The Unchangeableness of God and the Will of God

[Kermos]

Many people preach that God has a free-will.

The common free-willian refrain is along the lines of "God has freewill. Christ has freewill. Man was made in their image/likeness. Result? = Man has free will." (an actual free-willian quote).

So, the free-willian philosophy holds that God free-will chooses to change between good and evil, and, since God created man in God's image according to God's likeness (Genesis 1:26), then man does precisely the same as God; therefore, man free-will chooses to change between good and evil.

A Will Requires A Host​

First, the definition of free must be considered.

Free denotes:

1. of autonomy:
   • (noun) no constraint, uncontrolled, liberty, not enslaved, emancipation.
   • (verb) disentangled, extricate, untangle.
2. of property:
   • (noun) complimentary, without charge, gratis, no payment required.
   • (verb) give away, sacrifice.

The subject is not of property regarding free-will, so the subject is focused of autonomy regarding free-will.

The word "free" represents a relative concept, as shown in the following paragraph; in other words, a person is "free" from "something".

A person in a constitutional republic, such as the U.S.A., is free to start a business (free from being captives of the tyranny of the King of Great Britain per the U.S. Declaration of Independence), but a person in a communist country, such as North Korea, is NOT free to start a business (communist citizens are captives (owned) by their government).

Second, the definition of free-will must be considered.

Free-will: an autonomous will, an isolated willpower, detached volition, independent moral agency.

Next, considering "will", a will exists not in a vacuum; in other words, a will must be part of a host.

Respecting an unsaved person - the default first condition of every person, since a host (person) is required to host a will, then the person's will is part of the person's self, so the person's will is self-will because the person'a will is attached to the self-same person; on the other hand, the person's will is not free floating detached from the person, so the person's will is not free-will.

The Apostle proclaims a person's will is either one of but not both of:

• a person's will is controlled by God with "God having purified your souls in the obedience of the Truth through the Spirit" (1 Peter 1:21-22) and "it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure" (Philippians 2:13).
• a person's will is controlled by man with "the Lord knows how" "to keep the unrighteous under punishment for the day of judgment, and especially those who indulge the flesh in its corrupt desires and despise authority, daring, self-willed, they do not tremble when they revile angelic majesties" (2 Peter 2:9-10).

A person's will is dependent upon God (Christimage-will (bond-will), Romans 8:29), or a person's will is dependent upon man (self-will, 2 Peter 2:9-10). No other will exists for a person; moreover, free-will is an illusion as conveyed by the Apostle Paul with "I did not want to do anything, so that your goodness would not be, in effect, by compulsion but of your own free will" (Philemon 1:14).

While the unrighteous unbelievers daringly revel in their own glory founded in their self-willed "I chose Jesus" (2 Peter 2:9-10) thus their hearts steal King Jesus Christ's glory, on the other hand, we righteousness of God in Christ believers worship the Glorious One (2 Corinthians 5:21) who sovereignly chose us (John 15:16, John 15:19 includes salvation).

Thus says Adonai YHWH (Lord GOD) "I am YHWH; that is my name; my glory I give to no other" (Isaiah 42:8), yet the free-willians try to steal God's exclusive glory in the salvation of man.

God's Will is not free will because a free-will does not have a host, yet a host is required for an associated will to exist; therefore, the Will of God is God's Will. See God's Will mentioned in 1 Peter 2:15.

NO SCRIPTURE STATES THAT GOD HAS A FREE-WILL.

God is unchangingly good (Malachi 3:6, Psalm 107:1) for the Word of God says "no one is good except God alone" (Mark 10:18), so God is exclusively good all the time while at the same time God never changes to being evil.

In effect, free-willian philosophy includes that God imparted God-like free-will into man, and it is established that man free-will chooses between being good and being evil according to man's God-like free-will; therefore, God's free-will results in God fluctuating between good and evil because man's God-like free-will fluctuates between good and evil, so God changes to being evil by free-willian philosophers preaching that God has free-will.

THE RESULT, MAN CANNOT HAVE A GOD-LIKE FREE-WILL BECAUSE GOD CANNOT HAVE A FREE-WILL.

NO SCRIPTURE STATES THAT MAN HAS A FREE-WILL.

Free-will philosophy includes the man generated foundation that, by free-will, man can choose to be evil or good, even the ability for a natural man to free-will choose Jesus Christ unto the good of saving himself from the wrath of God.

The Word of God declares:

• "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:16), so God chooses people to be friends (John 15:15, the prior verse) and to believe (John 6:29) and to be born again (John 3:3-8) and for righteous works (John 3:21, John 15:5) and to repent (Matthew 11:25) and to love (John 13:34) and unto salvation (John 15:19 the same passage).
• "I chose you out of the world" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:19, includes salvation), so God exclusively chooses people unto salvation.
• "What I say to you I say to all" (Lord Jesus Christ, Mark 13:37 - Jesus had taken the Apostles Peter, Andrew, James, and John aside in private and said this), so all the blessings of God mentioned above are to all believers in all time.

The only way for free-willian philosophers to acheive free-will is for them to add to the Word of God, and it is written "do not add to His words or He will reprove you, and you will be proved a liar" (Proverbs 30:6).

Every person has a will, but a person's will is either one of but not both of (1) a self-will against God in evil for the natural flesh person (2 Peter 2:9-10) or (2) a will in Christ doing God's good by the Holy Spirit for the Born of God (Romans 8:29, Philippians 2:13, John 3:3-8).

 

[Josheb]

Many people preach that God has a free-will.

The common free-willian refrain is along the lines of "God has freewill. Christ has freewill. Man was made in their image/likeness. Result? = Man has free will." (an actual free-willian quote).

So, the free-willian philosophy holds that God free-will chooses to change between good and evil, and, since God created man in God's image according to God's likeness (Genesis 1:26), then man does precisely the same as God; therefore, man free-will chooses to change between good and evil.

A Will Requires A Host​

First, the definition of free must be considered.

Free denotes:

1. of autonomy:
   • (noun) no constraint, uncontrolled, liberty, not enslaved, emancipation.
   • (verb) disentangled, extricate, untangle.
2. of property:
   • (noun) complimentary, without charge, gratis, no payment required.
   • (verb) give away, sacrifice.

The subject is not of property regarding free-will, so the subject is focused of autonomy regarding free-will.

The word "free" represents a relative concept, as shown in the following paragraph; in other words, a person is "free" from "something".

A person in a constitutional republic, such as the U.S.A., is free to start a business (free from being captives of the tyranny of the King of Great Britain per the U.S. Declaration of Independence), but a person in a communist country, such as North Korea, is NOT free to start a business (communist citizens are captives (owned) by their government).

Second, the definition of free-will must be considered.

Free-will: an autonomous will, an isolated willpower, detached volition, independent moral agency.

Next, considering "will", a will exists not in a vacuum; in other words, a will must be part of a host.

Respecting an unsaved person - the default first condition of every person, since a host (person) is required to host a will, then the person's will is part of the person's self, so the person's will is self-will because the person'a will is attached to the self-same person; on the other hand, the person's will is not free floating detached from the person, so the person's will is not free-will.

The Apostle proclaims a person's will is either one of but not both of:

• a person's will is controlled by God with "God having purified your souls in the obedience of the Truth through the Spirit" (1 Peter 1:21-22) and "it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure" (Philippians 2:13).
• a person's will is controlled by man with "the Lord knows how" "to keep the unrighteous under punishment for the day of judgment, and especially those who indulge the flesh in its corrupt desires and despise authority, daring, self-willed, they do not tremble when they revile angelic majesties" (2 Peter 2:9-10).

A person's will is dependent upon God (Christimage-will (bond-will), Romans 8:29), or a person's will is dependent upon man (self-will, 2 Peter 2:9-10). No other will exists for a person; moreover, free-will is an illusion as conveyed by the Apostle Paul with "I did not want to do anything, so that your goodness would not be, in effect, by compulsion but of your own free will" (Philemon 1:14).

While the unrighteous unbelievers daringly revel in their own glory founded in their self-willed "I chose Jesus" (2 Peter 2:9-10) thus their hearts steal King Jesus Christ's glory, on the other hand, we righteousness of God in Christ believers worship the Glorious One (2 Corinthians 5:21) who sovereignly chose us (John 15:16, John 15:19 includes salvation).

Thus says Adonai YHWH (Lord GOD) "I am YHWH; that is my name; my glory I give to no other" (Isaiah 42:8), yet the free-willians try to steal God's exclusive glory in the salvation of man.

God's Will is not free will because a free-will does not have a host, yet a host is required for an associated will to exist; therefore, the Will of God is God's Will. See God's Will mentioned in 1 Peter 2:15.

NO SCRIPTURE STATES THAT GOD HAS A FREE-WILL.

God is unchangingly good (Malachi 3:6, Psalm 107:1) for the Word of God says "no one is good except God alone" (Mark 10:18), so God is exclusively good all the time while at the same time God never changes to being evil.

In effect, free-willian philosophy includes that God imparted God-like free-will into man, and it is established that man free-will chooses between being good and being evil according to man's God-like free-will; therefore, God's free-will results in God fluctuating between good and evil because man's God-like free-will fluctuates between good and evil, so God changes to being evil by free-willian philosophers preaching that God has free-will.

THE RESULT, MAN CANNOT HAVE A GOD-LIKE FREE-WILL BECAUSE GOD CANNOT HAVE A FREE-WILL.

NO SCRIPTURE STATES THAT MAN HAS A FREE-WILL.

Free-will philosophy includes the man generated foundation that, by free-will, man can choose to be evil or good, even the ability for a natural man to free-will choose Jesus Christ unto the good of saving himself from the wrath of God.

The Word of God declares:

• "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:16), so God chooses people to be friends (John 15:15, the prior verse) and to believe (John 6:29) and to be born again (John 3:3-8) and for righteous works (John 3:21, John 15:5) and to repent (Matthew 11:25) and to love (John 13:34) and unto salvation (John 15:19 the same passage).
• "I chose you out of the world" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:19, includes salvation), so God exclusively chooses people unto salvation.
• "What I say to you I say to all" (Lord Jesus Christ, Mark 13:37 - Jesus had taken the Apostles Peter, Andrew, James, and John aside in private and said this), so all the blessings of God mentioned above are to all believers in all time.

The only way for free-willian philosophers to acheive free-will is for them to add to the Word of God, and it is written "do not add to His words or He will reprove you, and you will be proved a liar" (Proverbs 30:6).

Every person has a will, but a person's will is either one of but not both of (1) a self-will against God in evil for the natural flesh person (2 Peter 2:9-10) or (2) a will in Christ doing God's good by the Holy Spirit for the Born of God (Romans 8:29, Philippians 2:13, John 3:3-8).

How about we start with something simple, basic, and fundamental.


Does God have a will? Does God possess volitional agency of any kind to any degree?

 

[Kermos]

How about we start with something simple, basic, and fundamental.


Does God have a will? Does God possess volitional agency of any kind to any degree?

Your first question is answered in paragraph 20 where 1 Peter 2:15 is cited in the original post.

Your second question is answered in paragraphs 27 and 28 where John 15:16, John 15:19, and Mark 13:37 are quoted in the original post.

You mentioned "simple, basic, and fundamental" in regard to matters covered in the original post, so it appears to me that the matters covered in the original post exceed your "simple, basic, and fundamental" comprehension.

Did you notice, your post is devoid of Scripture?

And here we have the Truth (John 14:6), the love of Christ controls us believers (2 Corinthians 5:14), His vessels of mercy (Romans 9:21-23)!

 

[Josheb]

NO SCRIPTURE STATES THAT GOD HAS A FREE-WILL.

I did not ask if He had a free will. I asked if He had a will.

Your first question is answered in paragraph 20 where 1 Peter 2:15 is cited in the original post.

No, it is not. The only mentions of God's will assume it's existence. They beg the question. I asked it plainly so as to establish both a record and, if possible, a consensus. I did so explicitly in an attempt to start with something basic, simple, and fundamental - not something assumed and repeatedly begged.

God's Will is not free will because a free-will does not have a host, yet a host is required for an associated will to exist; therefore, the Will of God is God's Will. See God's Will mentioned in 1 Peter 2:15...............

Assumes something not in evidence.

Your second question is answered in paragraphs 27 and 28 where John 15:16, John 15:19, and Mark 13:37 are quoted in the original post.

Again, those paragraphs do not answer the question asked. They assume something not yet proven true. The first question and the second question are the same question using different wording. "Volitional agency" is synonymous with "will." Post #3 ignores the question and does not answer it.

You mentioned "simple, basic, and fundamental" in regard to matters covered in the original post, so it appears to me that the matters covered in the original post exceed your "simple, basic, and fundamental" comprehension.

Yes, I understand how you might think that given the assumptions made in the op, the abject failure to evidence (much less prove) those presuppositions, and the failure to actually answer the specific question explicitly asked. However, the lack of comprehension, so far, is all on you and you do not appear to comprehend even that!

The op assumes a will.

It does not prove a will.

I am asking a very basic, simple, fundamental question: Does God have a will? Does He have any degree of volitional agency? The answer to that question does not require you, me, or anyone else to re-read the opening post. That question can and should be answered with a single word, either "Yes," or "No." Nothing is more simple, basic, and fundamental than yes or no. That is not difficult to comprehend .

Did you notice, your post is devoid of Scripture?

I did. I do hope you are not going to assume a fallacy of false cause thinkinig because a post does not contain scripture it must be wrong because that too would demonstrate a lack of comprehension on your part and do so in avoidance of a one-word answer to the question asked.

Does God have a will? Does He have any degree of volitional agency? Yes or no?

And here we have the Truth (John 14:6), the love of Christ controls us believers (2 Corinthians 5:14), His vessels of mercy (Romans 9:21-23)!

Neither verse states anything about the existence of a will in God. Post #3 does not answer the question asked, so I am going to ask it again.


Does God have a will? Does He have any volitional agency at all?


Just answer the question asked.











(Hint: if He has any degree of volitional agency then he necessarily has a will and the answer to the question asked is, "Yes!")
.

 

[Kermos]

I did not ask if He had a free will. I asked if He had a will.

No, it is not. The only mentions of God's will assume it's existence. They beg the question. I asked it plainly so as to establish both a record and, if possible, a consensus. I did so explicitly in an attempt to start with something basic, simple, and fundamental - not something assumed and repeatedly begged.

Assumes something not in evidence.

Again, those paragraphs do not answer the question asked. They assume something not yet proven true. The first question and the second question are the same question using different wording. "Volitional agency" is synonymous with "will." Post #3 ignores the question and does not answer it.

Yes, I understand how you might think that given the assumptions made in the op, the abject failure to evidence (much less prove) those presuppositions, and the failure to actually answer the specific question explicitly asked. However, the lack of comprehension, so far, is all on you and you do not appear to comprehend even that!

The op assumes a will.

It does not prove a will.

I am asking a very basic, simple, fundamental question: Does God have a will? Does He have any degree of volitional agency? The answer to that question does not require you, me, or anyone else to re-read the opening post. That question can and should be answered with a single word, either "Yes," or "No." Nothing is more simple, basic, and fundamental than yes or no. That is not difficult to comprehend .

I did. I do hope you are not going to assume a fallacy of false cause thinkinig because a post does not contain scripture it must be wrong because that too would demonstrate a lack of comprehension on your part and do so in avoidance of a one-word answer to the question asked.

Does God have a will? Does He have any degree of volitional agency? Yes or no?

Neither verse states anything about the existence of a will in God. Post #3 does not answer the question asked, so I am going to ask it again.

Does God have a will? Does He have any volitional agency at all?

Just answer the question asked.

(Hint: if He has any degree of volitional agency then he necessarily has a will and the answer to the question asked is, "Yes!").

Is your disdain for me so very virulent in your pulmonary system that you deny the original post's 20th paragraph phrase "the Will of God" inherently indicates that God has a will?

Your first question "Does God have a will" was answered prior to you asking the question in the paragraph 20 clause "the Will of God is God's Will".

In fact, this possessive form, "God's Will" within this alternate sentence within the same paragraph "See God's Will mentioned in 1 Peter 2:15" distinctly indicates God has a wiil, and there is no mention of free-will in the sentence, so your opening sentence fails to make sense; furthermore, I refer to my brother Peter's declaration regarding God's Will, so when you wrote "those paragraphs do not answer the question asked. They assume something not yet proven true" then you conveyed that the Apostle Peter's writing in 1 Peter 2:15 is not true.

Your second question "Does God possess volitional agency of any kind to any degree" was also answered prior to you asking the question in paragraph 28 which contains the Word of God declaring God exercisingGod's Will with "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:16).

In fact, the word "chose" indicating the exercise of "volitional agency" (will) occurs in another quote of the Word of God in the 28th paragraph ""I chose you out of the world" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:19, includes salvation).

These points are "basic, simple, fundamental" as drawn from the original post, of which you cannot dispute in Truth (John 14:6).

Your prior post was devoid of the Word of God, and your current post is devoid Scripture, so your thoughts are all that is there in your post.

And here we have the Truth (John 14:6), the love of Christ controls us believers (2 Corinthians 5:14), His vessels of mercy (Romans 9:21-23)!

 

[fastfredy0]

Free-will: an autonomous will, an isolated willpower, detached volition, independent moral agency.

God's Will is not free will because a free-will does not have a host

A Will Requires A Host

Over all I liked your post.
I'm confused. I think you are saying God does not have Free Will which seems to contradict your definition:

an autonomous will, an isolated willpower, detached volition, independent moral agency.

I don't understand how you can say God's will does not have a host.

God’s will is a necessity that arises from his nature, because of which, such must be the will of God, that he wills himself, his existence, and the relations of the persons of the Godhead.
As to all else than himself, God wills freely, whether his will has regard to their existence, or mode of existence, or their actions, or the events which influence or control them. He does his own will, not that of another. He chooses what, and whom he will create, and the times, places and circumstances in which he will place those he creates. He marks out to all his intelligent creatures the paths of their lives. He uses them for his purposes.
When it is said, however, that God wills freely, it is not meant that no influence is exerted upon his will. It is only intended to deny that his will is influenced from without. In all his outward acts, as well as in those within, he is governed by his own nature. That nature, and that will, must always be in unison. As he is infinitely wise, so must his will and action be directed towards wise ends in the use of wise means. His infinite justice forbids that he should will or do anything contrary to the strictest justice. The God of truth must also purpose in accordance with truth and faithfulness. James Boyce – Systematic Theology

 

[Josheb]

Your first question "Does God have a will" was answered prior to you asking the question in the paragraph 20 clause "the Will of God is God's Will".

Which begs the question. The "paragraph 20 clause" does not answer the question. It begs it. It assumes something not evidenced. I did not ask if "the will of God is God's will." The will of God is not God's will if God does not possess a will. The question asked is something very simple, very basic, and very fundamental to this op - and you're refusing to answer it. This question is asked to establish a basis for the op. This question is asked in order to build a consensus with others and a consensus that reconciles with Scripture. This question is asked to evidence either a collaborative spirit or a divisive one. We'd ALL be much further along in the discussion of this op if the question asked had been answered directly, immediately, and succinctly when first asked. If an unwillingness to answer one of the most simple, basic, and fundamental questions exists then why should anyone give anything you ever post a second of thought? This question is valid and op-relevant. You're arguing and being unnecessarily contentious instead of posting a single one-word answer that would instantly move things along, demonstrate goodwill, and provide a foundation for your own op. Just answer the question asked. One word.


Does God have a will? Does He have any volitional agency?

 

[Kermos]

Over all I liked your post.
I'm confused. I think you are saying God does not have Free Will which seems to contradict your definition:

I don't understand how you can say God's will does not have a host.

God’s will is a necessity that arises from his nature, because of which, such must be the will of God, that he wills himself, his existence, and the relations of the persons of the Godhead.
As to all else than himself, God wills freely, whether his will has regard to their existence, or mode of existence, or their actions, or the events which influence or control them. He does his own will, not that of another. He chooses what, and whom he will create, and the times, places and circumstances in which he will place those he creates. He marks out to all his intelligent creatures the paths of their lives. He uses them for his purposes.
When it is said, however, that God wills freely, it is not meant that no influence is exerted upon his will. It is only intended to deny that his will is influenced from without. In all his outward acts, as well as in those within, he is governed by his own nature. That nature, and that will, must always be in unison. As he is infinitely wise, so must his will and action be directed towards wise ends in the use of wise means. His infinite justice forbids that he should will or do anything contrary to the strictest justice. The God of truth must also purpose in accordance with truth and faithfulness. James Boyce – Systematic Theology

Thank you for the congenial post!

At the opening of the original post, the definition of "free" is examined.

A key component of free is the denotation of detached, so the word detached is a drop in replacement for the word free.

God does not have a detached will (free will) because God's Will is attached to God.

God is the Host for God's Will, and the Will of God is governed by God alone.

God is controlled by no one.

This is essentially the same as the paragraph where God had me mention 1 Peter 2:15 in the original post.

Here are my suspicions, but you would need to confirm whether each is true or false:

1. Suspicion: at least in part, this paragraph from the original post contributes to where you wrote "I don't understand how you can say God's will does not have a host":
   
   
   God's Will is not free will because a free-will does not have a host, yet a host is required for an associated will to exist; therefore, the Will of God is God's Will. See God's Will mentioned in 1 Peter 2:15.
   ​
2. Suspicion: you equate "freewill" to be equivalent to "will"; in other words, you think "free-will" and "will" are the same thing, so "free will" and "will" can be used interchangeably.

Please affirm or rebut my suspicions.

And here we have the Truth (John 14:6), the love of Christ controls us believers (2 Corinthians 5:14), His vessels of mercy (Romans 9:21-23)!

 

[Josheb]

A key component of free is the denotation of detached, so the word detached is a drop in replacement for the word free.

Make the case for that statement, please.


Denotation versus connotation.

According to the dictionary, a word's denotation is its plain and direct meaning — its explicit meaning. A word's connotation is what the word implies—that is, the nuances and shades of meaning that the word carries with it.

The plain, direct, explicit meaning of "free" is not "detached." The plain, direct, and explicit meaning of "free" is "autonomous" or "unfettered," or not under the control or in the power of another and able to act as one wishes in all circumstances or conditions. Where did you get the notion the word "free" means "detached," the two words can be exchanged synonymously and should be applied to mean God would have to be detached from both Himself and His creation in order to be free? How did you conclude God's will being attached to Himself precluded and any and all possibility of His will being free? Most would argue the exact opposite: because God's will is wholly, inherently, and intrinsically attached to Himself and not bound, controlled, or influenced by any other power it is the only free will that exists.


Make the case for the above statement, please.

God does not have a detached will (free will) because God's Will is attached to God.

That does not mean His will is not free.

God is the Host for God's Will

False dichotomy

, and the Will of God is governed by God alone.

Which makes both God and His will free.

God is controlled by no one.

Which makes both God and His will free.

This is essentially the same as the paragraph where God had me mention 1 Peter 2:15 in the original post.

Which makes God and His will free.

And here we have the Truth (John 14:6), the love of Christ controls us believers (2 Corinthians 5:14), His vessels of mercy (Romans 9:21-23)!

Off topic. This op is about God's will and whether or not is is free. This op is not about the human will or whether the love of Christ controls us humans. We are not God.

 

[fastfredy0]

God's Will is not free will because a free-will does not have a host, yet a host is required for an associated will to exist; therefore, the Will of God is God's Will. See God's Will mentioned in 1 Peter 2:15.

Yeah, I think I get where you are coming from given your your statement ... "God does not have a detached will (free will) because God's Will is attached to God."
The terminology was difficult for me to follow.

you equate "freewill" to be equivalent to "will"; in other words, you think "free-will" and "will" are the same thing, so "free will" and "will" can be used interchangeably.

No that's is not the definition I would assign to "free will", though my observations have lead me to believe that most people equate "free will" to just one's "will".
There are several "free will" definitions ... I go with Free Will = the power to do what we require most at the time"
.... whereas I think others would say Free Will is: "The power of making choices that are neither determined by natural causality nor predestined by fate or divine will." (I don't believe this statement to be true)

 

[Josheb]

Yeah, I think I get where you are coming from given your your statement ... "God does not have a detached will (free will) because God's Will is attached to God."
The terminology was difficult for me to follow.

It is a red herring. No one thinks God's will is detached from God. He's created an argument to which no one subscribes and then argued against the invention. That makes the argument a straw man. Furthermore, there is an assumption an attached free will is not and cannot be free when the opposite is true and much, much more scripturally and logically consistent with the integrated unity of The God Who is One.

No that's is not the definition I would assign to "free will", though my observations have lead me to believe that most people equate "free will" to just one's "will".

Smart guy.

 

[Kermos]

Which begs the question. The "paragraph 20 clause" does not answer the question. It begs it. It assumes something not evidenced. I did not ask if "the will of God is God's will." The will of God is not God's will if God does not possess a will. The question asked is something very simple, very basic, and very fundamental to this op - and you're refusing to answer it. This question is asked to establish a basis for the op. This question is asked in order to build a consensus with others and a consensus that reconciles with Scripture. This question is asked to evidence either a collaborative spirit or a divisive one. We'd ALL be much further along in the discussion of this op if the question asked had been answered directly, immediately, and succinctly when first asked. If an unwillingness to answer one of the most simple, basic, and fundamental questions exists then why should anyone give anything you ever post a second of thought? This question is valid and op-relevant. You're arguing and being unnecessarily contentious instead of posting a single one-word answer that would instantly move things along, demonstrate goodwill, and provide a foundation for your own op. Just answer the question asked. One word.


Does God have a will? Does He have any volitional agency?

Make the case for that statement, please.


Denotation versus connotation.

According to the dictionary, a word's denotation is its plain and direct meaning — its explicit meaning. A word's connotation is what the word implies—that is, the nuances and shades of meaning that the word carries with it.

The plain, direct, explicit meaning of "free" is not "detached." The plain, direct, and explicit meaning of "free" is "autonomous" or "unfettered," or not under the control or in the power of another and able to act as one wishes in all circumstances or conditions. Where did you get the notion the word "free" means "detached," the two words can be exchanged synonymously and should be applied to mean God would have to be detached from both Himself and His creation in order to be free? How did you conclude God's will being attached to Himself precluded and any and all possibility of His will being free? Most would argue the exact opposite: because God's will is wholly, inherently, and intrinsically attached to Himself and not bound, controlled, or influenced by any other power it is the only free will that exists.


Make the case for the above statement, please.


That does not mean His will is not free.

False dichotomy

Which makes both God and His will free.

Which makes both God and His will free.

Which makes God and His will free.

Off topic. This op is about God's will and whether or not is is free. This op is not about the human will or whether the love of Christ controls us humans. We are not God.

It is a red herring. No one thinks God's will is detached from God. He's created an argument to which no one subscribes and then argued against the invention. That makes the argument a straw man. Furthermore, there is an assumption an attached free will is not and cannot be free when the opposite is true and much, much more scripturally and logically consistent with the integrated unity of The God Who is One.

Smart guy.

Josheb, our point of contention is that you believe "God does not possess a will" (from your post) which contradicts my belief as expounded by my brother Peter "such is the will of God that by doing right you may silence the ignorance of foolish men" (1 Peter 2:15); therefore, Apostolic testimony holds that GOD DOES POSSESS A WILL!

And here we have the Truth (John 14:6), the love of Christ controls us believers (2 Corinthians 5:14), His vessels of mercy (Romans 9:21-23)!

 

[Kermos]

Yeah, I think I get where you are coming from given your your statement ... "God does not have a detached will (free will) because God's Will is attached to God."
The terminology was difficult for me to follow.

I appreciate you sticking it out!

No that's is not the definition I would assign to "free will", though my observations have lead me to believe that most people equate "free will" to just one's "will".

That was precisely the point!

There are several "free will" definitions ... I go with Free Will = the power to do what we require most at the time"

Largely, I use free will to mean man choosing toward God, emphatically Lord Jesus Christ.

This kind of expands on how you wrote "most people equate 'free will' to just one's 'will'"; meanwhile, it constrains the messaging.

.... whereas I think others would say Free Will is: "The power of making choices that are neither determined by natural causality nor predestined by fate or divine will." (I don't believe this statement to be true)

This leads back to the "Largely" definition, above.

I don't believe that statement to be true, either.

I believe the following:

The Bondage Of A Man's Will​

Free-willians, in a respect, are correct that "there's no difference between self will and free will", and that respect is that both self will and free will lead to hell.
Now, instead of listening to themselves lie with things like "Free will is all through the scriptures", they need to listen to Apostolic testimony as shown below.

Peter the Apostle wrote that prior to being saved, people have a self will that brings such people under damnation with the devil according to the Apostle Peter (2 Peter 2:9-10).

Paul the Apostle wrote that after being saved, people have a will that is bound under the loving control of God according to the Apostle Paul (Philippians 2:13).

Here's Paul from the Bible, again. Overall, Paul uses free will as illusory instead of concrete in Philemon 1:14 - and this is the only occurrence of "free will" that I am aware of in the New American Standard Bible New Testament.

Free-willians do not have a free will, as described by Paul.

Free-willians do have a self will, as described by Peter.

Free-willians gleefully separate themselves from God's will and the Christ of us Christians Who says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) and "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19). We Christians in God's Spirit have a will bound enthusiastically in joy and love to God by God for God through God, as described by Paul.

The above mentioned Apostolic testimony verbatim:

• "the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from temptation, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment for the day of judgment, and especially those who indulge the flesh in its corrupt desires and despise authority; daring, self-willed, they do not tremble when they revile angelic majesties" (2 Peter 2:9-10).
• "it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure" (Philippians 2:13).
• "but without your consent I did not want to do anything, so that your goodness would not be, in effect, by compulsion but of your own free will" (Philemon 1:14).

Every Christian is saved by God's grace for God's glory!
​

And here we have the Truth (John 14:6), the love of Christ controls us believers (2 Corinthians 5:14), His vessels of mercy (Romans 9:21-23)!

 

[Josheb]

Josheb, our point of contention is that you believe "God does not possess a will"

I never said any such thing.

That point of contention is entirely a figment of your imagination. It never happened. You've been unnecessarily adversarial, rude, and disrespectful over something that is not true. Of course God has a will.

GOD HAS A WILL!​

There. I am now on record explicitly, unequivocally, plainly, clearly, irrefutably stating God has a will. Not only do I believe God has a will, I believe God's will is the only "free" will that has ever existed because only He is infinite, almighty, and wholly integrated in thought, affect, will, word, deed, and divine relationship. No creature can lay claim to any of those conditions.

(from your post)

Never happened. I just checked. Not one post states, "God does not have a will." Not one. Not even remotely. Go look.

which contradicts my belief as expounded by my brother Peter "such is the will of God that by doing right you may silence the ignorance of foolish men" (1 Peter 2:15); therefore, Apostolic testimony holds that GOD DOES POSSESS A WILL!

And here we have the Truth (John 14:6), the love of Christ controls us believers (2 Corinthians 5:14), His vessels of mercy (Romans 9:21-23)!

No, what we have is you bearing false witness and treating others disrespectfully because of your misreading of the posts.

What are you going to do about it?

 

[Josheb]

Apostolic testimony holds that GOD DOES POSSESS A WILL!

Yes, it does. However, you have failed to come right out and make that your testimony. I asked, "Does God have a will?" I never said God did not have a will. I asked "Does God have a will because it is the foundation of everything you have posted! It needs to be said, not assumed, especially since you are on record denying God's will is free. If God's will is not free then -by definition - His will is controlled by another and/or not able to do as He wishes. I asked, "Does God have a will?" because I wanted to build consensus but you refused. I asked, "Does God have a will?" because it is good to get that on the record because we should all agree! I asked the question because I know what the "apostolic testimony is, but I do not know what your testimony is. You refused to answer the question when the question could have been answered with a single word, "YES!" in the very next post immediately follow my inquiry.

And now you born false witness claiming I do not believe God has a will when that is not the case. You have born false witness saying my posts say God does NOT have a will when no post of mine states any such thing.

Were the posts misread?
Were assumptions made that should not have been made?
Was this a function of confirmation bias?
Are you lying?


Make it right.

"Josh, I now see you are correct, and you did not ever state God does not have a will. I made a mistake reading the posts that were made worse by wrongly accusing you of something you did not say, and I hope you will forgive me."

Feel free to put that in your own words and remember: what you thought was a point of contention does not exist.

 

[fastfredy0]

The Bondage Of A Man's Will​

Free-willians, in a respect, are correct that "there's no difference between self will and free will", and that respect is that both self will and free will lead to hell.
Now, instead of listening to themselves lie with things like "Free will is all through the scriptures", they need to listen to Apostolic testimony as shown below.

Agreed. Free-willians believe they can will what they desire most which is circular logic.
The “free will” side inserts that extra layer of choice before the wanting. Somehow you're choosing what to want. You're not acting according to your greatest desire in a particular situation. Your will if free from what you want. Your wants are just there, sort of on the table and you're choosing which desire to act upon. This is a circular infinite regress; a logical problem; they are basically saying you chose what you chose. But you don’t choose your choices. You don’t transcend your own existence. Your choices are determined. You just make choices as time unfolds. The “free will” side completely obliterates reality when they try to make your choice transcendent; when they try to put this idea that you're choosing what to choose. Author Unknown

Peter the Apostle wrote that prior to being saved, people have a self will that brings such people under damnation with the devil according to the Apostle Peter (2 Peter 2:9-10).

I don't think people have self will prior to being saved. Their 'will' is part of their creation. All creation is sourced in the Creator.

Here's Paul from the Bible, again. Overall, Paul uses free will as illusory instead of concrete in Philemon 1:14 - and this is the only occurrence of "free will" that I am aware of in the New American Standard Bible New Testament.

Interesting ... I didn't know of that 'free will' verse .... that being said, Paul doesn't define FREE WILL. Maybe it's free willinism or maybe it's Augustine's definition of Free Will which means to do what you desire most at the time. (Aside: I believe there is reference to Free Will offerings in the O.T.)

I think we are in agreement.
Free Willian theology contradicts scripture:

• John 1:12-13
• would give us reason to boast which contradicts Job 41:11
• contradicts many verses sayings God chooses us
• contradicts many verses saying faith is a gift
• contradicts verses saying we are NOT saved by WORKS where Faith would be a work if it was self determined (This is the work of God that you believe)
• yahda, yahda ... I could go on and on ...

 

[Kermos]

I never said any such thing.

That point of contention is entirely a figment of your imagination. It never happened. You've been unnecessarily adversarial, rude, and disrespectful over something that is not true. Of course God has a will.

GOD HAS A WILL!​

There. I am now on record explicitly, unequivocally, plainly, clearly, irrefutably stating God has a will. Not only do I believe God has a will, I believe God's will is the only "free" will that has ever existed because only He is infinite, almighty, and wholly integrated in thought, affect, will, word, deed, and divine relationship. No creature can lay claim to any of those conditions.

Never happened. I just checked. Not one post states, "God does not have a will." Not one. Not even remotely. Go look.

No, what we have is you bearing false witness and treating others disrespectfully because of your misreading of the posts.

What are you going to do about it?

Yes, it does. However, you have failed to come right out and make that your testimony. I asked, "Does God have a will?" I never said God did not have a will. I asked "Does God have a will because it is the foundation of everything you have posted! It needs to be said, not assumed, especially since you are on record denying God's will is free. If God's will is not free then -by definition - His will is controlled by another and/or not able to do as He wishes. I asked, "Does God have a will?" because I wanted to build consensus but you refused. I asked, "Does God have a will?" because it is good to get that on the record because we should all agree! I asked the question because I know what the "apostolic testimony is, but I do not know what your testimony is. You refused to answer the question when the question could have been answered with a single word, "YES!" in the very next post immediately follow my inquiry.

And now you born false witness claiming I do not believe God has a will when that is not the case. You have born false witness saying my posts say God does NOT have a will when no post of mine states any such thing.

Were the posts misread?
Were assumptions made that should not have been made?
Was this a function of confirmation bias?
Are you lying?


Make it right.

"Josh, I now see you are correct, and you did not ever state God does not have a will. I made a mistake reading the posts that were made worse by wrongly accusing you of something you did not say, and I hope you will forgive me."

Feel free to put that in your own words and remember: what you thought was a point of contention does not exist.

You do convey "any such thing" as quoted in your prior post

The will of God is not God's will

There you have ir, you wrote it despite your lie of:

Never happened. I just checked. Not one post states, "God does not have a will." Not one. Not even remotely. Go look.
​

You do convey "any such thing" because of God's Will you wrote:

it is the only free will that exists.

And, using the definition of the word "free" which you provided:

The plain, direct, and explicit meaning of "free" is "autonomous" or "unfettered,"

So, let's use your sanctioned word of "autonomous" as an in-situ replacement for the word "free" within the man-made phrase of "free will":

autonomous will
​

The result is precisely the same as "detached will" because the phrase "autonomous will" indicates a "a will that is autonomous from the host that is supposed to be the host of the autonomous will".

Therefore, you preach that God is detached from Will; in other words, you preach that God does not possess a will because it's a free will.

You convey "The will of God is not God's will".

So the nomenclature of "free will" ("autonomous will") is logically and Spiritually wrong, just as God causes me to proclaim.

See the following for that which Lord Jesus had me write to you previously about your questions:

How about we start with something simple, basic, and fundamental.

Does God have a will? Does God possess volitional agency of any kind to any degree?

Your first question is answered in paragraph 20 where 1 Peter 2:15 is cited in the original post.

Your second question is answered in paragraphs 27 and 28 where John 15:16, John 15:19, and Mark 13:37 are quoted in the original post.

You mentioned "simple, basic, and fundamental" in regard to matters covered in the original post, so it appears to me that the matters covered in the original post exceed your "simple, basic, and fundamental" comprehension.

Did you notice, your post is devoid of Scripture?

And here we have the Truth (John 14:6), the love of Christ controls us believers (2 Corinthians 5:14), His vessels of mercy (Romans 9:21-23)!

And here we have the Truth (John 14:6), the love of Christ controls us believers (2 Corinthians 5:14), His vessels of mercy (Romans 9:21-23)!

 

[Kermos]

Agreed. Free-willians believe they can will what they desire most which is circular logic.
The “free will” side inserts that extra layer of choice before the wanting. Somehow you're choosing what to want. You're not acting according to your greatest desire in a particular situation. Your will if free from what you want. Your wants are just there, sort of on the table and you're choosing which desire to act upon. This is a circular infinite regress; a logical problem; they are basically saying you chose what you chose. But you don’t choose your choices. You don’t transcend your own existence. Your choices are determined. You just make choices as time unfolds. The “free will” side completely obliterates reality when they try to make your choice transcendent; when they try to put this idea that you're choosing what to choose. Author Unknown

I think you are saying "free-willians think they choose to choose to want(will) to choose". If I interpreted that correctly, then I perceive the circular logic.

I don't think people have self will prior to being saved. Their 'will' is part of their creation. All creation is sourced in the Creator.

I believe the default state of a man is the natural man (1 Corinthians 2:14-16), so the natural man is controlled by himself, that is, he is self-willed (2 Peter 2:9-10).

I am curious, who or what do you believe controls the unsaved man?

Interesting ... I didn't know of that 'free will' verse .... that being said, Paul doesn't define FREE WILL. Maybe it's free willinism or maybe it's Augustine's definition of Free Will which means to do what you desire most at the time.

I question the accuracy of the translation "free will" in Philemon 1:14.

(Aside: I believe there is reference to Free Will offerings in the O.T.)

The English translation of "freewill offering" is an inaccurate translation, and the below goes into an in-depth examination of the Hebrew.

First, "freewill offering" is in the Old Testament, so this is not the New Testament. There are differences.

Second, as God's chosen people, the Israelites had instruction about the "freewill offering" in the Old Covenant.

Third, the definition behind "freewill offering" must be examined according the source word נְדָבָ֖ה in the Hebrew of the Old Testament. This word נְדָבָ֖ה (nedabah) has a Strong's number of 5071.

DEFINITION: from H5068; properly (abstractly) spontaneity, or (adjectively) spontaneous; also (concretely) a spontaneous or (by inference, in plural) abundant gift:-free(-will) offering, freely, plentiful, voluntary(-ily, offering), willing(-ly), offering) (this Strong's defintion obtained from BlueLetterBible.org 5071).

Fourth, the Hebrew word נְדָבָ֖ה (Strong's 5071 - nedabah - נדבה - ndbh - impelled offering) has a root Hebrew word of נָדַב (Strong's 5068 - nadab - נדב - ndb - to incite, impel)
SO we find "impel" which defines as "to drive" and/or "to force" as the root of nedabah, not "freewill".

Fifth, Strong et al included a separate Aramaic word entry of נְדַב (Strong's 5069 - nedab - נדב - ndb - to volunteer, offer freely) which means "be (or give) liberal(-ly)"
AND this Aramaic word corresponds to the root Hebrew word of נָדַב (Strong's 5068 - nadab - נדב - ndb - to incite, impel)
AND we find the Aramaic word נְדַב (Strong's 5069 - nedab - נדב - ndb - to volunteer, offer freely) occurs only in the Book of Ezra which is at least 400 years after the Exodus which means the Aramaic word נְדַב (Strong's 5069 - nedab - נדב - ndb - to volunteer, offer freely) is not contemporary with the Exodus, Biblically
SO the Aramaic word נְדַב (Strong's 5069 - nedab - נדב - ndb - to volunteer, offer freely) means a "generous offer", not a "freewill offer", but truly "offer freely", "offer abundantly", "liberally offer", "generous offering", or "gratuitous offering".

Sixth, a highly related Hebrew proper noun of נָדָב Strong's 5070 - Nadab - נדב - ndb - an Israelite name, generous, noble) exists for the Hebrew word נְדָבָ֖ה (Strong's 5071- nedabah - נדבה - ndbh - impelled generous offering)
SO the Hebrew word נְדָבָ֖ה (Strong's 5071 - nedabah - נדבה - ndbh - impelled generous offering) includes the denotation of "generous" (plentiful, freely, abundant)
AND historically we find the account of Nadab and Abihu the sons of Aaron, Moses' brother, in Leviticus 10:1-7
SO we find that the meaning of "generous" is contemporary with the occurrence of the Hebrew word נְדָבָ֖ה (Strong's 5071 - nedabah - נדבה - ndbh - impelled generous offering) in the timeframe of the Exodus (as in Exodus 28:1, Exodus 35:29, and Exodus 36:3-6), not "freewill", but truly "impelled generous offering".

Seventh, the concept of "willing" potentially could be adjunct with the Hebrew word נְדָבָ֖ה (Strong's 5071 - nedabah - נדבה - ndbh - impelled generous offering)
YET the concept of "impel" eliminates the potential for "free" as in "unattached" thereby eliminating "freewill" from the definition of the Hebrew word נְדָבָ֖ה (Strong's 5071 - nedabah - נדבה - ndbh - impelled generous offering)
AND "impelled" integrates the concept of "forced"
SO if a "wiiling" heart is part of the Hebrew word נְדָבָ֖ה (Strong's 5071 - nedabah - נדבה - ndbh - impelled generous offering)
THEN God controls the willing heart (Proverbs 21:1, Ezra 6:22, Philippians 2:13).

Eighth, people who practice the lawlessness of insisting upon converting the word "freely" (plentiful, generous) into the word "freewill" (unattached will) with regard to the Hebrew word נְדָבָ֖ה (Strong's 5071 - nedabah - נדבה - ndbh - impelled generous offering) are people who add to the Word of God
AND it is written "do not add to His words or He will reprove you, and you will be proved a liar" (Proverbs 30:6).

Nineth, the definition behind "freewill offering" must be examined according the source word αφαίρεμα in the Greek of the Old Testament in the Septuagint. This word αφαίρεμα does not appear in the New Testament, so it does not have a Strong's number, but it has been assigned a number of "850.4" in the Apostolic Bible Polyglot.

DEFINITION: That which is cut off as a choice part; a choice portion; a cut-away portion.

Tenth, it is written in the Old Testament "The Israelites, all the men and women, whose heart moved them to bring [material] for all the work, which YHWH had commanded through Moses to be done, brought a freewill offering to YHWH" (Exodus 35:29).
AND there is a Hebrew word for "choose", but it is not here, so it does not state "who chose to bring", yet it does state "whose heart moved them to bring"
AND this offering is for material for the work as opposed to choosing toward God
AND this is the first occurrence of "freewill offering" in the NASB
AND the people brought abundant offerings for it is written "They received from Moses all the contributions which the sons of Israel had brought to perform the work in the construction of the sanctuary. And they still [continued] bringing to him freewill offerings every morning. And all the skillful men who were performing all the work of the sanctuary came, each from the work which he was performing, and they said to Moses, 'The people are bringing much more than enough for the construction work which the LORD commanded [us] to perform.' So Moses issued a command, and a proclamation was circulated throughout the camp, saying, 'Let no man or woman any longer perform work for the contributions of the sanctuary.' Thus the people were restrained from bringing [any more]" (Exodus 36:3-6)
SO it is clear that the synonyms נְדָבָ֖ה (nedabah) in Hebrew and αφαίρεμα in Greek denote a heartfelt gratuitous offering.

Eleventh, based upon Biblical usage neither of these words translate to "freewill" as in "freewill choice toward God":

• נְדָבָ֖ה (nedabah) in Hebrew
• αφαίρεμα in Greek

Continued to post #19

 

[Kermos]

Continued from post #18

Twelvth, based upon definitions, neither of these words translate to "freewill" as in "freewill choice toward God":

• נְדָבָ֖ה (nedabah) in Hebrew
• αφαίρεμα in Greek

Thirteenth, "freewill" is an inappropriate translation of נְדָבָ֖ה (nedabah) in Hebrew.

Fourteenth, based upon both Scriptural usage and definitions, both of these words translate to spontaneous heartfelt gratuitous premier portion offering:

• נְדָבָ֖ה (nedabah) in Hebrew
• αφαίρεμα in Greek

Jesus and the Apostles quoted out of the Septuagint as recorded in the New Testament.

The Septuagint uses the word αφαίρεμα which translates to "the choice portion" which references an offering.

The Brenton Septuagint Translation version of Exodus 35:29 reads as "And every man and woman whose mind inclined them to come in and do all the works as many as the Lord appointed them to do by Moses- they the children of Israel brought an offering to the Lord".

The Brenton Septuagint Translation version contains "an offering" with no mention of "freewill".

Freewill is not a part of the Hebrew word נדבה (Strong's 5071 - ndbh) of which the English Bible translators/linguists moved from "freely" (plentiful, generous, abundant) over the centuries into "freewill", so "freewill offering" is not found in the Old Testament, but "impelled generous offering" is found in the Old Testament, and this Scriptural explanation demonstrates this fact.

I think we are in agreement.
Free Willian theology contradicts scripture:

• John 1:12-13
• would give us reason to boast which contradicts Job 41:11
• contradicts many verses sayings God chooses us
• contradicts many verses saying faith is a gift
• contradicts verses saying we are NOT saved by WORKS where Faith would be a work if it was self determined (This is the work of God that you believe)
• yahda, yahda ... I could go on and on ...

Yes, free-willian philosophy contradicts Scripture, and I also believe free-willian theology denies Christ.

And here we have the Truth (John 14:6), the love of Christ controls us believers (2 Corinthians 5:14), His vessels of mercy (Romans 9:21-23)!

 

[fastfredy0]

I think you are saying "free-willians think they choose to choose to want(will) to choose". If I interpreted that correctly, then I perceive the circular logic.

Agreed, "free-willians think they choose to choose to want(will) to choose".
Agreed, this is circular logic. It's not my logic, it's the logic of "free-willians".

I believe the default state of a man is the natural man (1 Corinthians 2:14-16), so the natural man is controlled by himself, that is, he is self-willed (2 Peter 2:9-10).

I am curious, who or what do you believe controls the unsaved man?

I believe in hard determinism. I find the compatibilists become "free-willians" when it comes to the origin of sin. (All theodocies are somewhat distasteful).
When it comes to man's "default state" I believe God gave man his "default state"; otherwise, you're back to circular logic.
Aside: Sometimes I pray to be forgiven for concepts I believe to be true but I know could be wrong ... something like Job who got 'raked over the coals' for his concepts of God though he was well meaning IMO.

I question the accuracy of the translation "free will" in Philemon 1:14.

Hmmm, interesting point. Seeing as the NASB is the only version to use "FREE WILL" it seems highly suspect.

The English translation of "freewill offering" is an inaccurate translation, and the below goes into an in-depth examination of the Hebrew.

WOW ... you knowledge on the subject dwarfs mine. (not the it's an important doctrine... giggle)