• **Notifications**: Notifications can be dismissed by clicking on the "x" on the righthand side of the notice.
  • **New Style**: You can now change style options. Click on the paintbrush at the bottom of this page.
  • **Donations**: If the Lord leads you please consider helping with monthly costs and up keep on our Forum. Click on the Donate link In the top menu bar. Thanks
  • **New Blog section**: There is now a blog section. Check it out near the Private Debates forum or click on the Blog link in the top menu bar.
  • Welcome Visitors! Join us and be blessed while fellowshipping and celebrating our Glorious Salvation In Christ Jesus.

The Trinity

John 14:28
Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.
Who is equal to God?

Philippians 2:6 Commentary.

Isaiah 40:25
“To whom will you compare me? Or who is my equal?” says the Holy One.

Isaiah 46:5
“With whom will you compare me or count me equal? To whom will you liken me that we may be compared?

Philippians 2:5-7
5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Yahshua: 6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: 7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

That word "equal" could be translated in other words, such as, "equated," or "counted," or "equality." If Yahshua states that "The Father is greater than I" and refers to his Father in prayer as "You, the only true God." It then is obvious that he's not equal to the one who sent him. "God exalted him," he did not exalt himself.
Here is an alternate reading of Philippians 2:6. Who being in the form of God did not think equality with God as obtainable.
The alternate translation must be correct, because thinking of yourself as equal to God is not humble. Besides that, it would be a contradiction to other scriptures.
You just claimed Jesus wasn't a servant...will you like to retract that?

You also failed to mention the KENOSIS...Have you learned what the kenosis is yet? I'm kinda thinking you don't as you skip right over that aspect of the Word who is God and became flesh life.
John 10:29
My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand.

John 13:16
Very truly I tell you, no servant is greater than his master, nor is a messenger greater than the one who sent him.

John 14:28
“You heard me say, ‘I am going away and I am coming back to you.’ If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I.

John 17:3
Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.
 
You also failed to mention the KENOSIS...Have you learned what the kenosis is yet? I'm kinda thinking you don't as you skip right over that aspect of the Word who is God and became flesh life.
kemonsis the emptying out of the Holy Spirit as He pours his Spirit on dying mankind in jeopardy of his own Spirit life.

The Son of man Jesus had no power of his own living in dying flesh and blood What applies to him applies to us today.

2 Corinthians 4:7 But we have this treasure in jars of clay to show that this all-surpassing power is from God and not from us
 
kemonsis the emptying out of the Holy Spirit as He pours his Spirit on dying mankind in jeopardy of his own Spirit life.
Incorrect.
The Son of man Jesus had no power of his own living in dying flesh and blood What applies to him applies to us today.

2 Corinthians 4:7 But we have this treasure in jars of clay to show that this all-surpassing power is from God and not from us
 
Christianity comes from Judaism.

2 Kings 19:30
Once more a remnant of the kingdom of Judah will take root below and bear fruit above.

Psalm 80:15
the root your right hand has planted, the son you have raised up for yourself.

Isaiah 11:1
A shoot will come up from the stump of Jesse; from his roots a Branch will bear fruit.

Isaiah 11:10
In that day the Root of Jesse will stand as a banner for the peoples; the nations will rally to him, and his resting place will be glorious.

Isaiah 53:2
He grew up before him like a tender shoot, and like a root out of dry ground. He had no beauty or majesty to attract us to him, nothing in his appearance that we should desire him.

Zechariah 3:8
“‘Listen, High Priest of Joshua, you and your associates seated before you, who are men symbolic of things to come: I am going to bring my servant, the Branch.

Zechariah 6:12
Tell him this is what the Lord Almighty says: ‘Here is the man whose name is the Branch, and he will branch out from his place and build the temple of the Lord.

John 15:6
If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned.

Romans 11:18
do not consider yourself to be superior to those other branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you.
Only cos Christ is the lion of the tribe of judah

Christ reformed the old covenant into the new heb 9:10

Christ replaced David as king
The new covenant replaced the old
The kingdom taken from them Matt 21:43 given to Peter and the apostles lk 22:29
The church replaced Israel
Christian’s replaced the jews as the chosen people
Gal 4 and 1 pet 2:29

Christians cannot keep the Jewish practices cos they pointed to Christ and to keep them would deny Christ has come!
1 Jn 4:3 Jn 1:16-17
Titus 2:11
For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
 
You just claimed Jesus wasn't a servant...will you like to retract that?

You also failed to mention the KENOSIS...Have you learned what the kenosis is yet? I'm kinda thinking you don't as you skip right over that aspect of the Word who is God and became flesh life.
Servant of God



Scriptures of God and Disciples calling Christ, The Servant of God.



Servant Yahshua

Isaiah 42:1
“Here is my servant, whom I uphold, my chosen one in whom I delight; I will put my Spirit on him, and he will bring justice to the nations.

Isaiah 49:6
he says: “It is too small a thing for you to be my servant to restore the tribes of Jacob and bring back those of Israel I have kept. I will also make you a light for the Gentiles, that my salvation may reach to the ends of the earth.”

Isaiah 52:13
See, my servant will act wisely; he will be raised and lifted up and highly exalted.

Zechariah 3:8
“‘Listen, High Priest of Joshua, you and your associates seated before you, who are men symbolic of things to come: I am going to bring my servant, the Branch.

Acts 3:13
The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the God of our fathers, has glorified his servant Yahshua. You handed him over to be killed, and you disowned him before Pilate, though he had decided to let him go.

Acts 3:26
When God raised up his servant, he sent him first to you to bless you by turning each of you from your wicked ways.”

Acts 4:27
Indeed Herod and Pontius Pilate met together with the Gentiles and the people of Israel in this city to conspire against your holy servant Yahshua, whom you anointed.

Acts 4:30
Stretch out your hand to heal and perform signs and wonders through the name of your holy servant Yahshua.”
You just claimed Jesus wasn't a servant...will you like to retract that?

You also failed to mention the KENOSIS...Have you learned what the kenosis is yet? I'm kinda thinking you don't as you skip right over that aspect of the Word who is God and became flesh life.

Kenosis

In Christian theology, kenosis is the "self-emptying" of Jesus. The word ἐκένωσεν is used in the Epistle to the Philippians: "[Jesus] made himself nothing", or "[he] emptied himself", using the verb form κενόω, meaning "to empty". The exact meaning varies among theologians.
 
Language gendering comes from Paganism. Sophia means wisdom.
DUDE.....the word HER is used. The text is about "wisdom"...Identifed as a HER. The verse isn't about the creation of Jesus.

Address the "her"...or kindly go away.
 
Revealed by Christ eph 4:5 Jude 1:3 and taught by holy mother church Matt 28:19
Matthew 28:19
New International Version (NIV)

19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,...

Eusebius quotes three different times Matthew 28:19 as, Quote: "Go ye and make disciples of all the nations in my name."

And then our other scriptures say:

Acts 2:38
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Yahshua Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Acts 4:12
Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

Acts 8:16
(For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Yahshua.)

Acts 10:48
And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.

Acts 19:4
Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Yahshua.

Acts 19:5
When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Yahshua.

Acts 22:16
And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

Romans 6:3
Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Yahshua Christ were baptized into his death?

Galatians 3:27
For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.


In the only codices which would be even likely to preserve an older reading, namely the Sinaitic Syriac and the oldest Latin Manuscript, the pages are GONE which contained the end of Matthew 28. (F.C. Conybeare).
 
Revealed by Christ eph 4:5 Jude 1:3 and taught by holy mother church Matt 28:19
History of the Trinitarian doctrine.



The Encyclopedia of Religion and Ethics: In regards to Matthew 28:19, it says:" It is the central piece of evidence for the traditional (Trinitarian) view. If it were undisputed, this would, of course, be decisive, but its trustworthiness is impugned on grounds of textual criticism, literary criticism and historical criticism".



Edmund Schlink, The Doctrine of Baptism, page 28: "The baptismal command in its Matthew 28:19 form can not be the historical origin of Christian baptism. At the very least, it must be assumed that the text has been transmitted in a form changed by the [Catholic] church."



The Tyndale New Testament Commentaries, I, 275: "It is often affirmed that the words in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost are not the exact words of Jesus, but a later liturgical addition."



The Catholic Encyclopedia, II, page 263: "The baptismal formula was changed from the name of Jesus Christ to the words Father, Son, and Holy Spirit by the Catholic Church in the second century."



Hastings Dictionary of the Bible 1963, page 1015: "The Trinity is not demonstrable by logic or by Scriptural proofs, The term Trias was first used by Theophilus of Antioch in (AD 180), (The term Trinity) is not found in Scripture." "The chief Trinitarian text in the New Testament is the baptismal formula in Matthew 28:19. This late post-resurrection saying, is not found in any other Gospel or anywhere else in the New Testament, it has been viewed by some scholars as an interpolation into Matthew. It has also been pointed out that the idea of making disciples is continued in teaching them, so that the intervening reference to baptism with its Trinitarian formula was perhaps a later insertion. Eusebius's text ("in my name" rather than in the name of the Trinity) has had certain advocates. (Although the Trinitarian formula is now found in the modern-day book of Matthew), this does not guarantee its source in the historical teaching of Jesus. It is doubtless better to view the (Trinitarian) formula as derived from early (Catholic) Christian, perhaps Syrian or Palestinian, baptismal usage (cf. Didache 7:1-4), and as a brief summary of the (Catholic) Church's teaching about God, Christ, and the Spirit."



The Schaff Herzog Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge: "Jesus, however, cannot have given his disciples this Trinitarian order of baptism after His resurrection; for the New Testament knows only one baptism in the name of Jesus. (Acts. 2:38; 8:16; 10:43; 19:5, Gal. 3:27; Rom. 6:3; 1 Cor. 1:13-15), which still occurs even in the second and third centuries, while the Trinitarian formula occurs only in Matt. 28:19, and then only again in the Didache 7:1 and Justin, Apol. 1:61. Finally the distinctly liturgical character of the formula is strange; it was not the way of Jesus to make such formulas. The formal authenticity of Matt. 28:19 must be disputed." page 435.



The Jerusalem Bible, a scholarly Catholic work, states: "It may be that this formula, (Triune Matthew 28:19) so far as the fullness of its expression is concerned, is a reflection of the (Man-made) liturgical usage established later in the primitive (Catholic) community. It will be remembered that Acts speaks of baptizing "in the name of Jesus."



The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia, Vol. 4, page 2637, Under "Baptism," says: "Matthew 28:19 in particular only canonizes a later ecclesiastical situation, that its universalism is contrary to the facts of early Christian history, and its Trinitarian formula is foreign to the mouth of Jesus."



New Revised Standard Version: In regards to Matthew 28:19. "Modern critics claim this formula is falsely ascribed to Jesus and that it represents later (Catholic) church tradition, for nowhere in the book of Acts (or any other book of the Bible) is baptism performed with the name of the Trinity."



James Moffett's New Testament Translation: In a footnote on page 64 about Matthew 28:19 he makes this statement: "It may be that this (Trinitarian) formula, so far as the fullness of its expression is concerned, is a reflection of the (Catholic) liturgical usage established later in the primitive (Catholic) community. It will be remembered that Acts speaks of baptizing "in the name of Jesus." Acts 1:5.



Tom Harpur, former Religion Editor of the Toronto Star. In his "For Christ's sake," page 103. He informs us of these facts: "All but the most conservative scholars agree that at least the latter part of this command [Triune part of Matthew 28:19] was inserted later. The formula occurs nowhere else in the New Testament, and we know from the evidence available that the earliest Church did not baptize people using these words ("in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost") baptism was "into" or "in" the name of Jesus alone. It is argued that the verse originally read "baptizing them in My Name" and then was changed to work in the [later Catholic Trinitarian] dogma. In fact, the first view put forward by German critical scholars as well as the Unitarians in the nineteenth century, was stated as the accepted position of mainline scholarship as long ago as 1919, when Peake's commentary was first published. "The Church of the first days (AD 33) did not observe this world-wide (Trinitarian) commandment; even if they knew it. The command to baptize into the threefold [Trinity] name is a late doctrinal addition."



The Bible Commentary 1919 page 723: Dr. Peake makes it clear that: "The command to baptize into the threefold name is a late doctrinal addition. Instead of the words baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost we should probably read simply-"into My Name."



Theology of the New Testament: By R. Bultmann, 1951. Page 133 under Kerygma of the Hellenistic Church and the Sacraments. The historical fact that the verse Matthew 28:19 was altered is openly confessed to very plainly. "As to the rite of baptism, it was normally consummated as a bath in which the one receiving baptism completely submerged, and if possible in flowing water as the allusions of Acts 8:36, Heb. 10:22, Barn. 11:11 permit us to gather, and as Didache. 7:1-3 specifically says. According to the last passage, (the apocryphal Catholic Didache) suffices in case of the need if water is three times poured on the head. The one baptizing names over the one being baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ." later changed to the name of the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit."



Doctrine and Practice in the Early Church: By Dr. Stuart G. Hall 1992, pages 20 and 21. Professor Stuart G. Hall was the former Chair of Ecclesiastical History at King's College, London England. Dr. Hall makes the factual statement that Catholic Trinitarian Baptism was not the original form of Christian Baptism, rather the original was Jesus name baptism. "In the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit," although those words were not used, as they later are, as a formula. Not all baptisms fitted this rule." Dr Hall further, states: "More common and perhaps more ancient was the simple, "In the name of the Lord Jesus or, Jesus Christ." This practice was known among Marcionites and Orthodox; it is certainly the subject of controversy in Rome and Africa about 254, as the anonymous tract De rebaptismate ("On rebaptism") shows."



The Catholic University of America in Washington, D. C. 1923, New Testament Studies Number 5: The Lord's Command To Baptize a Historical Critical Investigation. By Bernard Henry Cuneo. Page 27. "The passages in Acts and the Letters of St. Paul. These passages seem to point to the earliest form as baptism in the name of the Lord." Also we find. "Is it possible to reconcile these facts with the belief that Christ commanded his disciples to baptize in the trine form! Had Christ given such a command, it is urged the Apostolic Church would have followed him, and we should have some trace of this obedience in the New Testament. No such trace can be found. The only explanation of this silence, according to the anti-traditional view, is this the short christological (Jesus Name) formula was (the) original, and the longer trine formula was a later development."



A History of the Christian Church: by Williston Walker, former Professor of Ecclesiastical History at Yale University 1953. On page 95 we see the historical facts again declared. "With the early disciples generally baptism was "in the name of Jesus Christ." There is no mention of baptism in the name of the Trinity in the New Testament, except in the command attributed to Christ in Matthew 28:19. That text is early, (but not the original) however. It underlies the Apostles' Creed, and the practice recorded (or interpolated) in the Teaching, (or the Didache) and by Justin. The Christian leaders of the third century retained the recognition of the earlier form, and, in Rome at least, baptism in the name of Christ was deemed valid, if irregular, certainly from the time of Bishop Stephen (254 -257)."



"The Demonstratio Evangelica" by Eusebius. Eusebius was the Church historian and Bishop of Caesarea. On page 152 Eusebius quotes the early book of Matthew that he had in his library in Caesarea. According to this eyewitness of an unaltered Book of Matthew that could have been the original book or the first copy of the original of Matthew. Eusebius informs us of Yahshua’s actual words to his disciples in the original text of Matthew 28:19: "With one word and voice He said to His disciples: "Go, and make disciples of all nations in my name, teaching them to observe all things what so ever I have commanded you."
 

Kenosis

In Christian theology, kenosis is the "self-emptying" of Jesus. The word ἐκένωσεν is used in the Epistle to the Philippians: "[Jesus] made himself nothing", or "[he] emptied himself", using the verb form κενόω, meaning "to empty". The exact meaning varies among theologians.
And in this state of "self emptying"....Jesus presented the Father as the one true God...A God who is the true God and not some false idol God.

Jesus didn't walk the earth in His majesty of being God...but in His kenosis was teaching us a lesson on how to have God work through us.
 
DUDE.....the word HER is used. The text is about "wisdom"...Identifed as a HER. The verse isn't about the creation of Jesus.

Address the "her"...or kindly go away.
Wake up.
No one is calling Yahshua a she.

Proverbs 9:1
Wisdom has built her house; she has set up its seven pillars.
Proverbs 8:1
Does not wisdom call out? Does not understanding raise her voice?
Luke 7:35
But (Sophia / wisdom) is proved right by all her children.
 
You are...


Do you see the word "she"?

Ridiculous to say that 'she' is Christ. Everyone knows that pronoun is about Wisdom which is a metaphor image. The reason for being female is to contrast the destructive woman of ch 7 just before. You simply are not familiar with texts and contexts that you talk about.
 
Then it must be opposed if not compatibile with the Christian faith!

The Jews who rejected their own salvation?
The Jews who killed Christ?

Pagan beliefs and practices are not compatible with the Christian faith and the true church has no paganism! Only accusations!
 
That's your statement of faith coming from your Pope a daysman . Not Christ's statement faith as it is written

OK the true Faithfull Creator. . our Holy Father the holy Spirit of Sonship performing the work of His Holy Spirit. Yoked with dying mankind he makes our daily burden lighter as we pray as he give us the daily bread (sola scriptura) .

Sounds like one God to me.Not a legion of patrons saint gods called fathers

No room for a queen mother of heaven .

The loving commandment. Matthew 23:9 . will you obey it today or harden your heart? ????

Call no man as dying mankind on earth His Holiness , Bishop of Rome, Vicar of Jesus Christ, Successor of the Prince of the Apostles, Supreme Pontiff of the Universal Church, Primate of Italy, Archbishop and Metropolitan of the Roman Province, Sovereign of the Vatican City State, Servant of the servants of God".
That’s from this site’s statement of faith not mine

And in the line of David the mother of the king is always queen and intercedes with her son the king on. Behalf of her people
 
Reply to CherubRam #250

Acts 2:38


Baptism:

Matt 28:19

The holy church obeys the command Of Jesus!

Ephesians 5:24 Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ…

Jn 15:5 apart from me you can do nothing so remain in Christ!

Keep his commandment!

Matt 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

John 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

1 Jn 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

1 Jn 2:5 But who so keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.

His word: Matt 28:19

Acts 2:38 the command to be baptized is in the name of Jesus not the baptism itself!
 
Jesus is the Son but His Father glorified Him.

So you are wrong.
I was only acknowledging another point showing the Son is God.

I don't actually argue with unbelievers about that. Once you reject the Word was God, there's really nothing more to argue with.

It would be like trying to argue with someone over basic math: 2+2=4.
 
Ridiculous to say that 'she' is Christ. Everyone knows that pronoun is about Wisdom which is a metaphor image. The reason for being female is to contrast the destructive woman of ch 7 just before. You simply are not familiar with texts and contexts that you talk about.
There are some here who say that chapter is about the formation of "Christ"

Apparently you don't.
 
There are some here who say that chapter is about the formation of "Christ"

Apparently you don't.

What is a "formation" of Christ? Did he evolve?

It is a contrast to the adulterous woman in the preceding.
 
Back
Top