The "Times of the Gentiles"

[3 Resurrections]

Please be more articulate. If you are talking about believers' individual resurrections, there have been BILLIONS. What are you talking about.

I'm talking about three separate bodily resurrection events - not the spiritual resurrection to life that occurs with each person's salvation. And yes, that would be counted as "billions". That "spiritual resurrection to life" was and is the Holy Spirit's guarantee of being included in one of those three separate groups of a bodily resurrection event - either back in AD 33, AD 70, or in our future at the final culmination of fallen man's history.

 

[EarlyActs]

I'm talking about three separate bodily resurrection events - not the spiritual resurrection to life that occurs with each person's salvation. And yes, that would be counted as "billions". That "spiritual resurrection to life" was and is the Holy Spirit's guarantee of being included in one of those three separate groups of a bodily resurrection event - either back in AD 33, AD 70, or in our future at the final culmination of fallen man's history.

What bodies in 70 AD?

 

[3 Resurrections]

What bodies in 70 AD?

Every dead saint since creation who was considered one of God's own elect was resurrected to life again on AD 70's Pentecost day and gathered together to Christ who had returned to the Mount of Olives. And all those who had already been made "alive", but who had "remained" on the earth until then did not get to the "exit ramp" before the rest. The dead in Christ in the grave rose first. Then those who had already been made alive but had remained on the earth (like Lazarus, Dorcas, the 144,000 Matthew 27:52-53 saints, etc.) were caught up together to meet the Lord in the air. They have all been with the Lord in heaven in those glorified bodies ever since then.

 

[EarlyActs]

Every dead saint since creation who was considered one of God's own elect was resurrected to life again on AD 70's Pentecost day and gathered together to Christ who had returned to the Mount of Olives. And all those who had already been made "alive", but who had "remained" on the earth until then did not get to the "exit ramp" before the rest. The dead in Christ in the grave rose first. Then those who had already been made alive but had remained on the earth (like Lazarus, Dorcas, the 144,000 Matthew 27:52-53 saints, etc.) were caught up together to meet the Lord in the air. They have all been with the Lord in heaven in those glorified bodies ever since then.

Nope. 0 evidence. You don't understand the delay that must exist at Mt 24:29. Hebrews "cloud" is already huge before AD 70s Pentecost day happened. Unless you have some reason for saying the warning , which that letter clearly is , was given after the event to be warned about.

Anyone who dies as a believer at any time is with the Lord the next moment.

 

[3 Resurrections]

Anyone who dies as a believer at any time is with the Lord the next moment.

Their spirit is, surely. Paul made that clear. But not their physical body's remains which wait in the grave until the resurrection when those remains are changed into the incorruptible and immortal state.

Nope. 0 evidence. You don't understand the delay that must exist at Mt 24:29.

There is no delay whatever mentioned in Matthew 24:29. And there is physical evidence of Christ's bodily return to the Mount of Olives back in AD 70.

Hebrews "cloud" is already huge before AD 70s Pentecost day happened.

I agree with this. That "cloud of witnesses" encompassing the believers in those first-century days numbered 144,000 plus of the resurrected individuals who had been made alive, but who had to "remain" on the earth until the next resurrection event in AD 70.

 

[EarlyActs]

Their spirit is, surely. Paul made that clear. But not their physical body's remains which wait in the grave until the resurrection when those remains are changed into the incorruptible and immortal state.

There is no delay whatever mentioned in Matthew 24:29. And there is physical evidence of Christ's bodily return to the Mount of Olives back in AD 70.

I agree with this. That "cloud of witnesses" encompassing the believers in those first-century days numbered 144,000 plus of the resurrected individuals who had been made alive, but who had to "remain" on the earth until the next resurrection event in AD 70.

Physical bodily evidence? I am familiar with some of the extraordinary comments about the collapse and burning of the temple by Josephus.

 

[Eleanor]

Their spirit is, surely. Paul made that clear. But not their physical body's remains which wait in the grave until the resurrection when those remains are changed into the incorruptible and immortal state.

There is no delay whatever mentioned in Matthew 24:29. And there is physical evidence of Christ's bodily return to the Mount of Olives back in AD 70.

Which you fail to present.

 

[3 Resurrections]

Which you fail to present.

I have already given it before on another post. It's the physical evidence of all the earthquake rubble created by the top of the Mount of Olives breaking apart in all directions and falling downhill to block up the Kidron Valley as far as Azal. Zechariah 14:4-5 in the LXX, the New Jerusalem Bible, and several other translations mention the effects of this earthquake at Christ's return to the Mount of Olives. Today, there is a 40' deep layer of rubble in the bottom of the Kidron Valley dated to a first century earthquake. In Christ's days, the lowest point of the Kidron Valley was 40' deeper and 70' closer to the walls of Jerusalem than it is today. Christ came and left from that Mount of Olives location, taking all the resurrected saints with Him, and leaving that rubble blocking up the valley as far as the Azal location (the Wadi Yasul on today's maps; just a ways past the southeastern corner of Jerusalem). Zechariah 14:4-5's prediction was fulfilled already.

In the post-exilic return, the people were to stand before the gate of the inner court that faced the east and worship the Lord in the Sabbaths and the new moon (Ezekiel 46:1-3). This eastern gate was only open for the prince to enter and leave by that gate on the Sabbath and the new moons, and it was shut when evening came. All other days of the week it was to remain shut. The symbolism of this highlighted the time and place where "Messiah the Prince" would return - and leave. Once that eastern gate was torn down in AD 70 at the end of the war, it's existence was no longer necessary, since it had already fulfilled its predicted purpose earlier on Pentecost day in AD 70.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings 3 Resurrections,

Zechariah 14:4-5's prediction was fulfilled already.

What about the other details of Zechariah 14. When were the following details fulfilled, or are these still future?
[color-blue]Zechariah 14:8–9 (KJV): 8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be. 9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.

Zechariah 14:14 (KJV): And Judah also shall fight at Jerusalem; and the wealth of all the heathen round about shall be gathered together, gold, and silver, and apparel, in great abundance.

Zechariah 14:16–19 (KJV): 16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles. 17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain. 18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles. 19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[3 Resurrections]

What about the other details of Zechariah 14. When were the following details fulfilled, or are these still future?
[color-blue]Zechariah 14:8–9 (KJV): 8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be. 9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.

Christ spoke in John 7:38-39 about this Zechariah prophecy (among others, "as the scripture hath said") of the "living water", which was going to be the "spring" of the Holy Spirit flowing out of converted people.

The city of Jerusalem only came to be built due to the existence of the Gihon Spring, which was the main water supply for the inhabitants. This Gihon Spring ended up being channeled through the temple to supply the ritually pure "living water" for the temple's use. God used this Gihon Spring of "living water" in Jerusalem as a metaphor for the Holy Spirit's work which began at Pentecost in the temple in Jerusalem, and spread outward to the nations of the world from that point.

Once that physical temple was torn down to the last stone in AD 70, it became obvious that Zechariah 14:8-9's prophecy referred to the spiritual NEW Jerusalem which was the real source of "living water". That "living water" would continuously flow all year long (summer and winter), and would be reaching not only those in Israel (as pictured by the "former" Dead Sea), but also those in Gentile lands (as pictured by the "hinder" Mediterranean Sea).

The Lord being "king over all the earth" was the revelation that Christ was the only high priest "king" that Israel had ever needed, once the ethnic, Levitical high priesthood members were eliminated from history in the AD 70 era. There have not been and never will be any other high priest "king" in this world that will replace Christ, our "Great High Priest" after the order of Melchizedek. That is why the tribe of Levi was going to be mourning in Jerusalem in Zechariah 12:13. The Levitical priests would finally be realizing that they had already been "fired", and that they had lost their "job" in an obsolete physical temple that had been destroyed down to the last stone.

Zechariah 14:14 (KJV): And Judah also shall fight at Jerusalem; and the wealth of all the heathen round about shall be gathered together, gold, and silver, and apparel, in great abundance.

Judah was the "lawgiver" tribe. But even the lawgiving tribe would also fight at Jerusalem in the civil war conditions that were present in Jerusalem from AD 66-70. By the time AD 70's war with the Romans had concluded, all the temple wealth that remained which had been given as tribute to the temple by the various pagan nations in the past, and the gold which had beautified that structure was gathered together and taken as spoil by the Romans, just as Zechariah 14:1 had said would happen. I'm not sure which historian recorded that the value of gold in the empire dropped just after AD 70's end, because the market was saturated with what had been confiscated from the destroyed temple.

Zechariah 14:16–19 (KJV): 16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles. 17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain. 18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles. 19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

We today are currently in that "year to year" time of worshipping the King, the Lord of hosts in the NEW Jerusalem ever since AD 70's destruction of the Old Jerusalem, when Christ's bodily second coming return to the Mount of Olives had occurred.

The blessing of "rain" here in Zechariah 14:16-19 is equated with righteousness, as in Isaiah 45:8 and Hosea 10:12, "Sow to yourselves in righteousness, reap in mercy; break up your fallow ground: for it is time to seek the Lord, till he come and rain righteousness upon you." The only reason why this lone "Feast of Tabernacles" festival is mentioned multiple times here in this text is to serve as a sort of "save the date" card, to remind us of the time for Christ's next bodily return to this earth - and the final third bodily resurrection and judgment.

 

[Eleanor]

I have already given it before on another post. It's the physical evidence of all the earthquake rubble created by the top of the Mount of Olives breaking apart in all directions and falling downhill to block up the Kidron Valley as far as Azal. Zechariah 14:4-5 in the LXX, the New Jerusalem Bible, and several other translations mention the effects of this earthquake at Christ's return to the Mount of Olives. Today, there is a 40' deep layer of rubble in the bottom of the Kidron Valley dated to a first century earthquake. In Christ's days, the lowest point of the Kidron Valley was 40' deeper and 70' closer to the walls of Jerusalem than it is today. Christ came and left from that Mount of Olives location, taking all the resurrected saints with Him, and leaving that rubble blocking up the valley as far as the Azal location (the Wadi Yasul on today's maps; just a ways past the southeastern corner of Jerusalem). Zechariah 14:4-5's prediction was fulfilled already.

In the post-exilic return, the people were to stand before the gate of the inner court that faced the east and worship the Lord in the Sabbaths and the new moon (Ezekiel 46:1-3). This eastern gate was only open for the prince to enter and leave by that gate on the Sabbath and the new moons, and it was shut when evening came. All other days of the week it was to remain shut. The symbolism of this highlighted the time and place where "Messiah the Prince" would return - and leave. Once that eastern gate was torn down in AD 70 at the end of the war, it's existence was no longer necessary, since it had already fulfilled its predicted purpose earlier on Pentecost day in AD 70.

So it's arbitrary assignment of an earthquake as a return of Christ.

So what did he do when he returned, and where is he now?

 

[3 Resurrections]

So it's arbitrary assignment of an earthquake as a return of Christ.

So what did he do when he returned, and where is he now?

I suppose if one wants to shrug off the dating calculations of the archeologists who have examined that first-century layer of rubble (and the one under it from the earthquake in King Uzziah's days) then you don't have to give this any consideration. For me, I prefer to believe that Zechariah 14 and Ezekiel 46 both revealed the exact time and place for Christ's bodily return in AD 70.

Christ told His disciples what He would do when He bodily returned to gather His resurrected ones to Himself. "And if I go, I will come again, and receive you unto myself, that where I am, there ye may be also." By AD 70, the Apostles had died and would be able to participate in that transport to heaven with Christ, along with all the rest of the dead saints since Creation whose bodies were resurrected from the grave at that time. 1 Thessalonians 4's "rapture" was for that generation of resurrected saints who had died - not for us. We won't need one at the final bodily resurrection when He comes for a third time in our future.

 

[Eleanor]

I suppose if one wants to shrug off the dating calculations of the archeologists who have examined that first-century layer of rubble (and the one under it from the earthquake in King Uzziah's days) then you don't have to give this any consideration. For me, I prefer to believe that Zechariah 14 and Ezekiel 46 both revealed the exact time and place for Christ's bodily return in AD 70.

Christ told His disciples what He would do when He bodily returned to gather His resurrected ones to Himself. "And if I go, I will come again, and receive you unto myself, that where I am, there ye may be also." By AD 70, the Apostles had died and would be able to participate in that transport to heaven with Christ, along with all the rest of the dead saints since Creation whose bodies were resurrected from the grave at that time. 1 Thessalonians 4's "rapture" was for that generation of resurrected saints who had died - not for us. We won't need one at the final bodily resurrection when He comes for a third time in our future.

If they "needed" a rapture at their resurrection, why don't we need one at ours?

And in light of the moon not giving its light, the stars falling from the sky, and the heavenly bodies shaken (Mt 24:29),
Jesus' coming down from heaven (1 Th 4:16), appearing in the sky,
all nations of the earth mourning as they see him on the clouds of the sky,
with power and great glory, sending his angels with a loud trumpet call (Mt 24:30-31),
and with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, the dead rise,
the risen elect along with the ones who are still alive at the resurrection are caught up in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air at the rapture (1Th 4:16-17), where
the angels gather them from the four winds, from one end of heavens to the other (Mt 24:31). . .

having already occurred, is any of that racket, those cosmic events or earthly upheavals found in the historical record anywhere?
We have no verifiable testimony of your novel assertion.

 

[CrowCross]

The time of the Gentiles is from when Messiah was cut off till the rapture.

 

[3 Resurrections]

The time of the Gentiles is from when Messiah was cut off till the rapture.

It is not "TIME (singular) of the Gentiles"; it is "TIMES (PLURAL) of the Gentiles". Those "TIMES" were the 42 months of the city and the sanctuary of Jerusalem being trodden underfoot in Revelation 11:2. It is also the PLURAL "time, times, and half a time" that it took to shatter the power of the holy people in Daniel 12:7. This was the period of the competing Zealot factions battling each other for control of Jerusalem between late AD 66 and early AD 70.

The Zealot cause had originated from "Galilee of the Gentiles". The "times" of those Zealots coming from Galilee of the Gentiles to tread Jerusalem and the temple underfoot for 42 months have been gone ever since the spring of AD 70.

If they "needed" a rapture at their resurrection, why don't we need one at ours?

Our resurrection in the future will take place at the culmination of fallen mankind's history. There will be no need to be "raptured" off this planet which will be purified of the presence of all human evil at Christ's final return. For the resurrected believers in AD 70, this future blessed reality had not yet occurred, so heaven with themselves in Christ's presence would be their home in the interim.

 

[CrowCross]

It is not "TIME (singular) of the Gentiles"; it is "TIMES (PLURAL) of the Gentiles". Those "TIMES" were the 42 months of the city and the sanctuary of Jerusalem being trodden underfoot in Revelation 11:2. It is also the PLURAL "time, times, and half a time" that it took to shatter the power of the holy people in Daniel 12:7. This was the period of the competing Zealot factions battling each other for control of Jerusalem between late AD 66 and early AD 70.

The Zealot cause had originated from "Galilee of the Gentiles". The "times" of those Zealots coming from Galilee of the Gentiles to tread Jerusalem and the temple underfoot for 42 months have been gone ever since the spring of AD 70.


Our resurrection in the future will take place at the culmination of fallen mankind's history. There will be no need to be "raptured" off this planet which will be purified of the presence of all human evil at Christ's final return. For the resurrected believers in AD 70, this future blessed reality had not yet occurred, so heaven with themselves in Christ's presence would be their home in the interim.

The "clock"for the Jews was ticking down and stopped when Jesus died. The clock stopped 7 years short. After the rapture the clock will continue to tick once again during the 7 year tribulation period when God deals with the Jews.

 

[3 Resurrections]

having already occurred, is any of that racket, those cosmic events or earthly upheavals found in the historical record anywhere?
We have no verifiable testimony of your novel assertion.

Yes, those wars, famines, earthquakes in divers places, etc. which Christ predicted leading up to the "great tribulation" period in Judea in AD 66 were most definitely recorded. There is archaeological evidence of the "sea and the waves roaring" as a result of that increased level of seismic events for that period. A recorded tsunami submerging 300 ships with Rome's entire grain supply for the year - an event preserved on coins Nero had minted at that time. Sea walls being built to reduce the effect of wildly-fluctuating sea levels at Herculaneum. Even Seneca the Younger included in his AD 63 work a section entitled "Concerning Earthquakes" in order to calm the rising panic of those wanting to flee from areas of increased earthquake activity. He reasoned that one might as well stay in one place, since an earthquake was just as likely to strike if one moved to another location in trying to avoid them.

Rome was embroiled in wars on several fronts, as well as civil wars and rebellions (like Vindex). Widespread famines are recorded even in Acts (Agabus's prediction) for that period during the "beginning of sorrows" prior to the "great tribulation" beginning in AD 66. "Terrible even in peace", was the way Josephus described conditions in the world during this period.

I keep saying that the trumpet and the archangel's call were for the DEAD believers to hear - not necessarily the living. And that it was the "tribes of the earth" (meaning the tribes of Israel who had pierced Him) whose "every eye" would see that bodily return to the Mount of Olives. These eye-witnesses in Jerusalem seeing Christ's return at Pentecost day in AD 70 either died by the end of AD 70, or they were taken captive and died in Roman arenas or in slavery. One cannot reasonably expect dead people and slaves to have written a record of their view of Christ's bodily return, and for that record to have been preserved for us to read today. Even so, this kind of record may yet be uncovered. They are still doing excavations in Old Jerusalem and may yet come up with further physical evidence confirming that Christ returned when He said He was going to for that first-century generation.

For now, I take into consideration the empty double-cave site of Machpelah where Abraham, Sarah, Isaac, Rebekah, Jacob and Leah were all buried. The 6-chambered cave is empty, even though there are graves surrounding that site which have bodily remains in them. I also take into consideration the many ossuaries which were produced before AD 70 which are empty of human remains. In the discovered cave where Caiphas' ornate ossuary was found, six ossuaries were empty, and six were not. Caiaphas we know was probably not among the family of God, by his continued hatred of Christ. So I am not surprised that the bones of a sixty-ish year old man are still in that Caiaphas ossuary. That high priest's fate was to perish, body and soul.

 

[Eleanor]

Yes, those wars, famines, earthquakes in divers places, etc. which Christ predicted leading up to the "great tribulation" period in Judea in AD 66 were most definitely recorded. There is archaeological evidence of the "sea and the waves roaring" as a result of that increased level of seismic events for that period. A recorded tsunami submerging 300 ships with Rome's entire grain supply for the year - an event preserved on coins Nero had minted at that time. Sea walls being built to reduce the effect of wildly-fluctuating sea levels at Herculaneum. Even Seneca the Younger included in his AD 63 work a section entitled "Concerning Earthquakes" in order to calm the rising panic of those wanting to flee from areas of increased earthquake activity. He reasoned that one might as well stay in one place, since an earthquake was just as likely to strike if one moved to another location in trying to avoid them.

Rome was embroiled in wars on several fronts, as well as civil wars and rebellions (like Vindex). Widespread famines are recorded even in Acts (Agabus's prediction) for that period during the "beginning of sorrows" prior to the "great tribulation" beginning in AD 66. "Terrible even in peace", was the way Josephus described conditions in the world during this period.

I keep saying that the trumpet and the archangel's call were for the DEAD believers to hear - not necessarily the living. And that it was the "tribes of the earth" (meaning the tribes of Israel who had pierced Him) whose "every eye" would see that bodily return to the Mount of Olives. These eye-witnesses in Jerusalem seeing Christ's return at Pentecost day in AD 70 either died by the end of AD 70,

Where is the NT record of Christ returning at Pentecost?

or they were taken captive and died in Roman arenas or in slavery. One cannot reasonably expect dead people and slaves to have written a record of their view of Christ's bodily return, and for that record to have been preserved for us to read today. Even so, this kind of record may yet be uncovered. They are still doing excavations in Old Jerusalem and may yet come up with further physical evidence confirming that Christ returned when He said He was going to for that first-century generation.

For now, I take into consideration the empty double-cave site of Machpelah where Abraham, Sarah, Isaac, Rebekah, Jacob and Leah were all buried. The 6-chambered cave is empty, even though there are graves surrounding that site which have bodily remains in them. I also take into consideration the many ossuaries which were produced before AD 70 which are empty of human remains. In the discovered cave where Caiphas' ornate ossuary was found, six ossuaries were empty, and six were not. Caiaphas we know was probably not among the family of God, by his continued hatred of Christ. So I am not surprised that the bones of a sixty-ish year old man are still in that Caiaphas ossuary. That high priest's fate was to perish, body and soul.

And all those events in the skies and their sounds?
No one but the invisible resurrected saw and heard them also?

 

[3 Resurrections]

Where is the NT record of Christ returning at Pentecost?

Not that Pentecost day in Acts; it was the Pentecost day in AD 70, in case this was what you intended to ask. This AD 70 Pentecost day is the last day of the countdown to the 1,335th day in Daniel 12:11-13, in which Daniel himself would participate in a bodily resurrection at the end of those 1,335 days.

And all those events in the skies and their sounds?
No one but the invisible resurrected saw and heard them also?

Do you remember that passage in John 12:28-29 about God speaking to Christ from heaven, saying "I have both glorified it, and will glorify it again"? Some heard thunder; some thought an angel spoke to him. Different perceptions by different people at the same location.

When God acts supernaturally, human perceptions of those sounds or actions can be as varied as this example above. We know that when the resurrected Christ left the sepulcher that Saturday evening, the guards standing a few feet away didn't notice a thing. They had no reaction at all until the next morning when the angel made an appearance and rolled back the stone. Then the guards were shaken with fright and "became as dead men" (Matthew 28:4). This shows that when a resurrection takes place, it is not necessarily perceived by those standing right next to that person rising from the dead.

 

[Eleanor]

Or

Not that Pentecost day in Acts; it was the Pentecost day in AD 70, in case this was what you intended to ask. This AD 70 Pentecost day is the last day of the countdown to the 1,335th day in Daniel 12:11-13, in which Daniel himself would participate in a bodily resurrection at the end of those 1,335 days.

Do you remember that passage in John 12:28-29 about God speaking to Christ from heaven, saying "I have both glorified it, and will glorify it again"? Some heard thunder; some thought an angel spoke to him. Different perceptions by different people at the same location.
When God acts supernaturally, human perceptions of those sounds or actions can be as varied as this example above. We know that when the resurrected Christ left the sepulcher that Saturday evening,

Where is this in the text?

the guards standing a few feet away didn't notice a thing. They had no reaction at all until the next morning when the angel made an appearance and rolled back the stone. Then the guards were shaken with fright and "became as dead men" (Matthew 28:4). This shows that when a resurrection takes place, it is not necessarily perceived by those standing right next to that person rising from the dead.

Or it shows that we know no such resurrection took place.