The "Times of the Gentiles"

[Hobie]

When Jesus is asked about the fall of Jerusalem and the time of his return by his disciples, Jesus talks about both. He says that there will be wars and catastrophes, persecutions, and betrayals, but that is not the end. Then He tells of Jerusalem's destruction, and then He speaks about the end times before his Second Coming.

Luke 21:24-28 King James Version (KJV)
24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

I came across a question on this issue of the "Times of the Gentiles" and looked up to see what I could find, and found very little. No one seems to have a full grasp on it although basically it appears mostly fall into a prophetic timeline. Here is one timeline...

"The same Jerusalem which "was compassed with armies" in A.D. 66 (Luke 21: 20), which was
laid "even with the ground" along with her "children within" (Luke 19: 43-44), and whose
people (the Jews) were "led away captive into all nations" in A.D. 70 (Luke 21: 24a), is the same
Jerusalem that would be "trodden down of the Gentiles (Gr. - ethnē - "nations"), until the times
of the Gentiles (nations) be fulfilled" (Luke 21:24b). Historically, the capture and destruction of
the city by the Romans in A.D. 70 began a centuries long "trodding down" of it by the "ethnē" (nations). This non-Jewish governmental domination of Old Jerusalem would continue throughout this allotted time period until the Jewish people would once again gain governmental control of the city."
.....http://www.adventistlaymen.com/WWN%20ARTICLES%20IOWA/WWN%20IOWA_10(16)_11(16).pdf

The problem is that Jews have not gotten complete governmental control of Jerusalem until they have the authority to rebuild the Temple on the Temple Mount. And that they will never have, since the Temple Mount is the site of the al-Aqsa mosque and constitute one of the three holiest shrines in the Muslim world. The Jews may manage the city, but it will never really belong to them until they can rebuild the Temple, which is not possible. But we see a 'New Jerusalem' in scripture..
Revelation 3:12
Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

Revelation 21:2
And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

The destruction of Jerusalem and its Temple occurred because of disobedience of the Jews, and to be restored would require repentance and obedience. Which the Jews, in their blind rejection of Christ, stubbornly refuse. So scripture shows that God will have to clean the slate of the literal Jerusalem and bring in and replace it with a new one coming from heaven..

 

[3 Resurrections]

Historically, the capture and destruction of
the city by the Romans in A.D. 70 began a centuries long "trodding down" of it by the "ethnē" (nations). This non-Jewish governmental domination of Old Jerusalem would continue throughout this allotted time period until the Jewish people would once again gain governmental control of the city."

You haven't listed the pertinent verse which limits just how long that "treading underfoot" of Jerusalem would last. This is found in Revelation 11:2. "But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months." Scripture does not say this treading underfoot of Jerusalem would last for centuries.

This phrase "times (plural) of the Gentiles" is reflective of Daniel 12:7's terminology of "a time, times, and half a time", which is a duration of 3-1/2 year or...forty two months.

It wasn't the Romans who did this "treading down" of the city of Jerusalem. Rome wasn't anywhere in Jerusalem from the time Cestius Gallus left it in late AD 66 until the spring of AD 70 when Titus arrived. In between those years, for 42 months, the Zealot leaders who came from "Galilee of the GENTILES" were holding Jerusalem under siege conditions themselves.

 

[Hobie]

You haven't listed the pertinent verse which limits just how long that "treading underfoot" of Jerusalem would last. This is found in Revelation 11:2. "But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months." Scripture does not say this treading underfoot of Jerusalem would last for centuries.

This phrase "times (plural) of the Gentiles" is reflective of Daniel 12:7's terminology of "a time, times, and half a time", which is a duration of 3-1/2 year or...forty two months.

It wasn't the Romans who did this "treading down" of the city of Jerusalem. Rome wasn't anywhere in Jerusalem from the time Cestius Gallus left it in late AD 66 until the spring of AD 70 when Titus arrived. In between those years, for 42 months, the Zealot leaders who came from "Galilee of the GENTILES" were holding Jerusalem under siege conditions themselves.

This then would be prophetic time as the "time, times, and half a time" or forty two months is set up as a time of 1260 years not days. Look as using the Day-Year Principle, the "time, times and half a time" (i.e. 1+2+0.5=3.5), "1,260 days" and "42 months" mentioned in Daniel and Revelation to be references to represent a period of 1260 years (based on the 360 day Jewish Year multiplied by 3.5).

These time periods occur seven times in scripture:

• Daniel 7:25, "time, times and a half".
• Daniel 12:7, "time, times and a half".
• Revelation 11:2, "42 months".
• Revelation 11:3, "1260 days".
• Revelation 12:6, "1260 days".
• Revelation 12:14, "time, times and a half".
• Revelation 13:5, "42 months".

So the "1,260 days"/"time, times and a half"/"42 months", are prophetic and are 1260 years which spanned the Dark Ages and concluded at the end of that era. Here is a study on it... http://day-of-atonement.org/the-1260-day-prophecy-of-daniel-and-revelation/

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings Hobie,

I came across a question on this issue of the "Times of the Gentiles" and looked up to see what I could find, and found very little.

I consider that the Times of the Gentiles is the period of time from the capture of Judah and Jerusalem by Nebuchadnezzar, King of Babylon unto the return of Jesus and the overthrow of the northern invader of Ezekiel 38 and Daniel 11:40-45. Jesus will then build the Temple of Ezekiel 40-48 and the nations and individuals that survive the Battle of Armageddon and the judgements of that day will come up to Jerusalem to learn God's ways, with Jesus as the King / Priest on the Temple Throne of David in Jerusalem for the 1000 years.
Isaiah 2:1–4 (KJV): 1 The word that Isaiah the son of Amoz saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem. 2 And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD’S house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it. 3 And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem. 4 And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

Daniel 2:35,44–45 (KJV): 35 Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth. 44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever. 45 Forasmuch as thou sawest that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it brake in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold; the great God hath made known to the king what shall come to pass hereafter: and the dream is certain, and the interpretation thereof sure.

Zechariah 14:16 (KJV): 16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.

Jesus in Luke 21 alludes to Daniel 8 when he speaks of the overthrow of Jerusalem in AD 70:
Daniel 8:13–14 (KJV): 13 Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot? 14 And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.

Matthew 24:15–16 (KJV): 15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand. 16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

Luke 21:20–24 (KJV): 20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. 21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto. 22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. 23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people. 24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

A major fulfillment of the 2300 days (years) of Daniel 8 is from the major event of Daniel 8, the defeat of the Persian Ram by the Grecian Goat in BC 334-333 and the 2300 years bring us to AD 1967 when the Jews recaptured Jerusalem.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Marilyn C]

I came across a question on this issue of the "Times of the Gentiles" and looked up to see what I could find, and found very little. No one seems to have a full grasp on it although basically it appears mostly fall into a prophetic timeline.

 

[3 Resurrections]

So the "1,260 days"/"time, times and a half"/"42 months", are prophetic and are 1260 years which spanned the Dark Ages and concluded at the end of that era. Here is a study on it... http://day-of-atonement.org/the-1260-day-prophecy-of-daniel-and-revelation/

Hobie, you are making an exegetical leap which Daniel does not make in this particular section. In the case of the 70-week prophecy, we know that was going to be weeks of years to predict the coming of Messiah the Prince, but Daniel does not employ this interpretive method in every case. Sometimes he specifies that his "weeks" are weeks of DAYS, and not years.

The same applies for the "time, times, and half a time" (3-1/2 years) it would take to "shatter the power of the holy people". This was not multiplied into years in this case. If it did, as you are proposing, then it would take multiplied centuries to "shatter the power of the holy people", as Daniel predicted would take place during this specified "time, times, and half a time" in Daniel 12:7.

 

[Eleanor]

When Jesus is asked about the fall of Jerusalem and the time of his return by his disciples, Jesus talks about both. He says that there will be wars and catastrophes, persecutions, and betrayals, but that is not the end. Then He tells of Jerusalem's destruction, and then He speaks about the end times before his Second Coming.

Luke 21:24-28 King James Version (KJV)
24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

I came across a question on this issue of the "Times of the Gentiles" and looked up to see what I could find, and found very little. No one seems to have a full grasp on it although basically it appears mostly fall into a prophetic timeline. Here is one timeline...

"The same Jerusalem which "was compassed with armies" in A.D. 66 (Luke 21: 20), which was
laid "even with the ground" along with her "children within" (Luke 19: 43-44), and whose
people (the Jews) were "led away captive into all nations" in A.D. 70 (Luke 21: 24a), is the same
Jerusalem that would be "trodden down of the Gentiles (Gr. - ethnē - "nations"), until the times
of the Gentiles (nations) be fulfilled" (Luke 21:24b). Historically, the capture and destruction of
the city by the Romans in A.D. 70 began a centuries long "trodding down" of it by the "ethnē" (nations). This non-Jewish governmental domination of Old Jerusalem would continue throughout this allotted time period until the Jewish people would once again gain governmental control of the city."
.....http://www.adventistlaymen.com/WWN%20ARTICLES%20IOWA/WWN%20IOWA_10(16)_11(16).pdf

The problem is that Jews have not gotten complete governmental control of Jerusalem until they have the authority to rebuild the Temple on the Temple Mount. And that they will never have, since the Temple Mount is the site of the al-Aqsa mosque and constitute one of the three holiest shrines in the Muslim world. The Jews may manage the city, but it will never really belong to them until they can rebuild the Temple, which is not possible. But we see a 'New Jerusalem' in scripture..
Revelation 3:12
Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

Revelation 21:2
And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

The destruction of Jerusalem and its Temple occurred because of disobedience of the Jews, and to be restored would require repentance and obedience. Which the Jews, in their blind rejection of Christ, stubbornly refuse. So scripture shows that God will have to clean the slate of the literal Jerusalem and bring in and replace it with a new one coming from heaven..

Revelation is a book of prophetic riddles ("dark sayings," hidden meanings), not spoken clearly (Nu 12:1-8).

The Jerusalem coming down from heaven is the bride of the lamb (Rev 21:9), the church, the people of God of all time.
It's not about Israel.

 

[sawdust]

Revelation is a book of prophetic riddles ("dark sayings," hidden meanings), not spoken clearly (Nu 12:1-8).

The Jerusalem coming down from heaven is the bride of the lamb (Rev 21:9), the church, the people of God of all time.
It's not about Israel.

You say the message is hidden then tell us what it means? Amazing.

ps. I do love irony

 

[Eleanor]

You say the message is hidden then tell us what it means? Amazing.

The New Jerusalem is not a city, it is a figure of the church, the bride of Christ (Eph 5:30-32).

Perhaps Rev 21:3 is a fulfillment of Ex 23:5. I don't know. I don't interpret prophetic riddles.
I'm simply telling you what it states in Rev 21:2, 9-10.

 

[EarlyActs]

When Jesus is asked about the fall of Jerusalem and the time of his return by his disciples, Jesus talks about both. He says that there will be wars and catastrophes, persecutions, and betrayals, but that is not the end. Then He tells of Jerusalem's destruction, and then He speaks about the end times before his Second Coming.

Luke 21:24-28 King James Version (KJV)
24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

I came across a question on this issue of the "Times of the Gentiles" and looked up to see what I could find, and found very little. No one seems to have a full grasp on it although basically it appears mostly fall into a prophetic timeline. Here is one timeline...

"The same Jerusalem which "was compassed with armies" in A.D. 66 (Luke 21: 20), which was
laid "even with the ground" along with her "children within" (Luke 19: 43-44), and whose
people (the Jews) were "led away captive into all nations" in A.D. 70 (Luke 21: 24a), is the same
Jerusalem that would be "trodden down of the Gentiles (Gr. - ethnē - "nations"), until the times
of the Gentiles (nations) be fulfilled" (Luke 21:24b). Historically, the capture and destruction of
the city by the Romans in A.D. 70 began a centuries long "trodding down" of it by the "ethnē" (nations). This non-Jewish governmental domination of Old Jerusalem would continue throughout this allotted time period until the Jewish people would once again gain governmental control of the city."
.....http://www.adventistlaymen.com/WWN%20ARTICLES%20IOWA/WWN%20IOWA_10(16)_11(16).pdf

The problem is that Jews have not gotten complete governmental control of Jerusalem until they have the authority to rebuild the Temple on the Temple Mount. And that they will never have, since the Temple Mount is the site of the al-Aqsa mosque and constitute one of the three holiest shrines in the Muslim world. The Jews may manage the city, but it will never really belong to them until they can rebuild the Temple, which is not possible. But we see a 'New Jerusalem' in scripture..
Revelation 3:12
Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

Revelation 21:2
And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

The destruction of Jerusalem and its Temple occurred because of disobedience of the Jews, and to be restored would require repentance and obedience. Which the Jews, in their blind rejection of Christ, stubbornly refuse. So scripture shows that God will have to clean the slate of the literal Jerusalem and bring in and replace it with a new one coming from heaven..

We already enjoy it as our 'mother.' It won't ever be on this earth; it comes to a NHNE, Rev. 21.

 

[EarlyActs]

A related question for all here:
If Rom 11:5 states that it is the remnant of just 7000 in the Elijah--Baal prophet account that matters (that demonstrates God working with racial-national Jews), then at any given time in history, we can say that God is always working with the race-nation.

I noticed this listening to a sermon that referenced the Rev 7 144K, but the unstated thing he was 'proving' with the figure was that the whole nation would be the 'program' of God. I believe that all through history since 70 AD, there have been far more than 144K.

 

[3 Resurrections]

I believe that all through history since 70 AD, there have been far more than 144K.

The 144,000 "Firstfruits" were the Matthew 27:52-53 resurrected saints who came out of those broken-open graves around Jerusalem the same day that "Christ the First-fruits" was resurrected. They shared the same title of the "First-fruits" because they shared the same "First resurrection" event.

 

[Eleanor]

A related question for all here:
If Rom 11:5 states that it is the remnant of just 7000 in the Elijah--Baal prophet account that matters (that demonstrates God working with racial-national Jews), then at any given time in history, we can say that God is always working with the race-nation.

I noticed this listening to a sermon that referenced the Rev 7 144K, but the unstated thing he was 'proving' with the figure was that the whole nation would be the 'program' of God. I believe that all through history since 70 AD, there have been far more than 144K.

Ro 11:5 states that a remnant was being saved then and now, just as a remnant of the Gentiles are being saved.

All nations, Jew and Gentile, are now on the same footing in the NT; i.e., salvation is by faith in and trust on Jesus Christ for the remission of one's sin, and only a remnant of all nations are being saved.
NT apostolic teaching authoritative to the church (as distinct from prophetic riddles, "dark sayings," hidden meanings, not spoken clearly, Nu 12:8), is that is God's NT plan until glory.

 

[EarlyActs]

The 144,000 "Firstfruits" were the Matthew 27:52-53 resurrected saints who came out of those broken-open graves around Jerusalem the same day that "Christ the First-fruits" was resurrected. They shared the same title of the "First-fruits" because they shared the same "First resurrection" event.

OK, btw, apologies that I thought you were speaking of Christ's own resurrection(s) this whole time. I hate to build too much on a one-off incident; that would break logical Reformation hermeneutics.

 

[3 Resurrections]

OK, btw, apologies that I thought you were speaking of Christ's own resurrection(s) this whole time. I hate to build too much on a one-off incident; that would break logical Reformation hermeneutics.

Do you mean that you don't give much credence to the Matthew 27:52-53 account because it is not mentioned in the other gospels? That may be, but Matthew 27:52-53 is not the only place that this group of only resurrected saints was spoken about.

 

[EarlyActs]

Do you mean that you don't give much credence to the Matthew 27:52-53 account because it is not mentioned in the other gospels? That may be, but Matthew 27:52-53 is not the only place that this group of only resurrected saints was spoken about.

How do you know?

 

[3 Resurrections]

How do you know?

Because I have found the scriptures related to them and their activities, both OT and NT.

 

[EarlyActs]

Because I have found the scriptures related to them and their activities, both OT and NT.

Do they say so directly? Remember we already have one passage making a distinction between 2; so if the NT is that complete, why not say there are 3, and why not say it there? Why does it depend on one person online saying it, which I've never heard in 50 years of research with a master's degree as a base?

 

[3 Resurrections]

Why does it depend on one person online saying it, which I've never heard in 50 years of research with a master's degree as a base?

This view of there being three resurrections apparently was a theme of debate in the early church, because I have read a brief quote ascribed to Gregory of Nyssa (from the 300's) who opposed the idea. That means I am not the only one which this has occurred to over time.

 

[EarlyActs]

This view of there being three resurrections apparently was a theme of debate in the early church, because I have read a brief quote ascribed to Gregory of Nyssa (from the 300's) who opposed the idea. That means I am not the only one which this has occurred to over time.

Please be more articulate. If you are talking about believers' individual resurrections, there have been BILLIONS. What are you talking about.