arial]

What I know about the JW is they believe in false gods.

My apologies. I thought you had at one time said you were JW.

 

[Arial]

Theophany is a made up idea based on having wrong ideas. If you get the right idea you won’t need to make up your own ideas.

Theophany is a word that has a definition. Would you say the burning bush was an angel or a theophany? Or was it just a talking bush?

How about Gen 18? 1-3 And the LORD appeared to him by the oaks of Mamre, as he sat the door of his tent in the heat of the day. He lifted up his eyes and looked, and behold, three men were standing in front of him. When he saw them, he ran from the tent door to meet them and bowed himself to the earth and said, "O Lord, if I have found favor in your sight, do not pass by your servant. 10.The LORD said "I will surely return to you about this time next year, and Sarah your wife shall have a son."
the·oph·a·ny thē-ˈä-fə-nē

plural theophanies
: a visible manifestation of a deity

 

[Arial]

where is theophany in the scripture?
It’s not because it’s an invented word.
People who don’t speak according to the words of scripture have made up ideas.

Wait a sec. Is every word that isn't in the Bible an invented word? Why do we even bother with dictionaries? All words are made up. They do not fall out of the sky fully formed. They are used to describe and depict things and ideas. The word theology doesn't exist in the Bible either. Or any of the ologies that make up the various Christian doctrines. UYH.

The etymology of theophany


"an actual appearance of God or a god to man," 1630s, from Late Latin theophania, from Greek theos "god" (from PIE root *dhes-, forming words for religious concepts) + phainein "bring to light, cause to appear, show" (from PIE root *bha- (1) "to shine"). In Middle English, "the festival celebrating Epiphany" (late 12c.). Ancient Greek Theophaneia was the name of a festival at Delphi during which the statues of Apollo and other gods were displayed to the public. Related: Theophanic.

So who were the three men that appeared to Abraham and who Abraham addressed as LORD, at Mamre?

What was the burning bush from which the Lord spoke to Moses?

 

[LeviR]

Wait a sec. Is every word that isn't in the Bible an invented word? Why do we even bother with dictionaries? All words are made up. They do not fall out of the sky fully formed. They are used to describe and depict things and ideas. The word theology doesn't exist in the Bible either. Or any of the ologies that make up the various Christian doctrines. UYH.

The etymology of theophany


"an actual appearance of God or a god to man," 1630s, from Late Latin theophania, from Greek theos "god" (from PIE root *dhes-, forming words for religious concepts) + phainein "bring to light, cause to appear, show" (from PIE root *bha- (1) "to shine"). In Middle English, "the festival celebrating Epiphany" (late 12c.). Ancient Greek Theophaneia was the name of a festival at Delphi during which the statues of Apollo and other gods were displayed to the public. Related: Theophanic.

So who were the three men that appeared to Abraham and who Abraham addressed as LORD, at Mamre?

What was the burning bush from which the Lord spoke to Moses?

No one is trying to add the word theology into the Scripture. But people are trying to add theophany into the scripture.
Theology simply means the study of God.
Theophany is actually adding an idea into scripture.

There has never been an actual face to face appearance of the one true God to the people of scripture . He descended upon the Mount when He delivered His laws to the people, but they were forbidden to approach the Mount. No one has ever seen his face, nor can they. They’d be consumed instantly.
But the resurrected ones will see Him. As Jesus says, “They shall see God”.

One of the three men was called LORD, he was the angel of the LORD. The other two were other angels.
There is no appearing of the God who can’t be seen. Because that God is the one true God who no man has seen His face.

The burning bush was where the angel spoke to Moses as God.

 

[LeviR]

My apologies. I thought you had at one time said you were JW.

Np.
I don’t believe in false gods. They shouldn’t either..
It’s a long standing human tradition of both Jew and Gentile.

 

[LeviR]

@Arial
I know you mentioned something about worship of angels and that the angels in the O.T. Were bowed down to.
It seems some are suggesting that the angel had to be God because he was worshipped.
However, there is a distinction between the worship God requires and the idea of bowing down to a Lord.

 

[Arial]

@Arial
I know you mentioned something about worship of angels and that the angels in the O.T. Were bowed down to.
It seems some are suggesting that the angel had to be God because he was worshipped.
However, there is a distinction between the worship God requires and the idea of bowing down to a Lord.

I never mentioned worshiping angels. What is this post in regards to?

I never suggested that the angel had to be God because he was worshiped and anymore of this garbage that attributes to me something I never said and it will just be deleted and a warning issued. It is atrocious to do things like that. Angels themselves forbid people bowing down to them so that wipes out your theory that there is a difference in types of worship. Also, Jesus is no A Lord. He is the Lord. The Bible never calls him a lord (small "l") but the Lord.

Do you think Jesus was pre-existent as God?
Do you think he was created and is a created man and he became divine?
Do you think angels are divine?
Do you have a strong focus on angels?

 

[Arial]

No one is trying to add the word theology into the Scripture. But people are trying to add theophany into the scripture.
Theology simply means the study of God.
Theophany is actually adding an idea into scripture.

It is describing something in the Bible. It is not adding an idea. They are not adding throphany into the scripture, that is simply what it is. It goes like this:

Someone is reading about Moses and the burning bush. The account says God spoke to Moses from the bush. The bush burned but was not consumed by the fire. They ask, what is the burning bush all about? The answer is it is a physical, visible, manifestation of the presence of the invisible God. Now look up the definition of theophany. And stop being so stubborn and argumentative.

 

[LeviR]

I never mentioned worshiping angels. What is this post in regards to?

I never suggested that the angel had to be God because he was worshiped and anymore of this garbage that attributes to me something I never said and it will just be deleted and a warning issued. It is atrocious to do things like that. Angels themselves forbid people bowing down to them so that wipes out your theory that there is a difference in types of worship. Also, Jesus is no A Lord. He is the Lord. The Bible never calls him a lord (small "l") but the Lord.

Do you think Jesus was pre-existent as God?
Do you think he was created and is a created man and he became divine?
Do you think angels are divine?
Do you have a strong focus on angels?

It may not have been you, I’ll have to go back to the post where I read the thing about worship. My apologies if it wasn’t you or I misunderstood.

Psa 110:1 - [[A Psalm of David.]] The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand until I make thine enemies thy footstool.

The second Lord refers also to men.

I think it’s important to understand that the angel of the LORD held the position of representing God to man. Which is what “angel” means. That angel held a position above all the other angels.
It therefore gives us a better idea of the position of Jesus, as he has been exalted above all those angels.

 

[LeviR]

It is describing something in the Bible. It is not adding an idea. They are not adding throphany into the scripture, that is simply what it is. It goes like this:

Someone is reading about Moses and the burning bush. The account says God spoke to Moses from the bush. The bush burned but was not consumed by the fire. They ask, what is the burning bush all about? The answer is it is a physical, visible, manifestation of the presence of the invisible God. Now look up the definition of theophany. And stop being so stubborn and argumentative.

You’re missing the part about the angel appearing in the midst of the bush. I’d say that’s a most important thing NOT to be missed.

Theophany is nothing more than an idea you’ve accepted.

I’ll just stick to what the text says. That’s what I’ve accepted

 

[Arial]

There has never been an actual face to face appearance of the one true God to the people of scripture . He descended upon the Mount when He delivered His laws to the people, but they were forbidden to approach the Mount. No one has ever seen his face, nor can they. They’d be consumed instantly.

A theophany is not a face to face appearance of God. And I never said it was. Someone has said it as being God wearing a protective shield. A theophany by definition is a manifestation of God, but it is still God. Jesus himself, in a sense, was a theophany. "If you have seen me, you have seen my Father." Those are not idle of spiritualized words.

One of the three men was called LORD, he was the angel of the LORD. The other two were other angels.
There is no appearing of the God who can’t be seen. Because that God is the one true God who no man has seen His face.

Abraham called him LORD because he was LORD. Yes the angel of the Lord refers to God himself, as opposed to just angel, like I said at the very beginning. But that does not mean that it was an angel and not the LORD. Hebrew is complex, and it gets even more complex when it is translated into the very complex language of Greek. Much of those nuances and complexities simply do not have English counterparts. So if Abraham called him LORD, then LORD is who he was. And also yes, the next chapter says the two that went ahead were angels. But they all came as men. And that passage does not mention angel of the LORD.

The burning bush was where the angel spoke to Moses as God.

Now you are adding to scripture. It says the angel spoke first from the bush, it does not say what the angel said. But when Moses turned aside to the bush, it says God spoke to him from the bush. And the words that are recorded are God speaking. You made an assumption and then put it into the scripture.