Should all Christians speak in Tongues?

[ChristB4us]

Bad question. Whether undeniably a sign of having received the Holy Spirit, glossolalia is not necessary for salvation. It is a mistake to conflate glossolalia with regeneration or indwelling. Glossolalia occurs as a consequence of the indwelling Spirit, not the other way around.


The New Testament repeatedly has converts experience rebirth and indwelling at the time of conversion, not in two separate occasions. The Acts 19 group is the exception to the rule, not the rule. Furthermore, the prophetic utterance of tongues at conversion is something much different than post-conversion glossolalia occurring on other occasions (such as during a worship service). Glossolalia, according to Paul, is the least of the Spirit's gifts. The HS would be the greatest of Christ's gifts to us.

@STAND

Actually, the Acts 19 group were not originally believers in Jesus Christ and so it is hardly to be taken as an exception to the rule.

Acts 19:1And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,
Now this is to be discerned because Paul did not know what kind of disciples they were but they were certainly a disciples of a sort. There are 3 kinds of disciples in the days of Paul as there were in the days of Jesus Christ.
Luke 5:And they said unto him, Why do the disciples of John fast often, and make prayers, and likewise the disciples of the Pharisees; but thine eat and drink?

So keep that in mind when reading about Paul's question next.

2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.

Now this led Paul to suspect they were not believers in Jesus Christ for why he had asked what water baptism they were under next.

3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.

So that informed Paul that these were disciples of John the Baptist's for why he went on to tell them that Jesus Christ is the One John the Baptist was preaching about.

4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.

5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

7 And all the men were about twelve.

The only reason I believe these new converts were speaking in tongues was to be a witness to the others on this main road for travel of their conversion as well as the Good News in Christ.

So just an FYI there.

 

[ChristB4us]

Sorry if this seems repetitive. This was a post in another thread that was transferred to a thread of its own.

I attended a Pentecostal church for a bit and really didn't know what to make of the whole 'Baptism of the Holy Spirit' speaking in tongues phenomenon.

I was patient with it all, didn't really convert to the 'exuberant praise' thing, and I did some Bible studies with one of the Bible teachers there and honestly came away befuddled with it all really.

Have studied, researched, prayed and reflected for a good while, but I just don't know where I stand on the whole 'tongues' thing. I believe everything the Bible says about it, but I have real problems with what we are seeing today in how it is manifested and who is manifesting it.

There are technically two different types of 'tongues', glossolalia (language of angels - can't be readily translated by humans unless a special gift of translation exists) and xenolalia (a known human language that is unfamiliar/untaught to the person speaking it - but very easily recognized by most as a legit human language).

My biggest issue? The only type we ever see anybody performing is glossolalia, the type that, conveniently, can't be translated by the average human, that always sounds like 'gibberish' and often has repeating sounds (words?), chants, etc.

What say you?

Should all Christians hope and pray for this experience and is it necessary for Salvation, or as an undeniable sign of having received the Holy Spirit?

No.

If you consider the length and scope of what God the father does in drawing us unto the Son to reveal His Son to us so we can believe and be saved, no sign is required for why Jesus warned against this.

Matthew 12:38 Then certain of the scribes and of the Pharisees answered, saying, Master, we would see a sign from thee. 39 But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas: 40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Matthew 11:25 At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes. 26 Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight. 27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.

John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. 21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

So our believing in Jesus Christ is a manifested work of God.

Faith is a fruit of the Spirit;

Galatians 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, 23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

Faith comes by hearing the gospel;

Romans 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

The Holy Spirit comes on those that hear the word;

Acts 10:43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins. 44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.

So when we believe in Jesus Christ, we are born again of the Spirit as a manifested work of God.

Galatians 3:14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith..... 26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

Hebrews 11:1Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. 2 For by it the elders obtained a good report.

So those in the Pentecostal/ Charismatics churches that have their roots in Azusa Street Revival where the emphasis is on that baptism with the Holy Spirit with evidence of tongues are preaching another gospel; a gospel of tongues.

To be continued...

 

[ChristB4us]

My biggest issue? The only type we ever see anybody performing is glossolalia, the type that, conveniently, can't be translated by the average human, that always sounds like 'gibberish' and often has repeating sounds (words?), chants, etc.

What say you?

Should all Christians hope and pray for this experience and is it necessary for Salvation, or as an undeniable sign of having received the Holy Spirit?

Continued from first reply to @STAND 's OP

Any times that already saved believers will go to these Pentecostal/ Charismatic churches and experience that phenomenon and testify of it as "another" baptism with the Holy Ghost with evidence of tongues which they ought to discern as not of Him at all,..... have fallen away from the faith in Jesus Christ.

2 Corinthians 11:2 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ. 3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. 4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.

2 Corinthians 13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

Many will acknowledge that the Holy Spirit is in them and yet they are seeking to receiving Him again in hypocrisy.

1 Timothy 4:1Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; 2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;

So this should be no wonder why that tongue you are seeing in these Pentecostal and Charismatic churches are gibberish nonsense as found in the occult.

Isaiah 8:19 And when they shall say unto you, Seek unto them that have familiar spirits, and unto wizards that peep, and that mutter: should not a people seek unto their God? for the living to the dead?

In now way is any of God's gifts of the Spirit are for private use but for the benefit of the assembly.

1 Corinthians 12:7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.

None of the gifts are given by seeking another drink of the One Spirit and thereby separating from this testimony below in verse 13 that we are all suppose to share in.

1 Corinthians 12:12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.

13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

14 For the body is not one member, but many.

So here is a confirmation that no gift of the Spirit, let alone tongues, are for private use but for the benefit of the assembly.

19 And if they were all one member, where were the body? 20 But now are they many members, yet but one body. 21 And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you.

And yet that is what tongues for private users are saying that they need no other member of the body of Christ to interpret for them.

So like it or not, they are preaching another gospel with that emphasis on the baptism with the Holy Ghost with evidence of tongues and that is why that tongue is never the real God's gift of tongues is for God to speak unto the people in their native tongue as prophesied and does not serve as a sign or proof to the saved believer for anything when it serves as a sign towards unbelievers.

1 Corinthians 14:20 Brethren, be not children in understanding: howbeit in malice be ye children, but in understanding be men. 21 In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord. 22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.

23 If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those that are unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad?

I would apply verse 23 to anyone finding a lone person speaking or praying in tongues and thinking he has gone mad too. I would say that is an appearance of evil that saved believers should avoid with His help and just shun that tongue and pray normally.

1 Thessalonians 5:17 Pray without ceasing. 18 In every thing give thanks: for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus concerning you.........

21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good. 22 Abstain from all appearance of evil.

23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. 24 Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it.

25 Brethren, pray for us.

Also saved believers should not chase after another filling of the Holy Spirit for any other sign, healings, or miracles either les we make the Holy Spirit after the rudiments of the world for how they receives spirits multiple times like a medium in contacting the spirits of the dead.

Colossians 2:5 For though I be absent in the flesh, yet am I with you in the spirit, joying and beholding your order, and the stedfastness of your faith in Christ. 6 As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him: 7 Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving. 8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. 9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. 10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:

 

[Josheb]

@STAND

Actually, the Acts 19 group were not originally believers in Jesus Christ and so it is hardly to be taken as an exception to the rule.

Acts 19:1And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,
Now this is to be discerned because Paul did not know what kind of disciples they were but they were certainly a disciples of a sort. There are 3 kinds of disciples in the days of Paul as there were in the days of Jesus Christ.
Luke 5:And they said unto him, Why do the disciples of John fast often, and make prayers, and likewise the disciples of the Pharisees; but thine eat and drink?

So keep that in mind when reading about Paul's question next.

2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.

Now this led Paul to suspect they were not believers in Jesus Christ for why he had asked what water baptism they were under next.

3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.

So that informed Paul that these were disciples of John the Baptist's for why he went on to tell them that Jesus Christ is the One John the Baptist was preaching about.

4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.

5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

7 And all the men were about twelve.

The point is they believed in Jesus as John preached Jesus. The question is: Had they died before meeting Paul would they receive eternal life or not? I say they would. They fall into the same category as the repentant thief = belief without "spirit baptism."

The only reason I believe these new converts were speaking in tongues was to be a witness to the others on this main road for travel of their conversion as well as the Good News in Christ.

So just an FYI there.

It is true the speaking in tongues occurs sometimes as a witness (1 Cor. 14:22), but I will respectfully suggest "the only reason" you believe what you believe is because your extra-biblical doctrine tells you to believe that way, not actual scripture.

However, it is read and interpreted the fact remains the Acts 19 group is not the typical, commonly occurring occurrence. It is an exception to the rule, not the rule. The "standard operating procedure" in Acts and the epistolary is for a person to be indwelt and baptized on the same occasion and NOT have the two separated by large passages of time. Anytime we read of something different we know, or should recognize, that mention is an outlier, not the norm. It may, in fact, be mentioned for that very reason.

When it comes to the question asked in this op: "Should all Christians speak in tongues?" we have a fairly concise answer to the question in scripture.

1 Corinthians 12:27-13:1
Now you are Christ's body, and individually members of it. And God has appointed in the church, first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, various kinds of tongues. All are not apostles, are they? All are not prophets, are they? All are not teachers, are they? All are not workers of miracles, are they? All do not have gifts of healings, do they? All do not speak with tongues, do they? All do not interpret, do they? But earnestly desire the greater gifts. And I show you a still more excellent way. If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but do not have love, I have become a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal.

1 Corinthians 14:39-40
Therefore, my brethren, desire earnestly to prophesy, and do not forbid to speak in tongues. But all things must be done properly and in an orderly manner.

• Not everyone speaks in tongues.
• Do not forbid speaking in tongues.
• The better way, however, is love.

There is no end to the things over which otherwise devout, earnest, genuine Christians can and will divide. Tongues divided the early Church in Corinth. It divides many today. How is the divide handled? If it's not in love with love, then it is likely both sides are just making noise.

 

[ChristB4us]

The point is they believed in Jesus as John preached Jesus. The question is: Had they died before meeting Paul would they receive eternal life or not? I say they would. They fall into the same category as the repentant thief = belief without "spirit baptism."

John the Baptist was not preaching Jesus before Jesus had come to him.

Matthew 3:1 In those days came John the Baptist, preaching in the wilderness of Judaea, 2 And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand. 3 For this is he that was spoken of by the prophet Esaias, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.

John was prophesying of the One that is coming but he did not know Whom it was until Jesus had come for why he said this;

John 3:28 Ye yourselves bear me witness, that I said, I am not the Christ, but that I am sent before him. 29 He that hath the bride is the bridegroom: but the friend of the bridegroom, which standeth and heareth him, rejoiceth greatly because of the bridegroom's voice: this my joy therefore is fulfilled. 30 He must increase, but I must decrease.

But after a while, even he doubted Him for why he had sent one of His disciples to ask Him.

Luke 7:19 And John calling unto him two of his disciples sent them to Jesus, saying, Art thou he that should come? or look we for another? 20 When the men were come unto him, they said, John Baptist hath sent us unto thee, saying, Art thou he that should come? or look we for another?

21 And in that same hour he cured many of their infirmities and plagues, and of evil spirits; and unto many that were blind he gave sight. 22 Then Jesus answering said unto them, Go your way, and tell John what things ye have seen and heard; how that the blind see, the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, the deaf hear, the dead are raised, to the poor the gospel is preached.

So I doubt very much John the Baptist was preaching Jesus Christ that any of his own disciples that comes and goes, would all have known of Him for why it is very possible that when Paul told them about Jesus Christ being the One John was prophesying about, that was when they had believed in Him to be saved and got water baptized in His name to become disciples of Jesus Christ.

It is true the speaking in tongues occurs sometimes as a witness (1 Cor. 14:22), but I will respectfully suggest "the only reason" you believe what you believe is because your extra-biblical doctrine tells you to believe that way, not actual scripture.

There is no reason for them to speak in tongues when they speak all the same language when Paul was speaking to them. Since this was enroute, and so 1 Corinthains 14:22 comes into play for why and that is to be a witness to the unbelievers that were on that travel route also.

However, it is read and interpreted the fact remains the Acts 19 group is not the typical, commonly occurring occurrence. It is an exception to the rule, not the rule. The "standard operating procedure" in Acts and the epistolary is for a person to be indwelt and baptized on the same occasion and NOT have the two separated by large passages of time. Anytime we read of something different we know, or should recognize, that mention is an outlier, not the norm. It may, in fact, be mentioned for that very reason.

When it comes to the question asked in this op: "Should all Christians speak in tongues?" we have a fairly concise answer to the question in scripture.

1 Corinthians 12:27-13:1
Now you are Christ's body, and individually members of it. And God has appointed in the church, first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, various kinds of tongues. All are not apostles, are they? All are not prophets, are they? All are not teachers, are they? All are not workers of miracles, are they? All do not have gifts of healings, do they? All do not speak with tongues, do they? All do not interpret, do they? But earnestly desire the greater gifts. And I show you a still more excellent way. If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but do not have love, I have become a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal.

1 Corinthians 14:39-40
Therefore, my brethren, desire earnestly to prophesy, and do not forbid to speak in tongues. But all things must be done properly and in an orderly manner.

• Not everyone speaks in tongues.
• Do not forbid speaking in tongues.
• The better way, however, is love.

There is no end to the things over which otherwise devout, earnest, genuine Christians can and will divide. Tongues divided the early Church in Corinth. It divides many today. How is the divide handled? If it's not in love with love, then it is likely both sides are just making noise.

Only God can help you see that the tongues for private use is not of Him at all as He has done for me.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

There are technically two different types of 'tongues',

Nope - there's only ONE type of supernatural utterance, where the person so gifted speaks what the Holy SPirit puts into their mind without adding to, of subtracting from it.

There's a great VARIETY in the utterance, and "Tongues", "Interpretation of tongues", "Word of Wisdom", "Word of Knowledge", and "Prophesy", are all essentially the SAME GIFT - i.e. you SPEAK what the Holy Spirit gives you to speak (Same as Mark 13:11). The only difference among the gifts is the "Content of the utterance. "Theological classifications" mean nothing.

Should all Christians hope and pray for this experience and is it necessary for Salvation, or as an undeniable sign of having received the Holy Spirit?

Salvation is a totally separate issue - You're Born again of the Holy Spirit by FAITH, Who now INDWELLS YOU (which is what makes you a Christian).

The "Gifts" (1 cor 12) are the result of the Holy Spirit UPON the Christian , who already in indwelled by Him (John 20:22).

It's the Same as in the OLD Testament, where people were given supernatural abilities, without even being "Born Again" of the Spirit - since that was impossible until after Calvary. (Samson, Isaiah, Elijah, etc).

The "REAL SIGN" of being "Baptized in the Holy SPirit (to use pentecostal vernacular) is "power in ministry". ANYBODY can FAKE Tongues / prophesy with a little practice, and Pentecostal churches that teach "Priming the pump" (Speaking baby talk, or making random sounds) are practically Guaranteeing that the "tongues" that result will be phony as a $3 bill. The UPCI links "Tongues" with Salvation, but they have other Theological problems too.

Why WOULDN'T a Born Again Christian naturally desire whatever ministry gifts that God has for them?? For me "Tongues" are all well and good, but the REAL blessing has been the Bible teaching ministry that came along at the same time.

 

[Josheb]

John the Baptist was not preaching Jesus before Jesus had come to him.

That is incorrect.

Matthew 3:1 In those days came John the Baptist, preaching in the wilderness of Judaea, 2 And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand. 3 For this is he that was spoken of by the prophet Esaias, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.

And you just proved it. The kingdom and the king are inseparable.

John was prophesying of the One that is coming but he did not know Whom it was until Jesus had come..

That too is incorrect. He jumped in the womb when Mary was in his presence and while John may have been surprised (like every other Jew back then) Jesus did not overthrow the Romans, he knew who Jesus was and that he (John) was not fit to tie Jesus' sandals.

Only God can help you see that the tongues for private use is not of Him at all as He has done for me.

I do hope that is not intended to insinuate I or anyone else who disagrees is ignorant or blind. Post like that again and I'll leave the conversation. Keep the post about the post and not the posters.

 

[ChristB4us]

That is incorrect.

John the Baptist was preaching "about" Jesus Christ but he did not know it was Jesus Christ till He had come.

And you just proved it. The kingdom and the king are inseparable.

That reference was showing the context of what John the Baptist was preaching and he did not say the name of Jesus Christ at all.

That too is incorrect. He jumped in the womb when Mary was in his presence and while John may have been surprised (like every other Jew back then) Jesus did not overthrow the Romans, he knew who Jesus was and that he (John) was not fit to tie Jesus' sandals.

Kind of hard for a babe in the womb to have any doubts but outside of the womb where adults can have doubts as the years and days go on, and John did, for he had sent disciples to inquire form Jesus if He was the One or not or they were to wait for another.

I do hope that is not intended to insinuate I or anyone else who disagrees is ignorant or blind. Post like that again and I'll leave the conversation. Keep the post about the post and not the posters.

I am in the same boat as everyone else since wisdom has to come from the Lord.

Often times than not, we do not question what the church teaches us and when it comes to favorite teachers or preachers, we tend to take everything as said as true without confirming it with the Lord Jesus Christ in His words when something bothers us, but we rationalize it that most of the time he is right and so gloss over it, accepting it as true when we should not have done so.

If each of us by His grace & by His help, took the time to listen and discern with Him, it may lead by example for others that are led astray to do the same, even though at the moment, they do not seem to be listening to the truth nor repenting of the iniquity they are in.

 

[STAND]

Nope - there's only ONE type of supernatural utterance, where the person so gifted speaks what the Holy SPirit puts into their mind without adding to, of subtracting from it.

There's a great VARIETY in the utterance, and "Tongues", "Interpretation of tongues", "Word of Wisdom", "Word of Knowledge", and "Prophesy", are all essentially the SAME GIFT - i.e. you SPEAK what the Holy Spirit gives you to speak (Same as Mark 13:11). The only difference among the gifts is the "Content of the utterance. "Theological classifications" mean nothing.

Thank you for the clarification.

So what you're saying then, whether it is your intention or not, is that the vast majority of modern claims of tongues are fraudulent. They are almost ALL claimed to be done in the language of angels, as a communication only between the speaker and God, or in public as a language that cannot be translated.

This is called "Glossolalia" by those who have studied this phenomena for many decades.

Those "theologians", or whomever study this phenomena, classify this with the term "glossolalia" to differentiate it from the other form "xenolalia" which is the form the Bible describes - a form of speaking an unknown human language and that language being translated.

This is what the Bible teaches about the phenomena whether you declare it a "theological classification" or not. The Bible is the final word on the matter.

 

[Sheila3]

Sorry if this seems repetitive. This was a post in another thread that was transferred to a thread of its own.

I attended a Pentecostal church for a bit and really didn't know what to make of the whole 'Baptism of the Holy Spirit' speaking in tongues phenomenon.

I was patient with it all, didn't really convert to the 'exuberant praise' thing, and I did some Bible studies with one of the Bible teachers there and honestly came away befuddled with it all really.

Have studied, researched, prayed and reflected for a good while, but I just don't know where I stand on the whole 'tongues' thing. I believe everything the Bible says about it, but I have real problems with what we are seeing today in how it is manifested and who is manifesting it.

There are technically two different types of 'tongues', glossolalia (language of angels - can't be readily translated by humans unless a special gift of translation exists) and xenolalia (a known human language that is unfamiliar/untaught to the person speaking it - but very easily recognized by most as a legit human language).

My biggest issue? The only type we ever see anybody performing is glossolalia, the type that, conveniently, can't be translated by the average human, that always sounds like 'gibberish' and often has repeating sounds (words?), chants, etc.

What say you?

Should all Christians hope and pray for this experience and is it necessary for Salvation, or as an undeniable sign of having received the Holy Spirit?

Doesn't scripture indicate that when one speaks in the tongue that the Holy Ghost provides which seemingly is the tongue of angels is evidence that the Holy Ghost is present.
https://m.kingjamesbibleonline.org/Acts-Chapter-2/

I agree with you what people are calling tongues given by the Holy Spirit isn't but is a bunch of gibberish.

To my knowledge scripture does not indicate the gift of tongue from the Holy Ghost is necessary for salvation.

 

[Josheb]

John the Baptist was preaching "about" Jesus Christ but he did not know it was Jesus Christ till He had come.

Scripture indicates otherwise.

Matthew 3:1-3, 13-15
Now in those days John the Baptist came, preaching in the wilderness of Judea, saying, "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand." For this is the one referred to by Isaiah the prophet when he said, "The voice of one crying in the wilderness, 'make ready the way of the LORD, make His paths straight.'" ..........Then Jesus arrived from Galilee at the Jordan coming to John, to be baptized by him. But John tried to prevent him, saying, "I have need to be baptized by you, and do you come to me?" But Jesus answering said to him, "Permit it at this time; for in this way it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness." Then he permitted Him.

Why would John try to hinder Jesus' baptism if John did not know who and what Jesus is? Mark 1:7 tells us John did not consider himself worthy to tie the Messiah's sandals and he knew Jesus would be baptizing folks with the Holy Spirit.

Mark 1:4-8
John the Baptist appeared in the wilderness preaching a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins. And all the country of Judea was going out to him, and all the people of Jerusalem; and they were being baptized by him in the Jordan River, confessing their sins. John was clothed with camel's hair and wore a leather belt around his waist, and his diet was locusts and wild honey. And he was preaching, and saying, "After me one is coming who is mightier than I, and I am not fit to stoop down and untie the thong of His sandals. I baptized you with water; but he will baptize you with the Holy Spirit."


Luke 3 confirms Matthew and Mark. So, putting the two texts together, we understand that upon meeting Jesus, John did not consider himself worthy to baptize Jesus and, therefore, tried not to permit it. How could he do ANY of that if he did not know who and what is Jesus? Some confusion may exist because in John 1:33 John says, "I did not recognize him...." but that should NOT be read to conflict with John exclaiming, "Behold! The Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world!" as Jesus approached. John did recognize Jesus and John did know who and what is Jesus.

John 1:24-34
Now they had been sent from the Pharisees. They asked him, and said to him, "Why then are you baptizing, if you are not the Christ, nor Elijah, nor the Prophet?" John answered them saying, "I baptize in water, but among you stands one whom you do not know. It is he who comes after me, the thong of whose sandal I am not worthy to untie." These things took place in Bethany beyond the Jordan, where John was baptizing. The next day he saw Jesus coming to him and said, "Behold, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world! "This is he on behalf of whom I said, 'After me comes a man who has a higher rank than I, for He existed before me.' I did not recognize him, but so that he might be manifested to Israel, I came baptizing in water." John testified saying, "I have seen the Spirit descending as a dove out of heaven, and He remained upon Him. "I did not recognize Him, but He who sent me to baptize in water said to me, 'He upon whom you see the Spirit descending and remaining upon Him, this is the One who baptizes in the Holy Spirit.' "I myself have seen and have testified that this is the Son of God."


Whole scripture.

• John knew he needed to be baptized by Jesus.
• John knew Jesus would baptize in the Holy Spirit.
• John recognized Jesus as Jesus approached John.
• John recognized Jesus as the Lamb of God.
• John recognized Jesus as the one who would take away the sins of the world.
• John knew Jesus was of higher rank than John.
• John recognized Jesus from within the womb.

Luke 1:39-42
Now at this time Mary arose and went in a hurry to the hill country, to a city of Judah, and entered the house of Zacharias and greeted Elizabeth. When Elizabeth heard Mary's greeting, the baby leaped in her womb; and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit. And she cried out with a loud voice and said, "Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb!

So, given the evidence from scripture, I must disagree. John did know Jesus before they actually met as adults and when Jesus came to John to be baptized John did in fact recognize him and know who and what Jesus is.

That reference was showing the context of what John the Baptist was preaching and he did not say the name of Jesus Christ at all.

His name is not "Jesus Christ." His name was Jesus ben Joseph (or Yeshua ben Yosef, if you prefer). "Christ" or "Messiah" was his title, not his name. Just because John did not say, "Jesus Christ" does not mean he did not know Jesus. That is a false-cause fallacy (if he'd said "X" that alone would mean John know). John did not say, "Jesus Christ," but John did explicitly call Jesus the Lamb of God that takes away the sins of the world, thereby indicating his knowledge of who and what Jesus is.

It's quite likely that the two men met often as boys since their mothers knew each other and knew they were privileged by God to serve His purpose.

Kind of hard for a babe in the womb to have any doubts but outside of the womb where adults can have doubts as the years and days go on, and John did, for he had sent disciples to inquire form Jesus if He was the One or not or they were to wait for another.

Doubt is not ignorance.

I am in the same boat as everyone else since wisdom has to come from the Lord.

Appeals to some unidentified majority is a fallacious argument (argumentum ad populum) and whatever wisdom God provides NEVER contradicts His own written word.

Often times than not, we do not question what the church teaches us...

Irrelevant. I did not base my view(s) on teachings I read or heard from others. I based my position on what is plainly stated and necessarily implied y God's own written word.

If each of us by His grace & by His help, took the time to listen and discern with Him...

Yep. Now that the scriptures have been provided you should take the time to read, listen, and discern because what you've posted contradicts God's word.

 

[STAND]

Doesn't scripture indicate that when one speaks in the tongue that the Holy Ghost provides which seemingly is the tongue of angels is evidence that the Holy Ghost is present.
https://m.kingjamesbibleonline.org/Acts-Chapter-2/

No, it actually seems to say that all tongues are for use through translation from somebody present.

It says that if someone is speaking in tongues, it should be done in a manner that edifies, that actually contributes something to all those present. It can only do that if it is also translated by somebody and if one person is speaking in tongues at a time.

What we see in churches today is entire congregations, or many present, speaking in what can only be described as gibberish (Glossolalia) with nobody to translate. There is a reason we are not seeing the "xenolalia" form anywhere.

Xenolalia would be very difficult to fake and can be proven accurate or fraudulent.

We are seeing a fraudulent form of Glossolalia across the board because there is no way to claim that it is fake. If somebody says "Hey, I'm speaking a language of angels! See?!!", there is no way to prove them wrong.

But the Bible teaches that this is fraudulent.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

Thank you for the clarification.

So what you're saying then, whether it is your intention or not, is that the vast majority of modern claims of tongues are fraudulent.

Your imagination is working overtime. I said absolutely no such thing. True, some manifestations are phony. YOU WAN THEM ALL TO BE TO SATISFY YOUR PERSONAL / DENOMINATIONAL PARADIGM.

They are almost ALL claimed to be done in the language of angels,

Not true. There's no Biblical evidence that they are "Angelic languages". Read 1 Cor 13:1 in context.

as a communication only between the speaker and God,

1 Cor 14:2

or in public as a language that cannot be translated.

Not necessarily true. Speaking a KNOWN language is also an occasional occurranc

This is what the Bible teaches about the phenomena

Correction: this is YOUR INTERPRETATION of what the Bible eaches from a cessationist theologiocal position.

The Bible is the final word on the matter.

Agreed.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

Sorry if this seems repetitive. This was a post in another thread that was transferred to a thread of its own.

I attended a Pentecostal church for a bit and really didn't know what to make of the whole 'Baptism of the Holy Spirit' speaking in tongues phenomenon.

I was patient with it all, didn't really convert to the 'exuberant praise' thing, and I did some Bible studies with one of the Bible teachers there and honestly came away befuddled with it all really.

Have studied, researched, prayed and reflected for a good while, but I just don't know where I stand on the whole 'tongues' thing. I believe everything the Bible says about it, but I have real problems with what we are seeing today in how it is manifested and who is manifesting it.

There are technically two different types of 'tongues', glossolalia (language of angels - can't be readily translated by humans unless a special gift of translation exists) and xenolalia (a known human language that is unfamiliar/untaught to the person speaking it - but very easily recognized by most as a legit human language).

My biggest issue? The only type we ever see anybody performing is glossolalia, the type that, conveniently, can't be translated by the average human, that always sounds like 'gibberish' and often has repeating sounds (words?), chants, etc.

What say you?

Should all Christians hope and pray for this experience and is it necessary for Salvation, or as an undeniable sign of having received the Holy Spirit?

The "Baptism in the holy spirit" (to use Assembly of God vernacular) is what Jesus referred to as being "Endued with power from on high" which took place as recorded in Acts 2:4. The disciples WERE ALREADY indwelled by the Holy Spirit since He was ministered to them at John 20:22 with the effect documented at Luke 24:45.

ONE ASPECT of being "endued with power from on high" was that the disciples spoke in various human languages, which people there present understood, and the miracle was that the Disciples shouldn't have known the languages they were speaking. The languages were given to them by the Holy Spirit specifically for that occasion.

God isn't a "One trick Pony", and the FACT that the Disciples spoke in known languages at Pentecost DOESN'T MEAN that God's Gift of tongues ALWAYS consists of that specific manifestation. In 1 Cor 14, it's obvious that NOBODY is understanding the Tongues that are being manifested, and Paul doesn't criticize that, but states that an interpreter (An separate gift) is required for the understanding to come.

Personal opinion: since the Corinthian church was an undisciplined and flesh driven bunch, people were blatting in tongues which WERE NOT Messages to the congregation - but just "showing off" their supposed "spirituality". I could do the same thing, but I know the difference between tongues as personal ministry, and being burdened to speak tongues in a meeting context, in which case God would have already burdened an Interpreter to speak the message to the congregation when the time came. The Holy Spirit doesn't cause confusion. We do that by ourselves easily. I speak in tongues in the private sense (Self edification 1 Cor 14:4), and have NEVER been burdened to speak in a tongue in a meeting, although I have been burdened to Interpret.

With the exception of "Oneness Pentecostals" (the UPCI Denomination) NO major pentecostal denomination teaches that speaking in tongues is necessary for salvation.

And where the "Baptism in the Holy Spirit" is concerned, "tongues" is a minor part of it. I was immediately propelled into an intense Bible teaching ministry to liberal Christian denominations including Catholics for over a decade after being "Baptised in the Spirit", and "tongues" were never a significant part of that.

 

[Mr GLee]

ONE ASPECT of being "endued with power from on high" was that the disciples spoke in various human languages, which people there present understood, and the miracle was that the Disciples shouldn't have known the languages they were speaking. The languages were given to them by the Holy Spirit specifically for that occasion.

God isn't a "One trick Pony", and the FACT that the Disciples spoke in known languages at Pentecost DOESN'T MEAN that God's Gift of tongues ALWAYS consists of that specific manifestation. In 1 Cor 14, it's obvious that NOBODY is understanding the Tongues that are being manifested, and Paul doesn't criticize that, but states that an interpreter (An separate gift) is required for the understanding to come.

Tongues are prophesy nothing more and nothing less It was the apostles sent messengers sent with the living abiding word that worked in thier new hearts.

The language prophecy it was not from apostles (sent ones) UPS, Fed X again they delivered the word of God not authors .

The Lord knows all the languages .again his words of prohecy .

They made a mockery of the living word of God. Demonstrating it by making baby noises falling backwards. . slain in the Spirit

 

[TonyChanYT]

Sorry if this seems repetitive. This was a post in another thread that was transferred to a thread of its own.

I attended a Pentecostal church for a bit and really didn't know what to make of the whole 'Baptism of the Holy Spirit' speaking in tongues phenomenon.

I was patient with it all, didn't really convert to the 'exuberant praise' thing, and I did some Bible studies with one of the Bible teachers there and honestly came away befuddled with it all really.

Have studied, researched, prayed and reflected for a good while, but I just don't know where I stand on the whole 'tongues' thing. I believe everything the Bible says about it, but I have real problems with what we are seeing today in how it is manifested and who is manifesting it.

There are technically two different types of 'tongues', glossolalia (language of angels - can't be readily translated by humans unless a special gift of translation exists) and xenolalia (a known human language that is unfamiliar/untaught to the person speaking it - but very easily recognized by most as a legit human language).

My biggest issue? The only type we ever see anybody performing is glossolalia, the type that, conveniently, can't be translated by the average human, that always sounds like 'gibberish' and often has repeating sounds (words?), chants, etc.

What say you?

Should all Christians hope and pray for this experience and is it necessary for Salvation, or as an undeniable sign of having received the Holy Spirit?

Acts 1:

3 They saw what seemed to be tongues of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them. 4 All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit enabled them.
5 Now there were staying in Jerusalem God-fearing Jews from every nation under heaven. 6 When they heard this sound, a crowd came together in bewilderment, because each one heard their own language being spoken. 7Utterly amazed, they asked: “Aren’t all these who are speaking Galileans? 8 Then how is it that each of us hears them in our native language?

This phenomenon is called xenolalia: A believer speaks in a human language he doesn't know.

There is another class of speaking in tongues. 1 Corinthians 14:

2, “For anyone who speaks in a tongue does not speak to people but God. Indeed, no one understands them; they utter mysteries by the Spirit.”

This latter kind of speaking in tongues is called glossolalia: A believer speaks non-human language.

What's the purpose of glossolalia?

4 Anyone who speaks in a tongue edifies themselves, but the one who prophesies edifies the church. 5I would like every one of you to speak in tongues, b but I would rather have you prophesy. The one who prophesies is greater than the one who speaks in tongues, unless someone interprets, so that the church may be edified.

1. It edifies the speaker himself.
2. When interpreted, it edifies the listeners in the church.

Is glossolalia available today?

I think so. Jesus promised in Mark 16:

17 And these signs will accompany those who believe: in my name they will cast out demons; they will speak in new tongues; 18 they will pick up serpents with their hands; and if they drink any deadly poison, it will not hurt them; they will lay their hands on the sick, and they will recover.”

Does every believer have this gift?

No, 1 Corinthians 12:

7 Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. 8 To one there is given through the Spirit a message of wisdom, to another a message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, 9to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, 10 to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues, a and to still another the interpretation of tongues. 11 All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he distributes them to each one, just as he determines.

So, it is up to the Holy Spirit to hand out these gifts.

Glossolalia seems to be some spiritual/angelic language. 1 Corinthians 13:

1 If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal.

1 Corinthians 14:

2 For one who speaks in a tongue speaks not to men but to God; for no one understands him, but he utters mysteries in the Spirit.

Do you have to speak in tongues to be saved?

No, not every Christian is required to speak in tongues.

Are some people faking speaking in tongues?

Probably.

There are three uses of tongues:

1. A Christian speaks a foreign language he does not know.
2. A Christian speaks an angelic language publically with interpretation to edify the church.
3. A Christian speaks an angelic language privately to God to edify himself.

Not every Christian is required to do any of these. I have done #3 occasionally. When I did, I sensed simple peace and joy.

 

[Mr GLee]

Acts 1:


This phenomenon is called xenolalia: A believer speaks in a human language he doesn't know.

There is another class of speaking in tongues. 1 Corinthians 14:


This latter kind of speaking in tongues is called glossolalia: A believer speaks non-human language.

What's the purpose of glossolalia?

1. It edifies the speaker himself.
2. When interpreted, it edifies the listeners in the church.

Is glossolalia available today?

I think so. Jesus promised in Mark 16:


Does every believer have this gift?

No, 1 Corinthians 12:


So, it is up to the Holy Spirit to hand out these gifts.

Glossolalia seems to be some spiritual/angelic language. 1 Corinthians 13:


1 Corinthians 14:


Do you have to speak in tongues to be saved?

No, not every Christian is required to speak in tongues.

Are some people faking speaking in tongues?

Probably.

There are three uses of tongues:

1. A Christian speaks a foreign language he does not know.
2. A Christian speaks an angelic language publically with interpretation to edify the church.
3. A Christian speaks an angelic language privately to God to edify himself.

Not every Christian is required to do any of these. I have done #3 occasionally. When I did, I sensed simple peace and joy.

Tongue are prophecy .

God speaking through his fallen creation ..

No such thing as a sign gift. (charismatic)

We walk by faith the unseen things of God .

 

[Bob Carabbio]

The language prophecy it was not from apostles (sent ones) UPS, Fed X again they delivered the word of God not authors .

BINGO!!! If the human mind is involved in creating the "Prophesy / Tongue / Word of knowledge / Word of wisdom / Interpretation", then it's not the Spiritual gift at all.

They made a mockery of the living word of God. Demonstrating it by making baby noises falling backwards. . slain in the Spirit

"Priming the pump" is a guarantee that the "Tongues" will be phony. When GOD gives the words to say THEN you say them.

Falling (slain) under the power of the Spirit is not necessarily phony. Biblically people did fall under the power. That you don't agree with any of it is unimportant.

 

[Mr GLee]

BINGO!!! If the human mind is involved in creating the "Prophesy / Tongue / Word of knowledge / Word of wisdom / Interpretation", then it's not the Spiritual gift at all.

"Priming the pump" is a guarantee that the "Tongues" will be phony. When GOD gives the words to say THEN you say them.

Falling (slain) under the power of the Spirit is not necessarily phony. Biblically people did fall under the power. That you don't agree with any of it is unimportant.

Tongues are prophecy

There is nothing we can do outwardly as a sign to prove the inward work of God . Not tongues a sign of unbelief . Not church attendance. not reading ones bible

Faith the unseen eternal ,things or power of of God

I think you are confused with spiritual gifts or what some call Charismatics. Those who make baby noises to mock prophecy and fall backward slain in the spirit.

Its prophecy some refused to hear. God hides in parables the spiritual understanding of those who mock his law (Isaiah 28) spoken of in verse 21-22

1 Corithin 14: 21 In the law it is written, With men of other tongues(all the nations of the world and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord. Wherefore tongues. (No interpretation from Christ) are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

Tongues are prophecy

There is nothing we can do outwardly as a sign to prove the inward work of God . Not tongues a sign of unbelief . Not church attendance. not reading ones bible

Faith the unseen eternal ,things or power of of God

I think you are confused with spiritual gifts or what some call Charismatics. Those who make baby noises to mock prophecy and fall backward slain in the spirit.

Its prophecy some refused to hear. God hides in parables the spiritual understanding of those who mock his law (Isaiah 28) spoken of in verse 21-22

1 Corithin 14: 21 In the law it is written, With men of other tongues(all the nations of the world and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord. Wherefore tongues. (No interpretation from Christ) are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.

Sorry, but I've spoken in tongues, for nigh onto 50 years now, and I'm completely aware where it, and the Gift of interpretation, and the gift of Prophesy comes from, how they work (and how they DON'T work), and how to manifest them. They're called "Charisma" ("Spirituals" in Greek).

You're obviously a "pentehostile" with no experience, except for your jaded observations, and denominational theology.

You are accurate, though, that Tongues, Prophesy, Interpretatyion of tongues, Word of Knowledge, and Word of Wisdom, are all Prophetic (Spoken) gifts, which The Holy Spirit, according to HIS WILL gives to humans. He did in the OLD TEstament, and He does today. the "Charisma" WILL NEVER CONTRADICT the Written Word in letter or in spirit, but may easily contradict human theology.