Through one man, sin entered the world.

[LeviR]

He was also fasting.

Where was Jesus led by the Spirit to be tempted by the devil?

The wilderness, where the wild beasts are. Mark 1:13

Is that the same wilderness John had come preaching?

Mat 3:1 - In those days John the Baptist came preaching in the wilderness of Judea,

Yes.

Was John preaching to Satan and the wild beasts?

Yes, if you understand who Satan and the wild beasts refers

 

[JIM]

There is no need for biology 101. Genes were not mentioned in my post. DNA was not mentioned. I did not even suggest that there is such a thing as a sin gene or that passes to humans from Adam genetically. You are tilting at windmills.

Call it windmills is you want, but if the "sin nature" which you think causes sin comes by way of the father, how does that happen? If not through biology 101, then how? The only other way would be God himself, and I don't believe that.

Show me the scriptures that say it is the Holy Spirit who is incarnate, that he ever was incarnate, and not the Son. And please tell me who is the third person of the Trinity if the Holy Spirit is the second? Tri---three.

I didn't say the Holy Spirit. God is Spirit, the Father is Spirit, the pre-incarnate Jesus (the Word) is Spirit, the Holy Spirit is Spirit. They are three Spirits, one God.

 

[JIM]

We see it begin in Gen 3 with the words God spoke to Adam, "Because you have done this and listened to the voice of your wife..." In Gen 4 we see the effect of sin on mankind begin in Cain. Some things we just have to notice and pay attention to as we grow in our knowledge of God and in understanding of his word. Then we can come to those scriptures that you have declared unilaterally as mistranslated and misinterpreted, without presuppositional beliefs and get the clear and plain meaning. God in his word never uses the phrase "in Eve". It is always when making reference to the human condition, our standing before God, and the very thing that must be conquered by the seed of the woman, refers to the cause as "in Adam."

So I will give you the scriptures you say are mistranslated and misinterpreted.

1 Cor 15:42-49


42 So is it with the resurrection of the dead. What is sown is perishable; what is raised is imperishable. 43 It is sown in dishonor; it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness; it is raised in power. 44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. 45 Thus it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being”;[e] the last Adam became a life-giving spirit. 46 But it is not the spiritual that is first but the natural, and then the spiritual. 47 The first man was from the earth, a man of dust; the second man is from heaven. 48 As was the man of dust, so also are those who are of the dust, and as is the man of heaven, so also are those who are of heaven. 49 Just as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall[f] also bear the image of the man of heaven.

The first man Adam of the dust.
The second man, Christ, from heaven.
We bear the image of the man of dust (we are like him and he became a sinful being.)
So the believer will also bear the image of the second man. No longer of the dust. We will no longer be in Adam but are instead in Christ. There are two men here. One causes one thing for all humanity. The other causes another thing for all who are in Christ through faith. The first is sinful in Adam. The second is forgiven and cleansed of all unrighteousness by the imputed righteousness of Christ. The first imputation is undone by the second imputation.

1 Cor 15:22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive.

1 Tim 2:13-14 For Adam was formed first, then Eve; and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor.

It is Adam who stands as the head of all mankind, not Eve. And remember, Eve was not made of the dust, she came out of Adam.

And if that is not evidence enough that sin comes through the seed of a man to humanity, the account of Jesus' conception in Luke should seal the deal. His mother was human but he had no human biological father. His Father, the one who fathered him, is God. That would indicate that a nature to sin was not passed to him as a part of his human nature. He was as Adam was at creation. He had the ability as to his human faculties to sin, but he did not sin. Sin never entered him as it did Adam.

None of that says anything about the source of sin in mankind is due to Adam. All indications are that the sin nature is an integral part of the human being, otherwise, why did both Adam and Eve sin? It only indicates that Adam was the one who brought sin into the world. He was the first. Actually Eve was the first, but since God placed Adam in charge of Eve, it seems that God is charging Adam with being the first.

 

[Arial]

None of that says anything about the source of sin in mankind is due to Adam. All indications are that the sin nature is an integral part of the human being, otherwise, why did both Adam and Eve sin? It only indicates that Adam was the one who brought sin into the world. He was the first. Actually Eve was the first, but since God placed Adam in charge of Eve, it seems that God is charging Adam with being the first.

Well, the topic isn't actually, was Adam created with a sin nature---and if he was then God created a sin nature. The question currently being dealt with is whether or not this sinful nature that man does have is designated by God to pass to humans through the seed of man. As opposed to the seed of the woman. And is that why Jesus came to us without a father of the dust, for the very purpose of not having a built in nature bent towards sin as ours is. He was not a creature---a created being---- as all the rest of mankind are. And at the same time was fully human since he did have a human mother, but did not get sin in his nature, because there was no Adam involved.

 

[LeviR]

Call it windmills is you want, but if the "sin nature" which you think causes sin comes by way of the father, how does that happen? If not through biology 101, then how? The only other way would be God himself, and I don't believe that.

I didn't say the Holy Spirit. God is Spirit, the Father is Spirit, the pre-incarnate Jesus (the Word) is Spirit, the Holy Spirit is Spirit. They are three Spirits, one God.

The sin nature comes by its inability to live up to the just demands of God. Jesus is the only man who overcame the sin nature and became a sacrifice for sin accepted by God.

 

[LeviR]

None of that says anything about the source of sin in mankind is due to Adam. All indications are that the sin nature is an integral part of the human being, otherwise, why did both Adam and Eve sin? It only indicates that Adam was the one who brought sin into the world. He was the first. Actually Eve was the first, but since God placed Adam in charge of Eve, it seems that God is charging Adam with being the first.

Eve was of the same flesh as Adam and was also forbidden to eat the fruit.
The law is made weak by the flesh.

 

[Arial]

Call it windmills is you want, but if the "sin nature" which you think causes sin comes by way of the father, how does that happen? If not through biology 101, then how? The only other way would be God himself, and I don't believe that.

But isn't that the very thing God sent Gabriel to tell Mary? Isn't it what Jesus meant every time he called God his Father? Isn't it what the NT writers meant every time they mentioned Jesus' lineage in regards to who he is and what he came to do, by saying "according to the flesh"?

I didn't say the Holy Spirit. God is Spirit, the Father is Spirit, the pre-incarnate Jesus (the Word) is Spirit, the Holy Spirit is Spirit. They are three Spirits, one God.

Every time Spirit is capitalized in Scripture it refers to the person of the Holy Spirit. Don't confuse spirit with Spirit.

 

[Arial]

The sin nature comes by its inability to live up to the just demands of God. Jesus is the only man who overcame the sin nature and became a sacrifice for sin accepted by God.

Jesus did not need to overcome the sin nature for himself. He had a human nature but he did not have a sin nature. So let's be clear by what is meant by a sin nature in Christianity.

It means we are bent towards sin. That in itself is sinful. If it is in us, it is in our nature. Paul refers to the struggle between what our spirit desires that is good, ( this is applied by Paul to those who are redeemed, not those who are not, using himself as an example) and what our natural or "the flesh" desires that is not good, and the fact that we, as often as not give in to the sinful desire, as "sin in me" (us). Flesh itself is not sinful. God created it. It does sinful things.

Jesus overcame our sin nature by giving himself as a ransom for our deliverance from the power of sin to condemn and kill us. He went to the grave, carrying our sin with him, and faced death head on and conquered it. Death could not hold him for he had no sin of his own, and no sin nature of his own to overcome. He did it for his people. The ones God gave to him. John 6 and 10. Their debt to God as transgressors is paid in full. Justice and mercy kiss.

 

[makesends]

Also, we know well the details of the inheritance concept in biology whereby the traits of the parents are passed down to the offspring. This passing of traits is made possible by a special substance called genes. Genes are segments of DNA that contain instructions for building and maintaining an organism. So far, I don't think anyone as identified a "sin gene". I doubt that anyone is even looking for such a thing. Why? Because it doesn't exist. And the scriptures don't even suggest that it exists.

If God attaches a spiritual (eternal) fault to a physical (temporal) substance, why would you expect to see it as necessarily a "sin gene". You have a very strange kind of logic, that can't see as possible, what it doesn't want to see as possible.

Where do you read that it is so by God's decree and His design? Where does it say that we have an inborn nature to sin, but Jesus didn't? How can the inborn nature to sin be the human nature and Jesus be human but not have the inborn nature to sin? That doesn't make any sense at all.

Everything is by God's decree and design. To say otherwise is to submit him to the authority of fact(s) beyond himself. That makes him not God.

But look at your logic here: You say, "How can the inborn nature to sin be the human nature and Jesus be human but not have the inborn nature to sin? That doesn't make any sense at all." Your thinking is so stubborn that it goes wooden here; not only can you not say, "That doesn't make any sense to me.", in which you demonstrate the principle that if it doesn't make sense to you, it doesn't make sense at all, but you also fail to recognize the simple logic that if a trait is a human trait, it only means that the trait in humans is necessarily human. It makes no statement that if someone is a human that he is necessarily possessing of that trait. To make it more plain to you, an example: To say, "Human reasoning is necessarily human.", does not mean that all humans possess human logical thought processes. (After all, some humans are born, for all intents and purposes, brainless, and unable to reason, and others are gibbering idiots.)

As I read the rest of your post, and other posts, this kind of reasoning on your part keeps showing up when criticizing other posters, but your posts are full of ways to force your precepts and POV onto the interpretation and assessment of facts. You give your opinions any degree of consideration, forced reasoning, equivocation, and explanation needed to make them sound valid, and then expect others to agree.

 

[LeviR]

Jesus did not need to overcome the sin nature for himself. He had a human nature but he did not have a sin nature. So let's be clear by what is meant by a sin nature in Christianity.

It means we are bent towards sin. That in itself is sinful. If it is in us, it is in our nature. Paul refers to the struggle between what our spirit desires that is good, ( this is applied by Paul to those who are redeemed, not those who are not, using himself as an example) and what our natural or "the flesh" desires that is not good, and the fact that we, as often as not give in to the sinful desire, as "sin in me" (us). Flesh itself is not sinful. God created it. It does sinful things.

Jesus overcame our sin nature by giving himself as a ransom for our deliverance from the power of sin to condemn and kill us. He went to the grave, carrying our sin with him, and faced death head on and conquered it. Death could not hold him for he had no sin of his own, and no sin nature of his own to overcome. He did it for his people. The ones God gave to him. John 6 and 10. Their debt to God as transgressors is paid in full. Justice and mercy kiss.

The flesh is not sinful but it does sinful things???

The flesh is sinful because of its desires. The desires are sinful when opposed to the law. Like, “thou shall not covet”.

Jesus overcame the world by not being of the world. Men hated him.
We overcome the world also by not being of the world. And men will hate us.
IOW, we don’t have to go along to get along.

Jhn 16:33 - “These things I have spoken to you, that in Me you may have peace. In the world you will[fn] have tribulation; but be of good cheer, I have overcome the world.”

 

[Arial]

The flesh is not sinful but it does sinful things???

Did God create something that was sinful. You interpret the whole of Scripture through the lens of post fall as though there was not a pre-fall. You even derive your theology from that position. It is the Gnostics who claimed flesh was a sinful thing, a thing to overcome. Which is why certain branches of it even in the apostolic era claimed that Jesus did not really come in the flesh. That is not what you do with the idea of flesh being a sinful thing, but you still have everything skewed. Add to that that you think Jesus was only flesh and not also God with us, and that after he overcame sinful flesh he became divine ----which is God and therefore has the one true and only God replacing himself with a creature, or at the very least, asking us to worship a creature and giving him equality with himself. He would be creating another god.

The flesh is sinful because of its desires. The desires are sinful when opposed to the law. Like, “thou shall not covet”.

The flesh became sinful because Adam failed the test of his faithfulness. The law of God starts with God and who he is. It did not come into existence with the Mosaic law. The ten commandments are a law for all mankind from creation forward. They did not come into existence when God spoke them. He spoke them because they already existed in him. Sin and a proclivity to sin did not exist in Adam until he did break God's law.

Jesus overcame the world by not being of the world. Men hated him.
We overcome the world also by not being of the world. And men will hate us.
IOW, we don’t have to go along to get along.

Jhn 16:33 - “These things I have spoken to you, that in Me you may have peace. In the world you will[fn] have tribulation; but be of good cheer, I have overcome the world.”

IOW you do not believe the gospel. What you just stated is the opposite of the gospel.

 

[JIM]

Everything is by God's decree and design. To say otherwise is to submit him to the authority of fact(s) beyond himself. That makes him not God.

So, Hitler and the Holocaust is by God's decree and design? I don't believe that for a moment. All the evil in the world is by God's decree and design? Nah!!!

 

[LeviR]

Did God create something that was sinful. You interpret the whole of Scripture through the lens of post fall as though there was not a pre-fall. You even derive your theology from that position. It is the Gnostics who claimed flesh was a sinful thing, a thing to overcome. Which is why certain branches of it even in the apostolic era claimed that Jesus did not really come in the flesh. That is not what you do with the idea of flesh being a sinful thing, but you still have everything skewed. Add to that that you think Jesus was only flesh and not also God with us, and that after he overcame sinful flesh he became divine ----which is God and therefore has the one true and only God replacing himself with a creature, or at the very least, asking us to worship a creature and giving him equality with himself. He would be creating another god.

The flesh became sinful because Adam failed the test of his faithfulness. The law of God starts with God and who he is. It did not come into existence with the Mosaic law. The ten commandments are a law for all mankind from creation forward. They did not come into existence when God spoke them. He spoke them because they already existed in him. Sin and a proclivity to sin did not exist in Adam until he did break God's law.

IOW you do not believe the gospel. What you just stated is the opposite of the gospel.

I believe God created His Son to be as Himself. He has put all things under Him. Under His feet. Has given all things into His hand. All of creation. And after the Son’s reign over all is ended He will surrender it all back to the Father, and God will be all and in all.
All things have been made subject to Him except He who subjected all things to Him.

There are different gospels among men. The gospel as you understand it differs from how I understand it.

What I’m saying is that Adam sinned of his own desire which was a fleshly desire.

 

[Arial]

I believe God created His Son to be as Himself.

Then he would be creating another god, which of course would not be God because God is not created. And if by "as himself" you mean in his image and likeness, that is how he created man, which makes man a creature. Jesus is not created. He is Emmanuel. God with us, just as God promised.

He has put all things under Him. Under His feet.

Your reference is 1 Cor 15:24-28 This is not speaking of Christ being less than God but as Christ in his Messianic role. His work will not be complete until the last enemy, death, is destroyed. His being subjected does not mean he is inferior in being and dignity. It refers to his work of redemption. He does this Messianic work according to the will of the Father. When he finishes this work he hands the redeemed kingdom over to the Father. The climax of the submissive work is conquest over all his enemies that God may be all in all. No more enemies.

Show me a creature that has that kind of power. Only God has that power and only God can direct it and plan it.

There are different gospels among men. The gospel as you understand it differs from how I understand it.

There is only one true gospel. And it is the gospel Paul preached.

Gal 1:6-9 I am astonished that you so are so quickly deserting him who called you in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel--not that there is another one, but there are some who trouble you and want to distort the gospel of Christ. But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed. As we have said before, so now I say against: If anyone is preaching to you a gospel contrary to the one you received,let him be accursed.

So lets go back and look at the gospel you preached---for the gospel has always to do with the person and work of Jesus.

Jesus overcame the world by not being of the world. Men hated him.
We overcome the world also by not being of the world. And men will hate us.
IOW, we don’t have to go along to get along.

What Christianity and the Bible it comes from says.

Jesus conquered sin and death by living in the world as one of us, and then dying the death we deserve in our place. He gave himself as a ransom to deliver us from facing the wrath of God and to take us out of the hands of God's enemies. He became a curse for us. His resurrection guarantees our resurrection and a new creation free of corruption. You should be familiar with the many verses that these things come from, but if you want, I will give some to you.

 

[Arial]

So, Hitler and the Holocaust is by God's decree and design? I don't believe that for a moment. All the evil in the world is by God's decree and design? Nah!!!

I wonder who it was who decreed that Christ would suffer and die on the cross? Or was that just a coincidence or something God acclimated himself to?

 

[LeviR]

Then he would be creating another god, which of course would not be God because God is not created. And if by "as himself" you mean in his image and likeness, that is how he created man, which makes man a creature. Jesus is not created. He is Emmanuel. God with us, just as God promised.

Your reference is 1 Cor 15:24-28 This is not speaking of Christ being less than God but as Christ in his Messianic role. His work will not be complete until the last enemy, death, is destroyed. His being subjected does not mean he is inferior in being and dignity. It refers to his work of redemption. He does this Messianic work according to the will of the Father. When he finishes this work he hands the redeemed kingdom over to the Father. The climax of the submissive work is conquest over all his enemies that God may be all in all. No more enemies.

Show me a creature that has that kind of power. Only God has that power and only God can direct it and plan it.

There is only one true gospel. And it is the gospel Paul preached.

Gal 1:6-9 I am astonished that you so are so quickly deserting him who called you in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel--not that there is another one, but there are some who trouble you and want to distort the gospel of Christ. But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed. As we have said before, so now I say against: If anyone is preaching to you a gospel contrary to the one you received,let him be accursed.

So lets go back and look at the gospel you preached---for the gospel has always to do with the person and work of Jesus.

What Christianity and the Bible it comes from says.

Jesus conquered sin and death by living in the world as one of us, and then dying the death we deserve in our place. He gave himself as a ransom to deliver us from facing the wrath of God and to take us out of the hands of God's enemies. He became a curse for us. His resurrection guarantees our resurrection and a new creation free of corruption. You should be familiar with the many verses that these things come from, but if you want, I will give some to you.

Gal 3:8 - And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, “In you all the nations shall be blessed.”[fn]

The gospel goes back to Abraham where the scripture foresaw how God would justify the Gentiles by faith. Saying, in Abraham all nations shall be blessed.

Was the gospel preached to Abraham?

For anyone to know the true gospel, he must go back to Abraham.

 

[Arial]

Gal 3:8 - And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, “In you all the nations shall be blessed.”[fn]

The gospel goes back to Abraham where the scripture foresaw how God would justify the Gentiles by faith. Saying, in Abraham all nations shall be blessed.

Was the gospel preached to Abraham?

For anyone to know the true gospel, he must go back to Abraham.

What is your point? Try and deal with what I said for once. I am done with these exchanges until you can start doing that.

 

[makesends]

So, Hitler and the Holocaust is by God's decree and design? I don't believe that for a moment. All the evil in the world is by God's decree and design? Nah!!!

You apparently consider this life to be an end in itself. It is not. It is for God's purposes in producing that end result that he spoke into fact before the foundation of the world, by means that are not always fun and nice. So, yes, Hitler and the Holocaust and possibly even worse things, are by God's decree and design.

Do you think that Israel's slaughter of whole city-nations, to include women, children and even livestock, was not by God's design, when it was even by God's command? Did you not know that what Cyrus did to Israel was by means of Cyrus operating expressly God's tool for the very purpose of doing that to Israel?

But I see you neatly avoided answering the rest of my post, even avoiding dealing with the point of the one statement to which you did respond, and even reverted to emotionalism to answer the little bit that you did.

 

[LeviR]

What is your point? Try and deal with what I said for once. I am done with these exchanges until you can start doing that.

Your argument about God creating another God doesn’t work because both men and angels are called God/s and they both are created.

 

[Arial]

Your argument about God creating another God doesn’t work because both men and angels are called God/s and they both are created.

They are called gods---not God's. And only God is to be worshiped. And yet, for some odd reason (sarcasm) God tells us to worship the Son. You need to take a course in Bible hermeneutics, although common sense handles all those nuances unless it purposely does not want to.