THE PURPOSE OF TONGUES IN THE ASSEMBLY

[Dave]

CHAPTER 9

The history and significance of languages in the Bible from the OT perspective to the NT. Or, if you still speaketh in the Kings language, better known as "tongues".

If you really want to understand what "tongues" really is, you'll need to understand it from the OT first. The link is provided above. What is called "tongues" today is not the Biblical gift of languages.

 

[CrowCross]

CHAPTER 9

The history and significance of languages in the Bible from the OT perspective to the NT. Or, if you still speaketh in the Kings language, better known as "tongues".

If you really want to understand what "tongues" really is, you'll need to understand it from the OT first. The link is provided above. What is called "tongues" today is not the Biblical gift of languages.

Interesting post. From the link I read...
Therefore, it must be concluded that the gift of tongues as a sign-gift was no longer needed after 70 A.D. Tongues must have ceased on or before 70 A.D. The last historical mention of the gift of tongues is in 1 Corinthians which was written about 55 A.D. There is no evidence historically that the genuine gift of tongues ever occurred after 70 A.D. Tongues served their purpose, and tongues ceased, even as God had predicted through the Apostle Paul (1 Corinthians 13:8).

Personally I think tongues still exist.

I believe tongues is rare and when it does occur requires an interpreter. Just for the record I've been amongst "Pentecostals" for the past several years and have never heard it at spoken in a church service.

I do know tongues can be imitated and "faked". I also now it can be very real but as I said extremely rare and has to be a work of God.

 

[Lees]

Interesting post. From the link I read...
Therefore, it must be concluded that the gift of tongues as a sign-gift was no longer needed after 70 A.D. Tongues must have ceased on or before 70 A.D. The last historical mention of the gift of tongues is in 1 Corinthians which was written about 55 A.D. There is no evidence historically that the genuine gift of tongues ever occurred after 70 A.D. Tongues served their purpose, and tongues ceased, even as God had predicted through the Apostle Paul (1 Corinthians 13:8).

Personally I think tongues still exist.

I believe tongues is rare and when it does occur requires an interpreter. Just for the record I've been amongst "Pentecostals" for the past several years and have never heard it at spoken in a church service.

I do know tongues can be imitated and "faked". I also now it can be very real but as I said extremely rare and has to be a work of God.

I agree. And I believe all the gift ministries in the Bible for the Church still exist today.

That is quite a statement, that for several years it hasn't been spoken in the Pentecostal church service. I am not Pentecostal but I hate to hear that.

I suspect the reasons for the gift ministries not being openly displayed in the Church today, is the 'condition' of the Church today. I mean if most don't believe in the gift ministries, how can the Holy Spirit openly display them? Plus the 'spiritual' conditon of the Church today squashes a lot of what the Holy Ghost wil do.

My opinion.

Lees

 

[Dave]

Hi Lee and CrowCross

Anything good that comes from us for the Church is a undeserved gift from God. Remember, only God is good. Jesus said that. Man cannot produce good works from the flesh. That's why the gifts are called the gifts. But the sign gifts have played out their purpose. And any secondary benefits to keep them Biblical in Corinth went with that primary purpose. Most of todays modern theology, which is grounded in humanism, not scripture, would be deeply offended if they knew what the gifts really were. From our flesh, we can only produce filthy rags, or sin, as Paul said. If it's good, it's from God, and a gift. That's what the gifts are, then and now. Back then, a few sign gifts were just that, for a sign, whether it be a sign of judgment that was coming, or a sign to prove who they were, called the signs of the Apostles, to authenticate the message and the messenger, even our Lord Jesus. But they were still sign gifts. That's what they were for.

Understanding the purpose of languages as a sign of judgment on Israel first and foremost, which is what Paul was trying to teach when quoting Isaiah in 1 Corinthians, tells us it's purpose. I personally think Paul was too soft, trying to be as gentle as possible, but that backfired and left the door open for the idolatry that we see today. What todays Charismatics and Pentecostal have done, is taken all the 'what not to do commands' in 1 Corinthians and tuned them into the 'what to do commands'. Basically, reinventing the mystery religions that infiltrated the church of Corinth back when Paul was first ministering to that church.

If the sign gift of languages were here today, it would look very plain and non-miraculous. Look at the U.S. today with regards to languages. We are no longer a country of one language. We are under God's judgment. That's what "languages" as a sign of judgment is. The miraculous part was unique to Pentecost for obvious reasons, and until that judgment came down in A.D. 70, was still functioning in the their world. What Paul did at Corinth was to put such a restriction on the conditions for that gift, that only the true could survive. I personally don't think the true gift was operating in Corinth, but Paul, understanding that the true sign gift was still around, could not restrict the gift as a whole. He did the next best thing, and restricted the conditions for it's use. Which sent the mystery religion gibberish that infiltrated the church of Corinth packing. We hear nothing more about it in 2 Corinthians.

Also, as a side note, the gifts are to minister to the Body, not to ourselves. So the idea of personal tongues is completely false and taken straight from the mystery religions. We are told by Paul to pray with understanding, and understanding is better. He was pretty clear about that.

I've been in the same circles and seen the same things. People chasing after miracles, trying to turn everything into a miracle, because that's the only place that they see God, is also called seeking after a sign. God said that only an evil and adulterous generation seeks after a sign. Israel wanted signs, so they got them. Today, Pentecostals and Charismatics also want signs. That's not good.

Dave

 

[Lees]

@Dave: concerning post #(4)

Which gifts are you calling the 'sign gifts'?

Do you consider the gifts you don't call 'sign gifts' as miraculous? What are those gifts?

You say, "the gifts are to minister to the Body, not to ourselves". But, Scripture says, (1 Cor. 12:7), "But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit." And in (1 Cor. 14:4), "He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church."

I see nothing there to indicate that ones gift should not edify oneself. That prophesying is more important to the Church doesn't mean a gift that edifies oneself is not important.

Do you have any spiritual gifts? Are they miraculous, or are they just 'you'? If they are miraculous, how do you know?

Lees

 

[CrowCross]

I agree. And I believe all the gift ministries in the Bible for the Church still exist today.

Me too but I'm not so sure about the "apostle" position.

That is quite a statement, that for several years it hasn't been spoken in the Pentecostal church service. I am not Pentecostal but I hate to hear that.

Denominationalism seems to be taking somewhat of a back seat...most churches today, especially the newer church's are dropping the denomination from their name. BTW, they still raise their hands.

I suspect the reasons for the gift ministries not being openly displayed in the Church today, is the 'condition' of the Church today. I mean if most don't believe in the gift ministries, how can the Holy Spirit openly display them? Plus the 'spiritual' conditon of the Church today squashes a lot of what the Holy Ghost wil do.

I would imagine that is true in some cases...but there are many "on fire for Christ" churches that preach the bible where the Holy Spirit is working in different ways.

One more thing, people read the book of Acts and see miracle happening after miracle. Thing is Acts was written over a long time period where the miracles were spread out. When one reads Acts it reads somewhat compressed and one may get the impression that it occurred in a short period of time and all Paul did was perform miracles everywhere he went.

My opinion.

Lees

 

[ElectedbyHim]

Paul laid out some regulations when speaking in tongues 1 Corinthians 14

Tongues had to be human languages. 1 Corinthians 14:10
Tongues were for edifying the church. 1 Corinhinas 14:12,13,26
Tongues were a sign to unbelieving Jews 1 Corinthians 14:21-22
A max of 2 or 3 were allowed to speak in any meeting. 1 Corinthians 14:27a
One person at a time. 1 Corinthians 14:27b
An interpreter had to be present. 1 Corinthians 14:27c
Tongues were to be controlled. 1 Corinthians 14:32
Any confusion or disorder was an indication it was not from Holy Spirit.1 Corinthians 14:33, 14:40
Tongues were for men only. 1 Corinthians 14:34
They had to recognize these regulations as the commandments of the Lord. 1 Corinthians 14:37
The predominant gift ewas prophecy (preaching. 1 Corinthians 14:39

The Biblical model for speaking in tongues is not heeded in anyway, that should just solidify that speaking in gibberish is false today.

I am a firm believer that the sign gifts have ceased, perhaps a seperate thread on the "perfect". is needed.

Also, no such thing as tongues of angels, that also is another topic.

Many would do well to understand the historical background of 1 Coritnhians and the pagan practices going on.

The Corinthian church was pretty sinful and perverted.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Lees]

Me too but I'm not so sure about the "apostle" position.

Denominationalism seems to be taking somewhat of a back seat...most churches today, especially the newer church's are dropping the denomination from their name. BTW, they still raise their hands.

I would imagine that is true in some cases...but there are many "on fire for Christ" churches that preach the bible where the Holy Spirit is working in different ways.

One more thing, people read the book of Acts and see miracle happening after miracle. Thing is Acts was written over a long time period where the miracles were spread out. When one reads Acts it reads somewhat compressed and one may get the impression that it occurred in a short period of time and all Paul did was perform miracles everywhere he went.

But (1 Cor. 12:28) indicates 'apostle' is a true gift of the Holy Spirit. In fact it appears to be the most important gift. "And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues."

And (1 Cor. 12:31) indicates we should seek the best gifts. "But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.

I realize many teach that the gifts have ceased. Couple that with the worldliness of the Church today. Couple that with the craziness of some who display such actions in the church as being filled with the spirit, when in all probability it is nothing short of demonic. It is no wonder that the Church has stepped back away from these gifts of the Spirit. I certainly want no part of a church where such craziness abounds. (1 Cor. 14:40) "Let all things be done decently and in order."

(John 3:34) "For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him."

(Eph. 1:13-14) "...in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession...."

We as members of the Body of Christ have the earnest of the Spirit, yet not the whole Spirit as Christ has. And I believe that earnest of the Spirit will reflect the gift or gifts that we have, that Christ has. (1 Cor. 12:12)

Lees

 

[Mr GLee]

I agree. And I believe all the gift ministries in the Bible for the Church still exist today.

Would you agree that God is no longer bringing any new prophecy (as it is written) and we have the perfect sealed with seven seals till the end of time?

 

[Mr GLee]

Therefore, it must be concluded that the gift of tongues as a sign-gift was no longer needed after 70 A.D. Tongues must have ceased on or before 70 A.D. The last historical mention of the gift of tongues is in 1 Corinthians which was written about 55 A.D. There is no evidence historically that the genuine gift of tongues ever occurred after 70 A.D. Tongues served their purpose, and tongues ceased, even as God had predicted through the Apostle Paul (1 Corinthians 13:8).

I would offer. Spiritual gifts that work from within.

Sign gift called strange fire . Adding to prophecy with oral traditions of dying mankind.

Aaron two sons first day all decked out in ceremonial attire as a sign to the surrounding pagan nations (Out of sight out of Mind) No invisible God reigning from heaven.

The I did it you saw, it proves it . Consumed them not a hint of smoke on the priestly attire.

Signs as metaphors follow "Let there be" prophecy

Many tested the poison the deadly thing and died. Like those at Jones town

Tongues simply prophecy. New tongue the gospel it can raise the dead

The key FOLLOW never lead

Mark 16:17-20And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;(Gospel) They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.;And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.

Remember Satan the king of lying signs to wonder, wonder after as if true prophecy is working overtime today

 

[CrowCross]

But (1 Cor. 12:28) indicates 'apostle' is a true gift of the Holy Spirit. In fact it appears to be the most important gift. "And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues."

Do you know any apostles?

 

[Dave]

@Dave: concerning post #(4)

Which gifts are you calling the 'sign gifts'?

Do you consider the gifts you don't call 'sign gifts' as miraculous? What are those gifts?

You say, "the gifts are to minister to the Body, not to ourselves". But, Scripture says, (1 Cor. 12:7), "But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit." And in (1 Cor. 14:4), "He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church."

I see nothing there to indicate that ones gift should not edify oneself. That prophesying is more important to the Church doesn't mean a gift that edifies oneself is not important.

Do you have any spiritual gifts? Are they miraculous, or are they just 'you'? If they are miraculous, how do you know?

Lees

Hi Lee

The sign gifts are: Languages, otherwise known as tongues. Healing, which is healing through human agency. In other words, it's not asking God for healing in prayer, either individually or collectively, or even if it's answered miraculously, or not. The gift of healing is a healing through human agency and was a person who could walk into a hospital and heal everybody, to authenticate himself as a true messenger of the revelation of God, and authenticate his message. Jesus did it, and the Apostles did it. Healed everybody, all the time, everything, even raising the dead, with a touch. And it did not rely on faith, in fact, many times it brought people to faith. Trust me, by those standards, nobody has that gift today. Most of these gifts have been redefined, putting the burden of proof on the receiver, requiring a "pure faith", as they say. Jesus said the faith of a mustard seed can move mountains. And of course, prophecy, which is no longer revelatory, in fact, the definition means to speak before, not in time, but before people. That too has been redefined. Sharing the written Word of God is to to speak prophecy. God's Word is complete.

Edifying oneself. Lee, it's right there in front of you. What does it say? It lists the goal, then gives two options. One is 'what to do', the other is 'what not to do'. Paul does this over and over in that same chapter. The goal is to edify the Body. Then Paul gives two examples. Which one passes the test? Besides, Paul clearly states that prophecy is for believers, and tongues are for unbelievers. What unbelievers? Israel. That's why He quoted Isaiah, as was noted above. If you read it as such, it will paint a completely different picture. Edify the Body, prophecy is for believers, tongues are for unbelievers. That's two standards to help you decide between the two options that Paul gives. Read the whole chapter that way, by those standards, and you'll see the correct option given every time two options are offered.

The purpose of the gifts are to edify the body. And never to edify oneself.

Anything good that comes from us for the Church, is an undeserved gift from God. That's why they are called the gifts.

Dave

 

[Lees]

Do you know any apostles?

Would that influence or change (1 Cor. 12:28)?

Lees

 

[Lees]

Hi Lee

The sign gifts are: Languages, otherwise known as tongues. Healing, which is healing through human agency. In other words, it's not asking God for healing in prayer, either individually or collectively, or even if it's answered miraculously, or not. The gift of healing is a healing through human agency and was a person who could walk into a hospital and heal everybody, to authenticate himself as a true messenger of the revelation of God, and authenticate his message. Jesus did it, and the Apostles did it. Healed everybody, all the time, everything, even raising the dead, with a touch. And it did not rely on faith, in fact, many times it brought people to faith. Trust me, by those standards, nobody has that gift today. Most of these gifts have been redefined, putting the burden of proof on the receiver, requiring a "pure faith", as they say. Jesus said the faith of a mustard seed can move mountains. And of course, prophecy, which is no longer revelatory, in fact, the definition means to speak before, not in time, but before people. That too has been redefined. Sharing the written Word of God is to to speak prophecy. God's Word is complete.

Edifying oneself. Lee, it's right there in front of you. What does it say? It lists the goal, then gives two options. One is 'what to do', the other is 'what not to do'. Paul does this over and over in that same chapter. The goal is to edify the Body. Then Paul gives two examples. Which one passes the test? Besides, Paul clearly states that prophecy is for believers, and tongues are for unbelievers. What unbelievers? Israel. That's why He quoted Isaiah, as was noted above. If you read it as such, it will paint a completely different picture. Edify the Body, prophecy is for believers, tongues are for unbelievers. That's two standards to help you decide between the two options that Paul gives. Read the whole chapter that way, by those standards, and you'll see the correct option given every time two options are offered.

The purpose of the gifts are to edify the body. And never to edify oneself.

Anything good that comes from us for the Church, is an undeserved gift from God. That's why they are called the gifts.

Dave

Are you saying the 'sign gifts are only 'healing and tongues'?

Where do you get the idea that a person with a gift of healing could walk into a hospital and heal everybody?

If 'healing' was a gift to authenticate one as a true messenger of God, do you have the gift of healing? If not, does that mean you are not a true messenger of God?

No, neither Jesus or the Apostles healed everybody all the time. If healing did not rely on 'faith', what did it rely on?

I see all of the gifts as edifying oneself. (1 Cor. 12:7) They are given to everyman to profit. Yes they are for the Body, but they also benefit the individual. Just because tongues edifes oneself doesn't make it wrong. (1 Cor. 14:4)

It doesn't matter that tongues has purpose toward unbelievers. It is not unbelievers that have the gift of tongues. It is believers. And if it is not accepted in a church the believer with that gift can exercise it to himself and God. (1 Cor. 14:28) "But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God." Seems there is nothing wrong with edifying oneself.

I disagree. Your last statement does not define the Spiritual gifts from God. It defines man's goodness.

Do you consider all the Spritual gifts miraculous? Do you believe you have any Spiritual gifts?

Lees

 

[Tambora]

Interesting post. From the link I read...
Therefore, it must be concluded that the gift of tongues as a sign-gift was no longer needed after 70 A.D. Tongues must have ceased on or before 70 A.D. The last historical mention of the gift of tongues is in 1 Corinthians which was written about 55 A.D. There is no evidence historically that the genuine gift of tongues ever occurred after 70 A.D. Tongues served their purpose, and tongues ceased, even as God had predicted through the Apostle Paul (1 Corinthians 13:8).

Personally I think tongues still exist.

I believe tongues is rare and when it does occur requires an interpreter. Just for the record I've been amongst "Pentecostals" for the past several years and have never heard it at spoken in a church service.

I do know tongues can be imitated and "faked". I also now it can be very real but as I said extremely rare and has to be a work of God.

I, too, would be leery to say for certain tongues are no longer a gift.
And I also think tongues would be the easiest to fake.

There seems to be a difference in the tongues the disciples spoke at Pentecost and the tongues spoken in some of Paul's churches.
At Pentecost everyone understood in their own dialect without the need for an interpreter.
In some of Paul's churches there needed to be an interpreter.

 

[CrowCross]

I, too, would be leery to say for certain tongues are no longer a gift.
And I also think tongues would be the easiest to fake.

There are people who confess Christ, worship Christ...live for Christ....who have spoken in tongues.
They appear to be true bone-a-fide christians with no need to fake it.

As I said I believe speaking in tongues is still here but very rare.

There seems to be a difference in the tongues the disciples spoke at Pentecost and the tongues spoken in some of Paul's churches.
At Pentecost everyone understood in their own dialect without the need for an interpreter.
In some of Paul's churches there needed to be an interpreter.

 

[CrowCross]

Would that influence or change (1 Cor. 12:28)?

Lees

I'd have to look and see what the word "apostle" means and what a modern day apostle is supposed to do.

If there were apostles I think their ministry would be well know in christian communities.

 

[ElectedbyHim]

There are people who confess Christ, worship Christ...live for Christ....who have spoken in tongues.
They appear to be true bone-a-fide christians with no need to fake it.

As I said I believe speaking in tongues is still here but very rare.

What would be the purpose if they really spoke in tongues?

 

[atpollard]

Paul laid out some regulations when speaking in tongues 1 Corinthians 14

Tongues had to be human languages. 1 Corinthians 14:10
Tongues were for edifying the church. 1 Corinthians 14:12,13,26
Tongues were a sign to unbelieving Jews 1 Corinthians 14:21-22
A max of 2 or 3 were allowed to speak in any meeting. 1 Corinthians 14:27a
One person at a time. 1 Corinthians 14:27b
An interpreter had to be present. 1 Corinthians 14:27c
Tongues were to be controlled. 1 Corinthians 14:32
Any confusion or disorder was an indication it was not from Holy Spirit.1 Corinthians 14:33, 14:40
Tongues were for men only. 1 Corinthians 14:34
They had to recognize these regulations as the commandments of the Lord. 1 Corinthians 14:37
The predominant gift was prophecy (preaching. 1 Corinthians 14:39

The Biblical model for speaking in tongues is not heeded in anyway, that should just solidify that speaking in gibberish is false today.

yup.

I am a firm believer that the sign gifts have ceased, perhaps a separate thread on the "perfect". is needed.

nope.

 

[ElectedbyHim]

yup.

nope.

I am assuming you do not believe the sign gifts have ceased.