Where Is the Greek Word for These Words in English?

[Josheb]

Thanks for pointing that out because as he explained it by changing out "In the beginning" with "When", I took it to mean differently as the following verses was how God did it, thereby the earth was not there at all, and neither the heavens yet in verse 1.

Thanks to Josheb, I had thought I had understood the whole video but I reckon not because when he explained it by changing out "In the beginning" with "When", I took it to mean differently as the following verses was how God did it, thereby the earth was not there at all, and neither were the heavens yet.

Let me clarify because Heiser's teaching is easily reconciled with whole scripture. God made the earth, and then He formed it. The earth He originally made was formless and void. A lot is being said there, especially once it's realized the Hebrew "bohu" eventually becomes connotative with loss, fallen, desolation and wilderness. One of the larger themes of the creation account it not simply God creating, or "making" a bunch of stuff, but His ordering it. He brought things into existence and ordered the existence's existence, not just for a "moment" but in time and space.

There's no time, no before or after in eternity. There is only the infinite now.


Have you ever seen those three-dimensional graphics showing how the earth and the other planets move around the moving sun, all of which move in a spiral, not a plane, around the center of our galaxy, the Milky Way, which in turn moves in a huge, gigantic cluster of intergalactic phenomena..... all created and ordered by God. That's just the physical stuff. The "heavens" literally means the sky, but as scripture unfolds, we find there is a pile of stuff in the heavens (like the heavenly host) God also made which is not explained in the opening verse of the Bible. If we applied our still very limited knowledge of physics and cosmology, we might argue God made the singularity and then ordered its "explosion." The earth was formless and void, and God gave it form and substance and He did so in 10 or 11 dimensions, of which we currently grasp only four. Of course, the Bible is not a physics textbook so there are real limits to my speculation. My point is simply that there is a lot being said in the Genesis creation account and a linguistic breakdown is helpful but not all-informing, especially when the rest of scripture is neglected. Ultimately, Genesis, nor the rest of the Bible is about what existed when and how in the physical sense.


The Bible is the story of God's work through Christ. It's about Jesus, not us.

 

[EarlyActs]

Sorry this one lost its connection: you had mentioned everything had to be done by the 6th day. You have a point, unless in general, he wasn’t thinking of the distant worlds anyway. Which is likely both of the days of creation and of 2P3 and the pagans there.

And you can make day 1 light utterly miraculous, without any normal source. But the ancient mind only concerned itself with the local.

 

[ChristB4us]

That is not true at all. What Heiser means to say (he is not as precise as he needed to be), is that at the point of the start of the Creation narrative, that is the state of matter. That is not the point where God had actually begun to create.

Well, as he switched "in the beginning.. " with "when", I saw the verses that follow was how God did it in verse 1 in both ways Still do.

 

[ChristB4us]

Let me clarify because Heiser's teaching is easily reconciled with whole scripture. God made the earth, and then He formed it. The earth He originally made was formless and void. A lot is being said there, especially once it's realized the Hebrew "bohu" eventually becomes connotative with loss, fallen, desolation and wilderness.

You should consider that they are applying the meaning of that word from Jeremiah 4:23 as if meaning the same thing in Genesis 1:2 when Genesis 1:2 is testifying that the earth was not there at all... without form and void as in talking about the whole planet earth that isn;t there rather than a part of it on earth as Jeremiah 4:23 was describing in context.

It took God 2 days to create the earth and the 2nd day the earth was just a water planet with an upper atmosphere then. The 3rd day God was finished creating the earth for why He said it was good then the third day bit not the 2nd day because He was not done creating the earth.

Then God created the heavens the 4th day for the purpose of giving lights to the earth for signs, seasons times and years.
Hence there was no universe before that day otherwise God created nothing that day.

The way everything concludes in Genesis 2:1-3 testify to how God did it in Genesis 1:1.

Genesis 1:1In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

Genesis 2:1Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.

2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made. 3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

If God did not finish the heavens that 4th day to rest on the 7th day, as if He is still creating the heavens, then how can He rest the 7th day from all that He has made?

 

[eclipseEventSigns]

Well, as he switched "in the beginning.. " with "when", I saw the verses that follow was how God did it in verse 1 in both ways Still do.

You don't make any sense. Did you actually watch the video? Do you actually know what he was saying with that slide? Do you know what he was actually talking about? Your comment makes it obvious you have no idea.

 

[ChristB4us]

You don't make any sense. Did you actually watch the video? Do you actually know what he was saying with that slide? Do you know what he was actually talking about? Your comment makes it obvious you have no idea.

Well, he did not really connect how the heavens and the earth was already there in the context of the first creation account from Genesis 1:1 to Genesis 2:3 since he glossed over the actual creation of the earth in Day 2 & day 3 and the actual creation of the heavens in day 4. I believe he is still influenced by error in not seeing how switching out the "when" with "in the beginning" actually states how that came about.

So When and In the beginning still supports how I see it in scripture as a literal 6 days of creation as there was nothing before day one but water and why the light was created to establish "the beginning" by that light as there was evening and morning that first 24 hour day and every day since. I am sure the teacher in that video will be kicking himself if the Lord ever help him to see his error.

 

[eclipseEventSigns]

Well, he did not really connect how the heavens and the earth was already there in the context of the first creation account from Genesis 1:1 to Genesis 2:3 since he glossed over the actual creation of the earth in Day 2 & day 3 and the actual creation of the heavens in day 4. I believe he is still influenced by error in not seeing how switching out the "when" with "in the beginning" actually states how that came about.

How YOU see scripture? Well, that is the all important thing. What it means to YOU.
God says what He means and means what He says. THAT is the pursuit of true knowledge.

 

[ChristB4us]

How YOU see scripture? Well, that is the all important thing. What it means to YOU.
God says what He means and means what He says. THAT is the pursuit of true knowledge.

Well, yes and the reason I see it that way is the conclusion in Genesis 2:1-3 for how He rested on the 7th day from all His creation.

Genesis 2:1Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them. 2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made. 3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

So that is why I apply Genesis 1:1 in the conclusion of Genesis 2:1-3 in how God created the heavens and the earth and therefre the earth and the heavens did not exist in Day One when God established the very beginning with that evening and morning as we know it on Day One by that light.

Genesis 1:1In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. 2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

So in regards to the guy in the video...

Genesis 1:1When God created the heaven and the earth. 2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

Verse 2 is signifying the earth was not there. All that was there, was water. Therefore the earth was without form.... because and void, not that it was emptied like Jeremiah 4:23 says in context, but it did not exist as in void in that very beginning in that first day.

 

[Josheb]

You should consider that they are applying the meaning of that word from Jeremiah 4:23 as if meaning the same thing in Genesis 1:2 when Genesis 1:2 is testifying that the earth was not there at all... without form and void as in talking about the whole planet earth that isn;t there rather than a part of it on earth as Jeremiah 4:23 was describing in context.

Why? I don't have conflicts between my reading of scripture and my cosmology? If you do then perhaps you ought to specify that. Maybe your fellow posters can help reconcile any seeming conflicts.

It took God 2 days to create the earth and the 2nd day the earth was just a water planet with an upper atmosphere then. The 3rd day God was finished creating the earth for why He said it was good then the third day bit not the 2nd day because He was not done creating the earth.

Then God created the heavens the 4th day for the purpose of giving lights to the earth for signs, seasons times and years.
Hence there was no universe before that day otherwise God created nothing that day.

The way everything concludes in Genesis 2:1-3 testify to how God did it in Genesis 1:1.

Genesis 1:1In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

Genesis 2:1Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.

2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made. 3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

Is it understood the Genesis account(s) are not exhaustive? When scripture says the earth was formless and then the scriptures speak of water (which would be a form) it is not contradicting itself. The problem here is not scripture. The problem is your reading of scripture.

If God did not finish the heavens that 4th day to rest on the 7th day, as if He is still creating the heavens, then how can He rest the 7th day from all that He has made?

With respect, you're too bound by our sense and meaning of time. God finished everything, but everything He finished is still unfolding, ensuing, or coming to completion. All that was made pertaining to Jesus is still happening. God is finished. The timeline for us is not. The creation story uses language we can understand but for God there is no "day," no "before" or "after," no "begun," or "finished." God exists in eternity and in eternity there is only the infinite now. For us a day is measure by one rotation of the earth relevant to the sun, but there was no sun until the fourth day, and for at least one of those days the earth was formless (what would the rotation of a formless thing look like, exactly?).

 

[ChristB4us]

Why? I don't have conflicts between my reading of scripture and my cosmology? If you do then perhaps you ought to specify that. Maybe your fellow posters can help reconcile any seeming conflicts.

Is it understood the Genesis account(s) are not exhaustive? When scripture says the earth was formless and then the scriptures speak of water (which would be a form) it is not contradicting itself. The problem here is not scripture. The problem is your reading of scripture.

With respect, you're too bound by our sense and meaning of time. God finished everything, but everything He finished is still unfolding, ensuing, or coming to completion. All that was made pertaining to Jesus is still happening. God is finished. The timeline for us is not. The creation story uses language we can understand but for God there is no "day," no "before" or "after," no "begun," or "finished." God exists in eternity and in eternity there is only the infinite now. For us a day is measure by one rotation of the earth relevant to the sun, but there was no sun until the fourth day, and for at least one of those days the earth was formless (what would the rotation of a formless thing look like, exactly?).

Since it is on God to cause the increase and to enable us to receive the truth in His words, then each of us has to go to Him for help to make sure we are rightly dividing the word of truth.

I think it is important to rely on Jesus Christ for discerning the KJV for the meat of His words.

The Hebrew word for the English word firmament is “raqiya” which the Strong’s Concordance has it by assigning only one definition to this.

HTML Bible Index - King James Version - Strongs Concordance - Frames Version (sacrednamebible.com)

from 'raqa`' (7554); properly, an expanse, i.e. the firmament or (apparently) visible arch of the sky:--firmament.

I’d say because this firmament in the midst of the waters divide the waters from the waters in vs 6, one could say gravity was created even though the firmament is the heaven or the upper atmosphere as we would call it the sky.

So the upper atmosphere as in the sky that divided the waters from the waters is how I see the waters beneath the sky as the water planet, the beginning of the creation of earth and the waters above the sky, where the second heaven is yet to be created until the 4th day.

Genesis 1:6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.

7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.

8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.

So I do see the waters above the sky as that excess water by how it would be utilized in creating the heavens the 4th day.

It is an interesting point of view though but I believe the point of citing this below;

Genesis 7:11 In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, the same day were all the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened.

12 And the rain was upon the earth forty days and forty nights.

This to show that the excess water came from the fountains of the deep for how they were broken up by those asteroid impacts.

And the heavens were opened as the mist that covered the earth in watering the earth like in a misty greenhouse, were drawn up towards the moon that started moving slowly away from the earth due to asteroid impacts on the moon.

The drawing of the mist upwards caused them to condense into clouds to rain for the first time on earth. The window of the heavens being opened would suggest that because of that mist, the stars were not so clearly seen as they are now, depending on the clouds.

Anyway, I see how assigning the waters being above the heavens for when God created the heavens on the 4th day, the waters above the sky is no longer mentioned.

Which leads me to conclude today that the waters above the heavens was used to create the universe the 4th day. So I learn something new today.

Thanks again for sharing your knowledge and understanding here

 

[Josheb]

I think it is important to rely on Jesus Christ for discerning the KJV for the meat of His words.

I think the KJV should be marginalized, if kept at all. I have no particular disdain for the KJV but it is not the most accurate translation of the original languages. Nor is it free of 17th century theological bias. Unblessedly, none of our English translations are perfect. However, in the age of the internet the matter of translation is largely moot because within seconds you and I and everyone else with internet access can call up the Hebrew and Greek and more than 20 English translations and examine the text ourselves to find the correct and the incorrect. We have websites like Bill Mounce's and Michael Heiser's (link already provided). We should be suspicious of KJVOist sources - especially those ignoring objectivity.

 

[eclipseEventSigns]

I think the KJV should be marginalized, if kept at all. I have no particular disdain for the KJV but it is not the most accurate translation of the original languages. Nor is it free of 17th century theological bias. Unblessedly, none of our English translations are perfect. However, in the age of the internet the matter of translation is largely moot because within seconds you and I and everyone else with internet access can call up the Hebrew and Greek and more than 20 English translations and examine the text ourselves to find the correct and the incorrect. We have websites like Bill Mounce's and Michael Heiser's (link already provided). We should be suspicious of KJVOist sources - especially those ignoring objectivity.

And the original Aramaic text of the New Testament. Which solves pretty much every question people have about the text in Greek.

 

[ChristB4us]

I think the KJV should be marginalized, if kept at all. I have no particular disdain for the KJV but it is not the most accurate translation of the original languages. Nor is it free of 17th century theological bias. Unblessedly, none of our English translations are perfect. However, in the age of the internet the matter of translation is largely moot because within seconds you and I and everyone else with internet access can call up the Hebrew and Greek and more than 20 English translations and examine the text ourselves to find the correct and the incorrect. We have websites like Bill Mounce's and Michael Heiser's (link already provided). We should be suspicious of KJVOist sources - especially those ignoring objectivity.

I know that the KJV is not a perfect Bible but I do rely on Jesus Christ as my Good Shepherd & Friend for wisdom and discernment in the meat of His words that have been largely kept by the grace of God and His help, thanks to those that loved Him and His words.

I believe Matthew 27:52-53 was inserted into scriptures of that false teaching that the resurrection was past already that Paul was talking about in 2 Timothy 2:18. I also believe Paul's exhortation to study the scriptures in 2 Timothy 2:15 and to shun tongues for private use in 2 Timothy 2:16 indicated what Peter was seeing and hearing on how wayward believers were wresting the scriptures.

2 Peter 3:15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; 16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. 17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.

They took out 1 John 5:7 of the Three Witnesses in Heaven and yet by taking it out, how can the One Witness of God in heaven regarding His Son be greater than the witnesses of men in the earth in verse 9 when by His words, John 8:17, it takes two witnesses to make a witness true.

So it is very likely that we need His wisdom to see what is not lining up with scriptures that the wayward has wrested from by changing the message in 1 Corinthians 14:2,4,& 28 as if tongues can edify self when in that chapter, Paul is instructing believers that speak in tongues as manifested by the Holy Spirit, for the believers to pray that someone else will interpret so that the tongue speaker can understand that tongue and that tongue would be fruitful to himself.

And so 1 Corinthians 14:4 is an outright lie saying that tongues can edify self when it needs interpretation for that tongue speaker to benefit from it.

Those that wrest the scriptures did not cover their tracks very well when Paul set the precedent in 1 Corinthians 12:7,19-21 that none of the gifts are for private use but for the profit of the assembly.

But they do not discern with Jesus Christ and so it is no wonder why many are not hearing the word of God now for why they are going astray,

Amos 8:11 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord God, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the Lord:

12 And they shall wander from sea to sea, and from the north even to the east, they shall run to and fro to seek the word of the Lord, and shall not find it.

13 In that day shall the fair virgins and young men faint for thirst.

They go after other signs besides the apostate calling of seeking the baptism of the Holy Ghost with evidence of tongues as they do receive the "holy Spirit" for other signs too like holy laughter... slain in the spirit.. being drunk in the spirit... all which is not of God as God is not the author of confusion in any churches of the saints and so not behind tongues for private use as gibberish nonsense which is the epitome of confusion.

So.. yeah.. the KJV is not a perfect Bible but I got Jesus Christ to help me discern the meat of His words to know where those that wrested scripture did it at since scripture cannot go against scripture.

 

[Josheb]

I know that the KJV is not a perfect Bible but I do rely on Jesus Christ as my Good Shepherd & Friend for wisdom and discernment in the meat of His words that have been largely kept by the grace of God and His help, thanks to those that loved Him and His words.

God is the one ultimately responsible for His word. God has seen fit to provide men and women who translate His word as He sees fit for His purpose. He even allows disobedience and heretics.

I believe Matthew 27:52-53 was inserted into scriptures of that false teaching that the resurrection was past already that Paul was talking about in 2 Timothy 2:18. I also believe Paul's exhortation to study the scriptures in 2 Timothy 2:15 and to shun tongues for private use in 2 Timothy 2:16 indicated what Peter was seeing and hearing on how wayward believers were wresting the scriptures.

??????

Do you mean to say the resurrection has occurred and there will be no other? Matthew 27:52-53 may be an addition to scripture but neither it nor any of the other texts you cited state the resurrection of anyone but Jesus had already occurred and there will be no other resurrection. I'm not sure where you got that idea.

2 Peter 3:15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; 16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. 17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.

They took out 1 John 5:7 of the Three Witnesses in Heaven and yet by taking it out, how can the One Witness of God in heaven regarding His Son be greater than the witnesses of men in the earth in verse 9 when by His words, John 8:17, it takes two witnesses to make a witness true.

So it is very likely that we need His wisdom to see what is not lining up with scriptures that the wayward has wrested from by changing the message in 1 Corinthians 14:2,4,& 28 as if tongues can edify self when in that chapter, Paul is instructing believers that speak in tongues as manifested by the Holy Spirit, for the believers to pray that someone else will interpret so that the tongue speaker can understand that tongue and that tongue would be fruitful to himself.

And so 1 Corinthians 14:4 is an outright lie saying that tongues can edify self when it needs interpretation for that tongue speaker to benefit from it.

Those that wrest the scriptures did not cover their tracks very well when Paul set the precedent in 1 Corinthians 12:7,19-21 that none of the gifts are for private use but for the profit of the assembly.

But they do not discern with Jesus Christ and so it is no wonder why many are not hearing the word of God now for why they are going astray,

Amos 8:11 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord God, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the Lord:

12 And they shall wander from sea to sea, and from the north even to the east, they shall run to and fro to seek the word of the Lord, and shall not find it.

13 In that day shall the fair virgins and young men faint for thirst.

They go after other signs besides the apostate calling of seeking the baptism of the Holy Ghost with evidence of tongues as they do receive the "holy Spirit" for other signs too like holy laughter... slain in the spirit.. being drunk in the spirit... all which is not of God as God is not the author of confusion in any churches of the saints and so not behind tongues for private use as gibberish nonsense which is the epitome of confusion.

You're jumping around a lot there. Are we discussing 1 Corinthians 14:2 or not? Are we sticking to that specific text and the specified topic of tongues, or not? If so then stop bringing up irrelevant texts and irrelevant changes of topic.

So.. yeah.. the KJV is not a perfect Bible but I got Jesus Christ to help me discern the meat of His words to know where those that wrested scripture did it at since scripture cannot go against scripture.

I don't mean any offense but given the frequent shifts of both scripture and subject it does not read like you've discerned correctly. Discernment knows how to stay on topic. Discernment knows how to exegete scripture well, and not be beholding to extra-canonical doctrine(s). Discernment knows the difference between speaking in tongues and opened tombs.

 

[ChristB4us]

God is the one ultimately responsible for His word. God has seen fit to provide men and women who translate His word as He sees fit for His purpose. He even allows disobedience and heretics.

Jesus had shared this waning from the Father;

John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him. 24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.
John 15:20 Remember the word that I said unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you; if they have kept my saying, they will keep yours also.
Peter testified that believers that err were wresting the scriptures and even Paul's words back then.
2 Peter 3:15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; 16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. 17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.

??????

Do you mean to say the resurrection has occurred and there will be no other? Matthew 27:52-53 may be an addition to scripture but neither it nor any of the other texts you cited state the resurrection of anyone but Jesus had already occurred and there will be no other resurrection. I'm not sure where you got that idea.

I am referring to what Paul testified as a false teaching below.

2 Timothy 2:18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.

So Matthew 27:52-53 has to be that which was wrested scripture as I can see it clearly that it was inserted for why those 2 verses are out of place.

Matthew 27:50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost. 51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;

52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, 53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

54 Now when the centurion, and they that were with him, watching Jesus, saw the earthquake, and those things that were done, they feared greatly, saying, Truly this was the Son of God.

There is no way the centurion watching Jesus at the cross, saw verses 52-53 for why it has to be that false teaching that was inserted in there that was causing many to have their faith overthrown thinking the resurrection was past already. Verses 52-53 does not belong in scripture.

You're jumping around a lot there. Are we discussing 1 Corinthians 14:2 or not? Are we sticking to that specific text and the specified topic of tongues, or not? If so then stop bringing up irrelevant texts and irrelevant changes of topic.

I don't mean any offense but given the frequent shifts of both scripture and subject it does not read like you've discerned correctly. Discernment knows how to stay on topic. Discernment knows how to exegete scripture well, and not be beholding to extra-canonical doctrine(s). Discernment knows the difference between speaking in tongues and opened tombs.

Just sharing that I do not believe the KJV is perfect and what I am seeing as falsehood that those that wrested scriptures had snuck in.

In relation to tongues for private use per 1 Corinthians 14:2 & 4 & 28 we see Paul refuting that the resurrection was past already, and how he was exhorting scripture for our edification and I see him shunning tongues for private use for that "self edification".

2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. 16 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.
So when I read 1 Corinthians 14:2,4,& 28 I see the Greek words for the little words in English but there are not there for all other little words in English. Plus, I believe 1 Corinthians 14:4 is an outright lie & inserted in scripture when tongues cannot edify the tongue speaker by itself when he needs an interpreter so he may understand it for that tongue to be fruitful to himself as a tongue speaker.
1 Corinthians 14:4 He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.

Anyway, it is no wonder why Paul was exhorting believer to go to the scripture for their edification in 2 Timothy 2:15 and to shun tongues for private use for self edification as he testified of it as leading to more ungodliness in 2 Timothy 2:16.

Hopefully, the Lord helped me to be better in sharing my knowledge and understanding with you today, but even then, He has to help you receive the truth in the KJV that I see in the scriptures since scriptures cannot go against scriptures.

 

[Josheb]

Jesus had shared this waning from the Father;

John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him. 24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.
John 15:20 Remember the word that I said unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you; if they have kept my saying, they will keep yours also.
Peter testified that believers that err were wresting the scriptures and even Paul's words back then.
2 Peter 3:15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; 16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. 17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.


I am referring to what Paul testified as a false teaching below.

2 Timothy 2:18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.

So Matthew 27:52-53 has to be that which was wrested scripture as I can see it clearly that it was inserted for why those 2 verses are out of place.

Matthew 27:50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost. 51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;

52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, 53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

54 Now when the centurion, and they that were with him, watching Jesus, saw the earthquake, and those things that were done, they feared greatly, saying, Truly this was the Son of God.

There is no way the centurion watching Jesus at the cross, saw verses 52-53 for why it has to be that false teaching that was inserted in there that was causing many to have their faith overthrown thinking the resurrection was past already. Verses 52-53 does not belong in scripture.


Just sharing that I do not believe the KJV is perfect and what I am seeing as falsehood that those that wrested scriptures had snuck in.

In relation to tongues for private use per 1 Corinthians 14:2 & 4 & 28 we see Paul refuting that the resurrection was past already, and how he was exhorting scripture for our edification and I see him shunning tongues for private use for that "self edification".

2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. 16 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.
So when I read 1 Corinthians 14:2,4,& 28 I see the Greek words for the little words in English but there are not there for all other little words in English. Plus, I believe 1 Corinthians 14:4 is an outright lie & inserted in scripture when tongues cannot edify the tongue speaker by itself when he needs an interpreter so he may understand it for that tongue to be fruitful to himself as a tongue speaker.
1 Corinthians 14:4 He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.

Anyway, it is no wonder why Paul was exhorting believer to go to the scripture for their edification in 2 Timothy 2:15 and to shun tongues for private use for self edification as he testified of it as leading to more ungodliness in 2 Timothy 2:16.

Hopefully, the Lord helped me to be better in sharing my knowledge and understanding with you today, but even then, He has to help you receive the truth in the KJV that I see in the scriptures since scriptures cannot go against scriptures.

The posts continue to digress and complicate or obscure the original point of discussion. How about you gather your thoughts, re-read this op, and then let me know what the point is. What is your specific point of commentary or inquiry to be discussed?

 

[ChristB4us]

Let me clarify because Heiser's teaching is easily reconciled with whole scripture. God made the earth, and then He formed it. The earth He originally made was formless and void. A lot is being said there, especially once it's realized the Hebrew "bohu" eventually becomes connotative with loss, fallen, desolation and wilderness. One of the larger themes of the creation account it not simply God creating, or "making" a bunch of stuff, but His ordering it. He brought things into existence and ordered the existence's existence, not just for a "moment" but in time and space.

Earth did not exist on day one. Time as in "the beginning" was created that first day with its evening and morning that first day by the light that was created.

God started to create the earth by creating gravity ( that firmament that divides the water ) to divide the water thus winding up with a water planet ( one firmament ) and the upper atmosphere ( the other firmament ).

But note how God did not say it was good that 2nd day? That is because He was not done creating the earth until day 3 when He laid down the foundations of the earth Job 38:4 which should dispel the false notion that earth was devastated and under water.

You cannot have God resting on the 7th day from all His creation if we continue with that erroneous narrative of believing God created the heavens and the earth and time passed before actual day one for then that would not be the truth for Him resting on that 7th day from all his creation.

Genesis 2:1Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them. 2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made. 3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

 

[ChristB4us]

1 Corinthians 14:2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.

28 But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.

Textus Receptus Greek Text King James Bible With Strongs Dictionary

If anyone can explain from the link provided what Greek word(s) they translated "unto" in verse 2 & "to" in verse 28, I would appreciate it.

I understand now that 1 Corinthians 14:2,4,& 28 is a lie that was generated by those that had wrest the scriptures back in eter days.

2 Peter 3:15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; 16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. 17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.

Thanks to the Lord Jesus Christ, I was able to discern the lies of 1 Corinthians 14:2, 4, & 28 and also Matthew 27:52-53 because of Paul needing to correct those using tongues for self edification rather than going to the scriptures per 2 Timothy 2:15-16 and that false teaching that the Old Testament saints had already resurrected per 2 Timothy 2:18.

So where did they wrested with Paul’s words? In 2 Timothy 2nd chapter, I find one account of wresting with Paul’s words as well as one account where they had wrested with other scriptures.

2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

16 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.

Paul had to exhort believers to study the written scripture to rebuke “tongue for private users” as they were thinking they were being self edified.

But before we go on, how can we prove with the Lord’s help which has been wrested scripture and which is not?

1 John 2:20 But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things.

21 I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth.

Since scripture cannot go against scripture, and with the Lord’s help to see that, is how we can know the truth in His words. This method was used for judging the “lost books” of the Bible, along with the Apocrypha, as not scripture because they were running against the accepted scripture, the 66 books in the Bible.

With that in mind, we can with His help spot the lie.

In 1 Corinthians 14:2, 4, & 28, the lie is exposed.

1 Corinthians 14:2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.

4 He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.

28 But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.

Verses 20–21 exposes that tongues are not for the Holy Spirit to speak back to God but for God to speak unto the people.

1 Corinthians 14:20 Brethren, be not children in understanding: howbeit in malice be ye children, but in understanding be men.

21 In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord.

John 16:13 in ALL BIBLE VERSIONS testify that the Holy Spirit cannot speak from Himself but speaks ONLY what He hears.

Now for verse 4 as being a big fat lie, Paul in that same chapter is instructing those who speak in tongues as manifested by the Holy Spirit, were to pray that someone may interpret that tongue so that the tongue speaker may understand it for that tongue to be fruitful to himself.

Now if he can be self edified, why pray for that interpretation in the assembly? How can it be unfruitful to himself unless he is not being self edified by that tongue as claimed in verse 4?

Paul sets the precedent for the gifts of the spirit in 1 Corinthians chapter 12 as being for the profit of the body of believers, and not for private use at all.

1 Corinthians 12:4 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit….

7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal….

19 And if they were all one member, where were the body?

20 But now are they many members, yet but one body.

21 And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you.

Ever notice how tongue for private users will say all other gifts of the Spirit is for the assembly but not for tongues? What they are saying is the same thing in verse 21 where they are telling other members of the body of Christ that they have no need of interpretation. That is a bunch of baloney done in ignorance.

It is proof that they do not have God’s gift of tongues at all for why they should not assume it is for private use no matter how real it is to them.

1 Timothy 4:1Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;

Isaiah 8:19 And when they shall say unto you, Seek unto them that have familiar spirits, and unto wizards that peep, and that mutter: should not a people seek unto their God? for the living to the dead?

Patience is required as only God can recover them from this snare as that tongue was gained by that apostate calling of seeking to receive that baptism with the Holy Ghost with evidence of tongues, thereby committing spiritual adultery.

Matthew 12:38 Then certain of the scribes and of the Pharisees answered, saying, Master, we would see a sign from thee.

39 But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas:

40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

2 Timothy 2;24 And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient,

25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;

26 And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

To be continued for exposing the lie of Matthew 27:52-53

 

[Josheb]

Earth did not exist on day one.

Yep

Time as in "the beginning" was created that first day with its evening and morning that first day by the light that was created.

Yep, but a day was not measured by one rotation of the earth relevant to the sun (as we now measure a day).

God started to create the earth by creating gravity ( that firmament that divides the water ) to divide the water thus winding up with a water planet ( one firmament ) and the upper atmosphere ( the other firmament ).

That is one possibility.

But note how God did not say it was good that 2nd day?

Irrelevant. He later said everything He'd made was very good.

That is because He was not done creating the earth until day 3 when He laid down the foundations of the earth Job 38:4 which should dispel the false notion that earth was devastated and under water.

Unsupported assumption. Goodness has nothing to do with what was created when and any implication a good God created something not good must be avoided as inconsistent with God's nature.

You cannot have God resting on the 7th day from all His creation if we continue with that erroneous narrative of believing God created the heavens and the earth and time passed before actual day one for then that would not be the truth for Him resting on that 7th day from all his creation.

I'm inclined to agree, so that needs to be said to someone who holds that view.

 

[ChristB4us]

Continued...

By His help, I have found the other account in 2 Timothy 2:18 for how they had wrested other scriptures that Paul was correcting.

2 Timothy 2:18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.

We go to Matthew 27:45–54 in order to see the added inserted wrested scriptures of verses 52–53,

Matthew 27:45 Now from the sixth hour there was darkness over all the land unto the ninth hour.

46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

47 Some of them that stood there, when they heard that, said, This man calleth for Elias.

48 And straightway one of them ran, and took a spunge, and filled it with vinegar, and put it on a reed, and gave him to drink.

49 The rest said, Let be, let us see whether Elias will come to save him.

50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.

51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;

52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,

53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

54 Now when the centurion, and they that were with him, watching Jesus, saw the earthquake, and those things that were done, they feared greatly, saying, Truly this was the Son of God.

Verses 52 & 53 is out of order since it testified that this resurrection of Old Testament saints had occurred after His resurrection and so the centurion did not witnessed that in verse 54 as he was still seeing Jesus on the cross.

None of the other 3 gospels shares that testimony. If there were many that had seen that resurrection, why would His disciples doubt His? After such an event like that, why has not all of Israel believed in Jesus Christ then? Why didn’t anyone make the resurrected David, king again? Or Solomon? Or Abraham? Or Moses? Therefore the only resurrection that matters is the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Scriptures cannot go against scriptures and so with the Lord’s help, we can spot where wayward believers have omitted scriptures and even wrested the scriptures in adding lies to it.