Through one man, sin entered the world.

[Arial]

You’re missing the part about the angel appearing in the midst of the bush. I’d say that’s a most important thing NOT to be missed.

Theophany is nothing more than an idea you’ve accepted.

I’ll just stick to what the text says. That’s what I’ve accepted

I missed nothing. Enough of the obsession with angels.

It is describing something in the Bible. It is not adding an idea. They are not adding throphany into the scripture, that is simply what it is. It goes like this:

Someone is reading about Moses and the burning bush. The account says God spoke to Moses from the bush. The bush burned but was not consumed by the fire. They ask, what is the burning bush all about? The answer is it is a physical, visible, manifestation of the presence of the invisible God. Now look up the definition of theophany. And stop being so stubborn and argumentative.

 

[LeviR]

A theophany is not a face to face appearance of God. And I never said it was. Someone has said it as being God wearing a protective shield. A theophany by definition is a manifestation of God, but it is still God. Jesus himself, in a sense, was a theophany. "If you have seen me, you have seen my Father." Those are not idle of spiritualized words.

Abraham called him LORD because he was LORD. Yes the angel of the Lord refers to God himself, as opposed to just angel, like I said at the very beginning. But that does not mean that it was an angel and not the LORD. Hebrew is complex, and it gets even more complex when it is translated into the very complex language of Greek. Much of those nuances and complexities simply do not have English counterparts. So if Abraham called him LORD, then LORD is who he was. And also yes, the next chapter says the two that went ahead were angels. But they all came as men. And that passage does not mention angel of the LORD.


Now you are adding to scripture. It says the angel spoke first from the bush, it does not say what the angel said. But when Moses turned aside to the bush, it says God spoke to him from the bush. And the words that are recorded are God speaking. You made an assumption and then put it into the scripture.

Are you saying the angel of the LORD was not an angel?

He was God’s Deputy. Look it up.

The Deputy of the LORD appeared in the midst of the bush and spoke God’s words as God Himself.

Like when sheriff Taylor was away he made Barney the top dog.

 

[Ladodgers6]

He was preaching in the wilderness of snakes and vipers and roaring lions and trees that bare no good fruit.

What does scripture say?

 

[LeviR]

What does scripture say?

About what?

 

[Ladodgers6]

About what?

What did ask?

 

[LeviR]

What did ask?

Who knew?

 

[Arial]

@LeviR

Could you please answer the four questions at the bottom of post #436.

 

[LeviR]

@LeviR

Could you please answer the four questions at the bottom of post #436.

“Do you think Jesus was pre-existent as God?
Do you think he was created and is a created man and he became divine?
Do you think angels are divine?
Do you have a strong focus on angels?”

As I understand it. To be born of a woman means to come into existence.
I believe he was a man born of a woman.
I believe angels have a divine nature.
I think the Bible mentions angels more than 300 times.

 

[David Lamb]

“Do you think Jesus was pre-existent as God?
Do you think he was created and is a created man and he became divine?
Do you think angels are divine?
Do you have a strong focus on angels?”

As I understand it. To be born of a woman means to come into existence.
I believe he was a man born of a woman.
I believe angels have a divine nature.
I think the Bible mentions angels more than 300 times.

Yet Jesus Himself said:

“Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM."” (Joh 8:58 NKJV)

Also, John's gospel opens with these words about Jesus Christ:

“1 ¶ In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God.” (Joh 1:1-2 NKJV)

Such things couldn't be true if the existence of Jesus Christ only began when He was conceived in Mary's womb.

 

[LeviR]

Yet Jesus Himself said:

“Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM."” (Joh 8:58 NKJV)

Also, John's gospel opens with these words about Jesus Christ:

“1 ¶ In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God.” (Joh 1:1-2 NKJV)

Such things couldn't be true if the existence of Jesus Christ only began when He was conceived in Mary's womb.

There’s much ambiguity in those verses. Have you ever looked into it?

 

[Arial]

“Do you think Jesus was pre-existent as God?
Do you think he was created and is a created man and he became divine?
Do you think angels are divine?
Do you have a strong focus on angels?”

As I understand it. To be born of a woman means to come into existence.
I believe he was a man born of a woman.
I believe angels have a divine nature.
I think the Bible mentions angels more than 300 times.

Thank you. Your answer to the second question was a bit evasive. Do you think Jesus was a created man who became divine?

Also please define for me what you mean by a divine nature.

 

[LeviR]

Thank you. Your answer to the second question was a bit evasive. Do you think Jesus was a created man who became divine?

Also please define for me what you mean by a divine nature.

I believe all man is created.
The divine nature is immortal.
The image of Adam is mortal. The image of God is immortal.

 

[Arial]

I believe all man is created.

So yes, you think Jesus is created. Why so much trouble saying that?

The divine nature is immortal.
The image of Adam is mortal. The image of God is immortal.

A nature is that which makes something what it is. A divine nature therefore has divine attributes. Attributes that are attributed only to God. Omniscience, omnipotence, omnipresence, self existent, eternal. This of course would of necessity include immortality--the impossibility of death.

Jesus had to have a divine nature even as Son of Man in order to survive death and conquer it. He also had to have a human body, mortal---able to die--- to offer as a ransom for the many. A divine nature cannot be imparted. Nothing in all creation can hold a divine nature or God would not be who he is. One cannot earn a divine nature.

Angels are not immortal---death is impossible--- but are mortal---able to die but not destined of necessity to die. After all, those who rebelled will meet a fiery end. Angels are creatures, created beings. They aren't even created in the image and likeness of God. They serve his purpose as we do, and we do not have the same purpose as that of angels. Angels are not divine.

Jesus did not become divine, he always was and is divine.

Peter in 2 Pet 1 did not say humans become divine in nature, but that the believer partakes of the divine nature through Christ. And the part of God's nature that is being addressed is contrasted with the human nature of fallen man and of this world vv 3-4 His divine power has granted to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of him who called us to his own glory and excellence, by which he has granted to us his precious and very great promises, so that through them you may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped from the corruption that is in the world because of sinful desire.

In Christ, and through the sanctifying work of the Holy Spirit, the believer now begins more and more to reflect the image of God with which he was created.

 

[LeviR]

So yes, you think Jesus is created. Why so much trouble saying that?

A nature is that which makes something what it is. A divine nature therefore has divine attributes. Attributes that are attributed only to God. Omniscience, omnipotence, omnipresence, self existent, eternal. This of course would of necessity include immortality--the impossibility of death.

Jesus had to have a divine nature even as Son of Man in order to survive death and conquer it. He also had to have a human body, mortal---able to die--- to offer as a ransom for the many. A divine nature cannot be imparted. Nothing in all creation can hold a divine nature or God would not be who he is. One cannot earn a divine nature.

Angels are not immortal---death is impossible--- but are mortal---able to die but not destined of necessity to die. After all, those who rebelled will meet a fiery end. Angels are creatures, created beings. They aren't even created in the image and likeness of God. They serve his purpose as we do, and we do not have the same purpose as that of angels. Angels are not divine.

Jesus did not become divine, he always was and is divine.

Peter in 2 Pet 1 did not say humans become divine in nature, but that the believer partakes of the divine nature through Christ. And the part of God's nature that is being addressed is contrasted with the human nature of fallen man and of this world vv 3-4 His divine power has granted to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of him who called us to his own glory and excellence, by which he has granted to us his precious and very great promises, so that through them you may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped from the corruption that is in the world because of sinful desire.

In Christ, and through the sanctifying work of the Holy Spirit, the believer now begins more and more to reflect the image of God with which he was created.

All I do is study the same Bible all of Christianity uses to find out who is getting what right.

 

[Arial]

All I do is study the same Bible all of Christianity uses to find out who is getting what right.

Could you deal directly with what I said?

We aren't really supposed to read the Bible for the reason you state above. You are quite naturally going to agree with those who agree with you and say that is right. And did you not indicate at one time that it is the NWT that you consider right? The JW translation?

 

[LeviR]

Could you deal directly with what I said?

We aren't really supposed to read the Bible for the reason you state above. You are quite naturally going to agree with those who agree with you and say that is right. And did you not indicate at one time that it is the NWT that you consider right? The JW translation?

All I do is study the same Bible all of Christianity uses to find out who is getting what right.

I don’t think I was having trouble saying Jesus was created. I originally said anyone born of a woman comes into existence. Coming into existence excludes pre-existence. Pre-existence itself is absurd.
Those “who seek immortality” seek the divine nature. They seek “the likeness of his resurrection”. To die no more. They are as the angels of God, “neither do they die”.

I don’t believe Jesus had the divine nature else he wouldn’t have died. But now he “dies no more”

 

[Arial]

I don’t think I was having trouble saying Jesus was created. I originally said anyone born of a woman comes into existence. Coming into existence excludes pre-existence. Pre-existence itself is absurd.
Those “who seek immortality” seek the divine nature. They seek “the likeness of his resurrection”. To die no more. They are as the angels of God, “neither do they die”.

I don’t believe Jesus had the divine nature else he wouldn’t have died. But now he “dies no more”

Unbiblical heresy. If someone else wants to take it on they are welcome to. Only God can remove blindness and maybe, prayerfully he will someday. Maybe seeds have been planted that will later gestate and grow. Depends on the soil, and that is outside of man's wheel house. If you keep it up though, without ever dealing with the other side and only contradicting it with your side, it will eventually be shut down. This is a Christian forum. And it is meant for discussion of differences, not just proclaiming them. The "other" side does what your posts do not do.

 

[LeviR]

Unbiblical heresy. If someone else wants to take it on they are welcome to. Only God can remove blindness and maybe, prayerfully he will someday. Maybe seeds have been planted that will later gestate and grow. Depends on the soil, and that is outside of man's wheel house. If you keep it up though, without ever dealing with the other side and only contradicting it with your side, it will eventually be shut down. This is a Christian forum. And it is meant for discussion of differences, not just proclaiming them. The "other" side does what your posts do not do.

What do you mean “without ever dealing with the other side”?

How have you dealt with my side except telling me what you believe that contradicts what I believe?


For example, you say what you think is the divine nature, and then I say what I think. What’s wrong with that?
I believe Adam was created with a mortal nature. And the faithful will be raised with a divine nature. The first is sinful, the second not.
Is that forbidden here?

 

[David Lamb]

There’s much ambiguity in those verses. Have you ever looked into it?

I have looked into these verses, not into ambiguity, which I don't find there.

 

[LeviR]

I have looked into these verses, not into ambiguity, which I don't find there.

What John spoke of before he says “and the Word was made flesh”, seems to be what John was expecting to come. John’s expectation is fulfilled when the unique son of the Father is born of flesh.

“In him was life; and the life was the light of men.“ John 1:4

Whether we say “in him was life” or “through him…” or “by him was life” the idea still seems to be that He is the giver of life. That He gives life to all.

What’s interesting about this is that we are told that the Father who has life in Himself has GIVEN to the son to also have life in himself.

Jhn 5:26 - For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;

Some translations replace “given” with “granted” but the meaning is the same. The Father GIVES the son to have the same life that the Father has in Himself. It is therefore not something the son has always had.

However, the understanding of John 1:4 is supposed to be that the Word has always had life in him and has given that life to all of creation.

This is why what John speaks of before saying “the Word was made flesh”, is what John was expecting to come. And once the son had been born, he is called the Word which was from the beginning.