The Process of Creation and Redemption

[Josheb]

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The Process of Creation and Redemption​

?????

 

[Jarhead4Jesus]

Thanks, but that is not an answer to the questions asked. I did not ask if you'd heard the "Darby argument" before. I asked if you know Dispensationalism was invented in the 19th century. I am trying to ask some very simple and basic questions in hopes of getting some equally simple and basic answers so that you and I understand one another.

• Are you also aware Dispensational Premillennialism was literally invented in the 19th century?
• Are you also aware Dispensational Premillennialism is an eschatological position that is not held by most of Christendom?

The short answer to that question relative to the specified subject of this op is that DPism teaches bad soteriology.

The fuller, lengthier, more substantive answer to that question will take multiple posts that are very lengthy. Entire books have been written about the problems with Dispensational Premillennialism. I have written six separate ops on some of the many, many, many, many, many problems with Dispensational Premillennialism HERE, HERE, HERE, HERE, HERE, and HERE. Most DPers have avoided those ops like they were a plague. I invite you to read them and respond as you feel led. Do it there so we do not muck up this op. We can discuss the problem(s) cited in each op in the corresponding thread.

Write now we're supposed to be discussing "the process of creation and redemption," and doing so based on the graphics you have provided in support of your Dispensational Premillennialist viewpoint. I will, therefore, limit my answer to your question to that context, and I am going to answer your question as a show of goodwill and good faith even though I did not receive an answer to the questions I asked.

Fundamentally, Dispensational Premillennialism (DPism) is irreconcilable with historic orthodox Christianity. If Dpism is true and correct then two millennia of Christian thought, doctrine, and practice is not true or correct. This presents an enormous paradox because if Christianity has not been correct for the last 2000 years..... how then can Dispensational Premillennialism be called Christian?

More specific to this op's topic of creation and redemption..... Dispensationalism teaches two different means of redemption and salvation..... and the leaders within DPism are not honest about that fact. Dispensationalists deny what I just said, and they write defenses for their beliefs in an effort to prove otherwise but they lie when they do so. One of THE most basic tenets in DPism is the premise of two peoples. Dispensational Premillennialism teaches God has two peoples, not one, the Jews of Israel and the Christians of the Church, and each has a separate purpose. One group of people, Israel or the Jews, will have to go through a series of events Dispensationalism teaches they must go through. The nation of Israel must be restored. The nation must regain all its original land originally promised to them by God. They must re-establish the Levitical priesthood, and re-institute animal sacrifices. They must also rebuild the temple. All of these events are necessarily tied (in DPism) to the return of Jesus, the establishment of his earthly kingdom, and the bringing of Israel to salvation in Christ.

The problem is that those are all works!

Dispensational Premillennialism, therefore, teaches two paths to redemption and salvation, one path for Israel and another for the Church. In other words, DPists do believe in a salvation by grace through faith soteriology BUT they also believe in a salvation by grace+works through faith for the Jew soteriology.

This is apparent to anyone who actually studies Dispensational Premillennialist teachings. Even more apparent when those teachings are compared to scripture with a Spirit-led understanding of God's word. You say that is what you base your understanding upon. I am relying on that to be true.

No orthodox Christian in the entire history of Christianity has ever believed any of those DPists teachings. This chart HERE was made by a Dispensational Premillennialist. Look at it. Look at the second to last row. The chart shows only DPism thinks modern Israel is relevant to Christian eschatology. No one but DPism teaches that! If what Dispensationalism teaches is true then everything Christians have been believing contrary to DPism has been a lie. Both cannot be true at the same time. Redemption and salvation cannot be by grace alone and also by works.

And the real rub is that the leaders of DPism are not honest about this. They will say they believe in salvation by grace through faith (and many of them are soteriological monergists in that regard) but what they do not do is explain how building a temple is not works, or why it is the temple must be built first. They skip over that problem is silence. It is called a lie of omission.

Despite the length of what I just said, much, much more could said about this problem inherent in DPism. There is, however, no need for defensiveness. I and most of the other non-DPers here in this forum used to be Dispensational Premillennialists. I've read much of what Thomas Ice has written. I've read Darby, Scofield, Chafer, Ryre, Walvoord, Ice, Vlach, Watson and many others. I got so frustrated when I was first confronted with the problems inherent in DPism that I work vociferously to prove the critics wrong. Years of study brought me to reality: DPism is hugely inconsistent within itself AND with God's word, and it can be maintained only by an eisegetic reading of scripture.

But that is too much information to cover in a single post, so I tried asking you a few very simple, basic questions and the conversation broke down within three inquiries. I do not believe for a second that came from the Holy Spirit. God wants us both to have answers to these questions and provide an explanation for what we believe when asked.

I have answered your question. Will you now answer mine?

• Are you also aware Dispensational Premillennialism was literally invented in the 19th century?
• Are you also aware Dispensational Premillennialism is an eschatological position that is not held by most of Christendom?

I'll ask them one or two at a time, keep them simple and build from their based on your answers. I will also provide parity. You ask me one or two basic (op-relevant) questions and I will gladly answer them.

My answer to both questions: If you say that DP was invented in the 19th century, and that most of Christendom hasn't held to it, then so be it. I'll take your word for it. However, the definition and explanations that you've given above for DP don't represent what I believe from having read scripture. I readily admit, I haven't bothered to read what others have written about the history of Christianity. My only concern is the scriptures and gaining understanding from there. Commentaries are like pre-chewed food. No thanks, I'll go to the Bible and seek the Lord myself.

Here are some simple truths from scripture.

Salvation has only ever been by God's grace, through faith in the Lord. That was the case in the days of Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses, Gideon, David, Daniel, John the Baptist, Peter and Paul; And it's still the case for you, me and the Tribulation saints.

The Bible does teach that the Jews will return to the land, rebuild the temple and offer sacrifices again. But none of that will redeem them to God. According to Jesus, the final remnant of the Jews will only be saved at the very end of the Tribulation when they, 'acknowledge their offense, and seek my face:' (Hosea 5:15).

I don't know if that throws me in or out of the DP camp, but, I'm not bound by labels.

Here is my question:
What specific piece of the image that I attached, made you think that it had anything to do with the rapture, or dispensationalism of any kind?

 

[Jarhead4Jesus]

Perhaps I missed it, but would you mind telling me where the first two graphics you posted (HERE and HERE) mention any rapture?

Because if those attachments do not mention any rapture..... then why have you let @CrowCross sabotage your op and drag you off topic with his injection of the rapture into this thread? Be careful. Many of your Dispensationalist kinsmen will gladly hijack your op if you let them. Just because they share your eschatology does not mean they will cooperate or collaborate with you and this op. There are literally dozens of threads in this board where one DPer dragged another DPer off his or her own op. Do you intend to discuss the process of creation and redemption relevant to those attachments or not? If so then don't give anyone else fodder for tangents.

Just trying to help .

I posted the breadcrumbs that lead to the requested files, since the site was mis-identified as a personal directory. Each file is different, but they all contain scriptural information concerning the most likely timing for the rapture. Here they are again...

7049 Biblical Timeline Research > Biblical Timelines > Biblical Timeline - Linear
7049 Biblical Timeline Research > Biblical Timelines > Modern State of Israel Timeline - Monthly
7049 Biblical Timeline Research > Articles > The Fall Feasts and the Return of Christ

 

[Josheb]

My answer to both questions: If you say that DP was invented in the 19th century, and that most of Christendom hasn't held to it, then so be it. I'll take your word for it.

Thank you.

However, the definition and explanations that you've given above for DP don't represent what I believe from having read scripture.

Then perhaps you are not a Dispensational Premillennialist. If that is the case then I'll post accordingly but we'll need to find out if that is actually the case because A LOT of DPers deny what I described because they see what DPism teaches is wrong. In other words, the self-identify as Dispensatinal Premillennialists but are horrified to find out the truth about DPism. If that is the case then yuou'll find yourself in good company in this forum because many of us have had that exact same experience. We were earnest dispies who left DPism because we eventually discovered it is a seriously flawed theology.

I readily admit, I haven't bothered to read what others have written about the history of Christianity. My only concern is the scriptures and gaining understanding from there. Commentaries are like pre-chewed food. No thanks, I'll go to the Bible and seek the Lord myself.

Which is why you will not find me quoting second-hand and third-hand sources to you. I will cite scripture and scripture read as written, exegetically examined. You will find Dispensational Premillennialism claims to practice a given hermeneutic (I'll cover the details of that method later as need arises) but they do not do so with very much consistency. They pick and choose the scriptures they emphasize and neglect.

However, you've introduced an interesting thing because unless these graphics and that biblicaltimelineresearch website is your doing then you have, in fact, believed someone else's "pre-chewed food," and are attempting to teach it to others.

For now,

According to Post 17, you subscribe to Dispensational Premillennialism BUT, according to Post 42, you may not adhere to all of DPism. You also accept, based on my word, that DPism was literally invented in the 19th century and it is not and eschatology held by the majority of Christianity historically or in modernity. Do I have that correct?
.

Here are some simple truths from scripture.

Salvation has only ever been by God's grace, through faith in the Lord. That was the case in the days of Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses, Gideon, David, Daniel, John the Baptist, Peter and Paul; And it's still the case for you, me and the Tribulation saints.

That is true.

The Bible does teach that the Jews will return to the land, rebuild the temple and offer sacrifices again. But none of that will redeem them to God. According to Jesus, the final remnant of the Jews will only be saved at the very end of the Tribulation when they, 'acknowledge their offense, and seek my face:' (Hosea 5:15).

That is not true. The Bible does not teach the Jews will return to the land, build a temple, or begin sacrifices again. Those are Dispensational Premillennialism's "pre-chewed food." No one else in Christianity teaches those things. What you are believing is DPism, NOT scripture.

So here's my next question: Can you provide me with a single verse from anywhere in the Bible that explicitly states another temple will be built in this century?

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I don't know if that throws me in or out of the DP camp, but, I'm not bound by labels.

It puts you in the DP camp.

• Historic Premillennialists, as the chart I provided shows, do not believe modern Israel is germane to Christian eschatology.
• (Classic) Amillennialists do not believe modern Israel is germane to Christian eschatology.
• Postmillennialists do not believe modern Israel is germane to Christian eschatology.
• Idealists do not believe modern Israel is germane to Christian eschatology (although some might consider Israel as a player in the ongoing battle between good and evil).

Only DPism teaches that point of view. Now I want to be clear here because a bunch of people believing something does not necessarily make it true (or false) so I am NOT making an argument ad populum (appeal to the majority). Just because four-fifths of Christian eschatologies deny the relevance of Israel does not mean that position is true. The reason it's not true is because it is not what the Bible teaches and for two thousand years the Christian thought, doctrine, and practice has been Israel is irrelevant to Christian eschatology. That is what the Bible teaches and that is what Christianity has historically taught for 2000 years and that is what has been orthodoxy for two thousand years. It was not until the 19th century that any group within Christendom believed otherwise.

The reason this is important is because these beliefs that DPism teaches are wholly irreconcilable with historic orthodox Christianity. You're probably going to get tired of me posting that but there are so many places DPism screws up that I am going to have plenty of opportunity. Simply put, either modern Israel is germane, or it is not germane. Both cannot be simultaneously true. In other word, either DPism is correct and ALL of Christianity prior to and subsequent to the 19th century is wrong. DPism is correct and Christianity aside from DPism is wrong. That is the necessary, inevitable, inescapable logical conclusion of DPism's teaching about Israel.

I'll bet they did not tell you that as you learned Dispensational Premillennialism.

Do you think I am the only one who understands that? Did I invent that all on my own? All you former Dispeis can help me out: am I alone in realizing this inevitable contradiction between what DPism teaches and what everyone else in Christendom believes? Those of you who are lurking and choose to reply, please keep it short and sweet for the sake of the thread. Just say, "Yep, DPism contradicts too much stuff in in scripture and Christianity and no one told me that while I was a Dispy." If toomuch is said then the trolls will have a field day making tangents of things that aren't relevant to this op.

Which brings me back to this op. The timeline in that biblical timeline research website says this is the year 6025 and the tribulation will occur in the year 6031. That means the tribulation will occur in six years. I'm curious whether or not you truly believe that and whether you live your life in a manner that actually reflects that timeline but perhaps we can discuss that later. Dispensational Premillennialists the other modern futurists have been doing this since the 19th century. Dpists are constantly telling everyone the tribulation, the rapture, or the return of Jesus is going to happen any day now. Most have stopped pinning it down to a specific day, month or year, but they're still prognosticating one of those events is going to happen soon. Our fellow poster @CrowCross has written multiple ops making claims like that. I've asked when, specifically, those events will occur and gotten a variety of answers from him - and I have to ask and ask and ask repeatedly to get anything remotely resembling an intelligent answer to the question asked. It's so bad I used his posts as examples of bad teaching in this op HERE. You should read that thread to better understand how difficult it is to get a DPer to address his/her own beliefs. You are, commendably, doing a much better job, and I mean that sincerely. The timeline you've provided specifies a year.

So here's my second question:

Are you aware that Dispensational Premillennialists have been making predictions about the tribulation, rapture, and return of Jesus since the early- to mid-180os and not a single one of them has ever been correct?

• Can you provide me with a single verse from anywhere in the Bible that explicitly states another temple will be built in this century?
• Are you aware two hundred years' worth of DPists' predictions have all been incorrect? Are you aware DPism has a 100% fail rate when it comes to end-times predictions?

Those are the two questions your last post prompts me to ask. They are both relevant to this op's subject regarding the process of creation and redemption, relevant to the attachments you've provided, and relevant to your comment about the land, temple, sacrifices, and tribulation (I am working from what you've provided). Let me clarify the first question. I am NOT asking for a verse you read to say another temple will be built in our future. I am asking for a verse that actually, explicitly states another temple will be built. I am not asking for an inference. I am asking for an actual explicit statement. If you've got one, then please post it. If not then simply say something like, "No, there is no verse explicitly stating another temple will be built." I promise not to rag on you for an honest and forthcoming answer.

 

[Josheb]

.

Here is my question:
What specific piece of the image that I attached, made you think that it had anything to do with the rapture, or dispensationalism of any kind?

The way the timeline uses Judaism, the OT, and its use of "the time of the Gentiles," as well as its placing of the rapture, the tribulation and the millennial kingdom, and the fact the website is Dispensationally Premillennial. That website is not new to me but I read trough every single page of that website since it was posted Since that website was posted in Post 3. It was worth the read; lots of interesting stuff, but a lot of mistakes. I wonder if the work is your own and if it was reviewed and tested by others before it was posted. Some of the mistakes are pretty basic and anyone with a background in hermeneutics (whether Dispy or not) could have helped correct them. It's not necessary at this time to address any one particular but if you hand inhere with me we'll likely get to a few of them.


For now,

• Can you provide me with a single verse from anywhere in the Bible that explicitly states another temple will be built in this century?
• Are you aware two hundred years' worth of DPists' predictions have all been incorrect? Are you aware DPism has a 100% fail rate when it comes to end-times predictions?

I again want to preemptively express my appreciation for your collaboration answering the questions asked in a succinct manner. Let me also note something for future use. As we progress in this conversation you may start thinking you can anticipate or even predict what I will say next. Try to resist that urge because it begets bias. Believing we "know" what others are thinking binds our own thinking. I'll take your questions as they come and ask you to do the same.

I will also work to make my posts shorter as we proceed .

 

[Jarhead4Jesus]

However, you've introduced an interesting thing because unless these graphics and that biblicaltimelineresearch website is your doing then you have, in fact, believed someone else's "pre-chewed food," and are attempting to teach it to others.

The graphics, charts and diagrams, etc... represent my understanding of scripture as it (scripture) is laid out plainly with events and numbers.

The Bible does teach that the Jews will return to the land, rebuild the temple and offer sacrifices again. But none of that will redeem them to God. According to Jesus, the final remnant of the Jews will only be saved at the very end of the Tribulation when they, 'acknowledge their offense, and seek my face:' (Hosea 5:15).

That is not true. The Bible does not teach the Jews will return to the land, build a temple, or begin sacrifices again. Those are Dispensational Premillennialism's "pre-chewed food." No one else in Christianity teaches those things. What you are believing is DPism, NOT scripture.

'No one else in Christianity teaches those things.' I'll be kind and suppose that you and I define 'Christianity' differently. Besides, I already have a number of beliefs where traditional Christianity has taught otherwise.

So here's my next question: Can you provide me with a single verse from anywhere in the Bible that explicitly states another temple will be built in this century?

And here is the obvious response: Can you provide me with a SINGLE VERSE from anywhere in the Bible that EXPLICITILY STATES that another temple will NOT be built in this century?

Those kinds of questions are no different than when an Islamist asks for a verse where Jesus explicitly says, 'I am God' and then refuses to take anything else.

I'll bet they did not tell you that as you learned Dispensational Premillennialism.

As I said before, my beliefs are based on scripture.

So here's my second question:

Are you aware that Dispensational Premillennialists have been making predictions about the tribulation, rapture, and return of Jesus since the early- to mid-180os and not a single one of them has ever been correct?

I am well aware of such things. And I could name a few that are still doing it today, even after previous (recent) attempts that failed.

That's why the 7049 Biblical Timeline Research site is laden with scripture. Our desire is to know what scripture says concerning the time-based information that the Bible does provide. The posted timelines an other charts and diagrams are the fruit of that labor. And there's a whole lot more that has not yet made it to publishing.

Still, we're not responsible for the beliefs of others. Thankfully, the righteousness of Christ is imparted by God's grace through faith in the Lord Jesus, not via some knowledge test presented at the pearly gates. His grace is sufficient.

• Can you provide me with a single verse from anywhere in the Bible that explicitly states another temple will be built in this century?
• Are you aware two hundred years' worth of DPists' predictions have all been incorrect? Are you aware DPism has a 100% fail rate when it comes to end-times predictions?

Those are the two questions your last post prompts me to ask. They are both relevant to this op's subject regarding the process of creation and redemption, relevant to the attachments you've provided, and relevant to your comment about the land, temple, sacrifices, and tribulation (I am working from what you've provided). Let me clarify the first question. I am NOT asking for a verse you read to say another temple will be built in our future. I am asking for a verse that actually, explicitly states another temple will be built. I am not asking for an inference. I am asking for an actual explicit statement. If you've got one, then please post it. If not then simply say something like, "No, there is no verse explicitly stating another temple will be built." I promise not to rag on you for an honest and forthcoming answer.

My response to this was given near the top of this same reply.

However, in order to offer something, I'll recommend the article, 'Reconsidering Daniel 12:6-7' which is posted in the 'Articles' page of the site. That article, coupled with the posted biblical timeline itself, represents the best argument for why we should expect the second coming of Christ in our lifetime.

 

[Jarhead4Jesus]

Here is my question:
What specific piece of the image that I attached, made you think that it had anything to do with the rapture, or dispensationalism of any kind?

The way the timeline uses Judaism, the OT, and its use of "the time of the Gentiles," as well as its placing of the rapture, the tribulation and the millennial kingdom, and the fact the website is Dispensationally Premillennial. That website is not new to me but I read trough every single page of that website since it was posted Since that website was posted in Post 3. It was worth the read; lots of interesting stuff, but a lot of mistakes. I wonder if the work is your own and if it was reviewed and tested by others before it was posted. Some of the mistakes are pretty basic and anyone with a background in hermeneutics (whether Dispy or not) could have helped correct them. It's not necessary at this time to address any one particular but if you hand inhere with me we'll likely get to a few of them.

Well, that explains the confusion. I was referring to the original image that was attached to this post (the one with the 'input' and 'output' arrows). Your most recent response (above) is clearly related to the 'Timeline Backbone' file that I attached more recently. My bad.

Happy to hear that you've read from the site. Would love to ask for your thoughts on a number of other things, but this post is off topic enough as it is. LOL

 

[CrowCross]

That is not true. The Bible does not teach the Jews will return to the land, build a temple, or begin sacrifices again.

I pretty much disagree with that.

Now, to your point there isn't a chapter on rebuilding the temple...but it does mention a temple in the future.
The Jews even have the red heifers ready to be sacrificed to cleanse the temple grounds.
The furniture is built and the priest have already been identified and trained.
I have also heard they have the cornerstone cut and ready to go.

 

[Josheb]

The graphics, charts and diagrams, etc... represent my understanding of scripture as it (scripture) is laid out plainly with events and numbers.

Yes, everyone can see that. Let me point out something important because

That is not true. The Bible does not teach the Jews will return to the land, build a temple, or begin sacrifices again.

I think you have your html tags in disarray. You quoted yourself saying, "The Bible does teach that the Jews will return to the land, rebuild the temple and offer sacrifices again," and then stated the exact opposite.

Those are Dispensational Premillennialism's "pre-chewed food." No one else in Christianity teaches those things. What you are believing is DPism, NOT scripture.

'No one else in Christianity teaches those things.' I'll be kind and suppose that you and I define 'Christianity' differently. Besides, I already have a number of beliefs where traditional Christianity has taught otherwise.

Well.... you're not being kind (or anything else positive). The fact is Dispensational Premillinnialism is the only eschatological point of view in which these positions are taught. You claimed to rely on scripture and the Holy Spirit but post after post shows youre relying on Dispensational Premillennialism, not scripture or the HS. Big huge difference. Appeals to traditionalism fail because they're irrational. No one is talking about "traditional Christianity."

My response to this was given near the top of this same reply.

However, in order to offer something, I'll recommend the article, 'Reconsidering Daniel 12:6-7' which is posted in the 'Articles' page of the site. That article, coupled with the posted biblical timeline itself, represents the best argument for why we should expect the second coming of Christ in our lifetime.

Thanks, but that does not answer the questions asked. There is not a single verse quoted that explicitly states another temple will be built in our future in any of the graphics. Neither do any of these graphics or any of these posts acknowledge the completely uniform history of Dispensational Premillennialists' abject failure when making predictions. If I understand these graphics correctly and your intent thereof, you'd like us to believe the tribulation and the return of Jesus will occur in six years. In six years we will all know whether or not these posts are true and correct.

Given the uniform history of DPers, every predictive word you've posted will prove untrue.

Do you realize this is the group of people with whom you've willfully chosen to associate? That is the point of my inquiry! You're likely to be just one more false prognosticator in a long, long, long, long line of false prognosticators created by Dispensational Premillennialism. If the same reality your predecessors demonstrated is true of you then in six years you will know you are a false teacher (eschatologically speaking). Let him who can receive it do so . The question then becomes to what repentance and accountability will you submit? Or will you ignore the wrongdoing and repeat the sin?

These questions I am asking are very important. Please do not dismiss or ignore them.

• Can you provide me with a single verse from anywhere in the Bible that explicitly states another temple will be built in this century?
• Are you aware two hundred years' worth of DPists' predictions have all been incorrect? Are you aware DPism has a 100% fail rate when it comes to end-times predictions?

.

 

[Josheb]

I pretty much disagree with that.

He got his html tags (quote boxes) mixed up. Those are my words, not his.

 

[Jarhead4Jesus]

Now, to your point there isn't a chapter on rebuilding the temple...but it does mention a temple in the future.
The Jews even have the red heifers ready to be sacrificed to cleanse the temple grounds.
The furniture is built and the priest have already been identified and trained.
I have also heard they have the cornerstone cut and ready to go.

True. They're ready to go.

 

[Jarhead4Jesus]

I think you have your html tags in disarray. You quoted yourself saying, "The Bible does teach that the Jews will return to the land, rebuild the temple and offer sacrifices again," and then stated the exact opposite.

I was using the quotes from your reply. It looked good when I put it together, but apparently it didn't post that way.

Well.... you're not being kind (or anything else positive). The fact is Dispensational Premillinnialism is the only eschatological point of view in which these positions are taught. You claimed to rely on scripture and the Holy Spirit but post after post shows youre relying on Dispensational Premillennialism, not scripture or the HS. Big huge difference. Appeals to traditionalism fail because they're irrational. No one is talking about "traditional Christianity."

Thanks, but that does not answer the questions asked. There is not a single verse quoted that explicitly states another temple will be built in our future in any of the graphics. Neither do any of these graphics or any of these posts acknowledge the completely uniform history of Dispensational Premillennialists' abject failure when making predictions. If I understand these graphics correctly and your intent thereof, you'd like us to believe the tribulation and the return of Jesus will occur in six years. In six years we will all know whether or not these posts are true and correct.

No, that is not a correct explanation of the graphics. According to the timeline given (and reassembled) throughout scripture, the most likely time for the Tribulation to begin is in 6031 (in about 6 years). The most likely time for the second coming of Christ would be in 6038 (about 13 years from now). The most likely time for the Rapture of the church is in 6029 (roughly 4 years away).

I am not at all ashamed of making such claims considering they are based on a total view of scripture, rather than being calculated from one or two events (like just about every other prediction made).

Given the uniform history of DPers, every predictive word you've posted will prove untrue.

This claim seems to be based on your disbelief that the modern state of Israel has anything to do with God's timeline.
Question: Do you even believe that God has shared His timeline with us in scripture?

Do you realize this is the group of people with whom you've willfully chosen to associate? That is the point of my inquiry! You're likely to be just one more false prognosticator in a long, long, long, long line of false prognosticators created by Dispensational Premillennialism. If the same reality your predecessors demonstrated is true of you then in six years you will know you are a false teacher (eschatologically speaking). Let him who can receive it do so . The question then becomes to what repentance and accountability will you submit? Or will you ignore the wrongdoing and repeat the sin?

These questions I am asking are very important. Please do not dismiss or ignore them.

• Can you provide me with a single verse from anywhere in the Bible that explicitly states another temple will be built in this century?
• Are you aware two hundred years' worth of DPists' predictions have all been incorrect? Are you aware DPism has a 100% fail rate when it comes to end-times predictions?

As previously answered:
Can you provide me with a SINGLE VERSE from anywhere in the Bible that EXPLICITILY STATES that another temple will NOT be built in this century?

Those kinds of questions are no different than an Islamist asking for a verse where Jesus explicitly says, 'I am God' and then they refuse to accept any other use of words.
We will indeed know the truth of the matter within the next six years. If there is any error in the timeline, it is mine alone. Unlike all of those other people's predictions, since those posted at 7049 Biblical Timeline Research are based on a total view of scripture, they can only be right or wrong once. There is no room for adjustment. If the posted timeline is incorrect, then it's due to my lack of understanding.
God's word is truth.

 

[Josheb]

True. They're ready to go.

Will either of you be surprised if, after the heifers have been sacrificed, the ground cleansed, and the temple built, Jesus does not suddenly return?

 

[Josheb]

This claim seems to be based on your disbelief that the modern state of Israel has anything to do with God's timeline.

Part 1:

No, it's based on the fact Dispensational Premillennialists have been making predictions about a variety of events and not a single one of them have ever come true.

The restoration of Israel should be measured by scripture, not the modern newscast. The existence of a modern state calling itself "Israel" is not, in and of itself, proof of anything, much less restoration of covenant Israel and the fulfillment of the way Dispensationalists interpret scripture. Modern Israel meats few, if any, of the measures of covenant Israel and it was the Israel of God's covenant promises that was promised restoration. This is one more place where you and every other Dispensationalist (including all of us former dispies in this forum) have been lied to. They told you Israel was going to be restored and when the secular nation of Israel was invented it was called a fulfillment of prophecy when it is nothing of the sort. Perhaps when it has all its land, AND becomes a nation of priests as God promised He would make them AND understands and believes the promises made to Abraham AND Jesus (Gal 3) AND bunch more stuff recorded in scripture, then and only then it might be a fulfillment of restoration but that is NOT going to happen in the next six years.

So, if I were speaking as a Dispensationalist Premillennialist who's actually studied, accepted and is believing God's word, I'd have to say the timeline in those graphics is waaaaaaay off.

 

[Josheb]

Part 2:

Question: Do you even believe that God has shared His timeline with us in scripture?

Yes, at least some of it.

Anyone who pays attention to ALL of the temporal markers stated in scripture AND takes them exactly as stated can and will understand something of God's eschatological "timeline," but it will not be the timeline taught in Dispensational Premillennialism. Even if modern Israel is going to be a fulfillment of Old Testament eschatological prophecy...... that means DPists have gotten one out of a gazillion predictions correct. Even broken clock is correct twice a day. Nothing has been achieved by claiming one questionable prediction correct. More will be required to prove Dispensational Premillennialist prognosticators are not false teachers.

As previously answered:
Can you provide me with a SINGLE VERSE from anywhere in the Bible that EXPLICITILY STATES that another temple will NOT be built in this century?

Those kinds of questions are no different than an Islamist asking for a verse where Jesus explicitly says, 'I am God' and then they refuse to accept any other use of words.

That's a cop out and NOT an answer to the question asked. It is logically impossible to claim another temple will be built in our future and not be able to point to a single verse stating that premise. You might as well make a bunch of stuff up and claim it's scriptural. Oh wait. DPism already does that. My bad.

The honest, forthcoming answer is, "No." If some honest commentary was your inclination, then the honest answer is, "No, the belief in a future temple is entirely inferential; there is nothing in scripture explicitly stating another temple in our future will be built." If that had been your answer then I'd know you were honestly dealing with the scripture as written and not like our brother @CrowCross, who refuses to answer questions directly or in a timely manner. Remember: Very early on in this thread I commended you for your direct, honest and timely responses.

You just betrayed yourself.


So just answer the questions asked, when asked. I have done the same and I will continue to do so. The conversation moves when we do that. Obfuscation is not godly.

We will indeed know the truth of the matter within the next six years.

If that were true 1) we'd all agree to it, 2) you wouldn't have to work so hard to prove it, 3) you'd be able to answer any and all questions honestly, directly, and immediately when asked without obfuscation, eisegesis, or logical fallacy, and you wouldn't date set . Truth is not relative.

If there is any error in the timeline, it is mine alone.

Yep.

BUT..... you are a product of the Dispensational Premillennialism you've been taught. Among the many effects of learning the truth of scripture is you'll realize those you trusted to teach you well were either misguided themselves or actually lying. It has caused a crisis of faith for many a Dispy.* In pint of fact, since the inception of Dispensational Premillennialism a paradox has occurred in which - due to the apocalyptic preaching of modern futurism - hundreds of thousands of people have come to faith in Christ, BUT hundreds of thousands in thier ranks have also left the faith and many who might have believed did not simply because...... for 200 years Dispensational Premillennialists have been making predictions that never come true!!! When Bertrand Russel wrote his infamous book, "Why I am Not a Christian," he was influenced by modern futurism. Had he examined more historic, orthodox, mainstream eschatologies he'd have NEVER concluded Jesus and Paul were mistaken when they said he'd return, and he didn't. God will lay that blemish square at the feet of John Darby and the Dispensational Premillennialists and ask them to account for it.

You are having a difficult enough time answering a very simple question: Is there a single verse in the Bible that explicitly states another temple will be built in our future? No!

And had that been the answer I received we could then discuss what it means to hold a position that can be reached only by inference and why you do that. So here is my next question:

Given the fact there is no explicit verse, can the entirely inferential nature of the temple building belief in Dispensational Premillennialism be acknowledged?


.

Unlike all of those other people's predictions, since those posted at 7049 Biblical Timeline Research are based on a total view of scripture, they can only be right or wrong once. There is no room for adjustment. If the posted timeline is incorrect, then it's due to my lack of understanding.
God's word is truth.

None of that has yet to be proved and you're jumping ahead, asserting facts that are not yet in evidence. If you do not first establish a foundation then nothing you will ever believe, ever post, ever teach will ever have any merit. It will all be baseless, foundation-less. I told you from the very beginning: I am not interested in competitive eschatological comparisoning with you. Your views stand or fall on their own merits, and I know Dispensational Premillennialism. I can argue DPism better than CrowCross . Maybe better than you, but I'll withhold my verdict until you've either proven your views veracious or failed to do so.

So please do not dodge the questions when asked. Just answer them to the best of your ability and even if the answer is, "I do not know," post that. An honest forthcoming answer is better than obfuscation and subterfuge.

In Review:

You're Dispensational Premillennialist who does not agree with everything taught in DPism but as far as this op goes is asserting a Dispensational Premillenial view of the process of creation and redemption using Dispensationally Premillennial sources. DPism was literally invented in the 19th century (although it argues its precursors occurred before then) and it holds views that are not held by any other orthodox Christian historically and at least some of its views contradict orthodox Christian thought, doctrine and practice (like the soteriology of works I described). No, there is no such verse in the Bible and yes, God has revealed some of His timeline. Yes?​

Is that a fair summary of the conversation so far?

If so, then please answer the question about the history of false predictions. Do you acknowledge Dispensational Premillennialist teachers have been making predictions for the last 200 years and haven't been correct once?


If you like, we can next discuss the inherent inferential nature of DPism, at least for a few posts, but I think that conversation will be better served once a few more basics of DPism have been established. The inferential reading is going to be important to understand the process of creation and redemption - especially as it applies to the building of another temple. I therefore recommend we hold off on that concern a little while longer, but I will defer that decision to you because this is your op. We could, alternatively, take a brief departure from the current line of conversation and discuss the "timeline" and some of the markers thereof, but I foresee that being problematic because we haven't agree on a common hermeneutic.

I, therefore, think the better alternative is a quick examination of the Dispensational Premillennial hermeneutic. I suspect it will be a place where you depart from DPism, at least a little, and we may be able to establish some common ground that will pay benefits for the future Q&As.

• Do you acknowledge Dispensational Premillennialist teachers have been making predictions for the last 200 years and haven't been correct once?
• Can you acknowledge the temple building belief of Dispensational Premillennialism is one that is entirely inferential in nature?
• Are you ready and willing to answer a few questions about the DP hermeneutic (as articulated and asserted by the DPists themselves)? If so, then can you tell me the three main precepts of the Dispensational Premillennial hermeneutic?

Take your time with that last one. Maybe d a little research before answering. I've got to go soon and probably won't be back until morning. Also, you've been spare with your questions. I am happy to answer then where germane to the op-topic and the flow of the conversation so, if you have them, just ask them (one or two at a time). Blessing and peace til I return .










* Unlike some, I do not use the word "dispy" pejoratively. I was once a dispy and now I am not. It's a lot shorter than Dispensational Premillennialist. Please do not take offense.
.

 

[TMSO]

I appreciate the direct, immediate, and succinct answer. Thank you very much.

• Are you aware Dispensational Premillennialism was literally invented in the 19th century?
• Despite its current popularity among a large number of Christians, are you aware it is an eschatological position that is not held by most of Christendom?

?

Are you aware it was not invented. Darby studied a lot and came up with his sytem. Now preterism, that has no historical tradition to speak of, having literally been invented by a Jesuit leader during the counter reformation to lure protestants back to Catholicism.

 

[Josheb]

Are you aware it was not invented. Darby studied a lot and came up with his sytem.

You just contradicted yourself. If Darby "came up" with his system then it was invented. by him. I'm telling you the same thing I told @CrowCross: you're interfering and obstructing a conversation between two other posters and @Jarhead4Jesus is conducting himself in a MUCH better manner than either of you. He's setting an example both of you should emulate, an example Posts 11, 19, and 56 deplorably fail when you post off topically (like posts 11 & 19), or post self-contradictory nonsense (like Post 56). Both of you would be wise to follow the instructions of Proverbs 26:17 instead of indulging fallacy and error.

Origins of Dispensational Premillennialism:

Wiki 1: [Premillennial] Dispensationalism traces its roots to the 1830s and John Nelson Darby (1800–1882), an Anglican churchman and an early leader of the Plymouth Brethren.​

​

Wiki 2: John Nelson Darby (18 November 1800 – 29 April 1882) was an Anglo-Irish Bible teacher, one of the influential figures among the original Plymouth Brethren and the founder of the Exclusive Brethren. He is considered to be the father of modern dispensationalism and futurism. Pre-tribulation rapture theology was popularized extensively in the 1830s by John Nelson Darby and the Plymouth Brethren, and further popularized in the United States in the early 20th century by the wide circulation of the Scofield Reference Bible.​

​

Michael Vlach's article on Dispensational Theology at TGC: In his book, Dispensationalism before Darby, William C. Watson documents a strong futuristic hope for ethnic/national Israel that existed among many English theologians in the seventeenth and eighteenth centuries. In the nineteenth century Dispensationalism picked up and built upon this hope. As a system Dispensationalism is linked with the teachings of the Anglo-Irish theologian and Plymouth Brethren minister, John Nelson Darby (1800-82). Based on his study of Isaiah 32, Darby believed that Israel would experience earthly blessings in a future dispensation that were different from what the church would experience. He advocated for a strong distinction between Israel and the church. Darby also popularized the idea that the church would be raptured or snatched to heaven just prior to the seventieth-week of Daniel. Early Dispensationalism began in Britain but then experienced great popularity in the United States. Darby and other Brethren ministers brought Dispensationalism to America. The rise in popularity of Dispensationalism also occurred through Bible conferences, the rise of Bible institutes and colleges, the influence of Dallas Theological Seminary (est. 1924), and the popularity of radio and television programs from dispensational teachers.​

​

Timothy Weber at Christianity Today: The new premillennialism came to the United States following the Civil War, after flourishing in Britain among the Plymouth Brethren. One of the Brethren’s most gifted teachers was John Nelson Darby (1800-1882), a former priest in the Anglican Church of Ireland, who developed a new variety of futurist premillennialism. He called it dispensationalism, after the division of history into dispensations or eras.​

​

Founder of Dallas Theological Seminary, Lewis Chafer, in his book titled, "Dispensationalism," stated: The term modern dispensationalism implies that dispensationalism is modern. In the recovery of vital truth in the Reformation dispensational distinctions, like various other doctrines, were not emphasized. The truths thus neglected in the Reformation have since been set forth by devout Bible students, but against the opposition of those who assume that the Reformation secured all that is germane to Systematic Theology. The testimony, already cited, of Jonathan Edwards (1703-1758) that in his day dispensational distinctions were a living topic of theological discussion indicates the fact that these themes were dominant nearly three hundred years ago. Similarly, a worthy and scholarly research of the Bible with dispensational distinctions in view was made during the last century in England by J.N. Darby, Charles H. Mackintosh, William Kelly, F.W. Grant, and others who developed what is known as the Plymouth Brethren movement. These men created an extensive literature of surpassing value which is strictly Biblical and dispensational, though this literature has been strangely neglected by many conservative theologians. The term anno Domini is intensely dispensational in itself and the familiar dictum attributed to Augustine (354-430, A.D.), "Distinguish the ages and the Scriptures harmonize," could hardly be considered modern.​

​

The Second President of DTS, Charles Ryrie also wrote a book titled, "Dispensationalism" in which he stated: Ignorance is bliss, and it may well be that this popularity [of dispensationalism] would not be so great if the adherents of this system knew the historical background of what they teach. Few indeed realize that the teaching of Chafer came from Scofield, who in turn got it through the writings of Darby and the Plymouth Brethren.​

Then came John Walvoord, and after him came Thomas Ice, and then Michael Vlach and Blaising, Bock, Lester, Hummel and others, ALL of whom I have read. Those are the respected ones. I left out fools and profiteers like Hal Lindsay. I just cited Dispensational Premillennialists writing about Dispensational Premillennialism's origins in their own words. I did NOT quote from critics. I can max out the 10k character limit and fill multiple posts with proof DPism began in the 19th century (without ever citing a non-DPist). I have done exactly what I said I would do: speak to DPism from within DPism and not engage in a competition between DPism and alternatives. There is simply no way the origins of Dispensational Premillennialism in the 19th century can or should be denied. You prove yourselves to be poor Dispies when you do that.

So please refrain from mucking up this otherwise functional conversation between @Jarhead4Jesus and I. He has done a commendable job without you and given the infinite possibilities the choices both of you have made so far prove unhelpful at best, completely dysfunctional at worst.








I'll tell you the exact same thing I told @CrowCross, f either of you would like to discuss the origins of Dispensational Premillennialism with me then start an op specifying that subject and either link me to it here or PM me the link. Otherwise, please do not post any more dross in this thread.
.

 

[CrowCross]

and not like our brother @CrowCross, who refuses to answer questions directly or in a timely manner.

LOL....really?
Because you don't like an answer doesn't mean I haven't answered it directly. Then again sometimes there is no "direct" answer when you pressed me to tell you an exact date of when "soon" was....thing is, you were answered...and didn't like the reply. Oh well.

I have even shown you Darby wasn't the originator of what is now called [Premillennial] Dispensationalism. Tied in with the pre-tribulation rapture....but you wanted no part of it.

 

[Jarhead4Jesus]

Part 1:

No, it's based on the fact Dispensational Premillennialists have been making predictions about a variety of events and not a single one of them have ever come true.

The restoration of Israel should be measured by scripture, not the modern newscast. The existence of a modern state calling itself "Israel" is not, in and of itself, proof of anything, much less restoration of covenant Israel and the fulfillment of the way Dispensationalists interpret scripture. Modern Israel meats few, if any, of the measures of covenant Israel and it was the Israel of God's covenant promises that was promised restoration. This is one more place where you and every other Dispensationalist (including all of us former dispies in this forum) have been lied to. They told you Israel was going to be restored and when the secular nation of Israel was invented it was called a fulfillment of prophecy when it is nothing of the sort. Perhaps when it has all its land, AND becomes a nation of priests as God promised He would make them AND understands and believes the promises made to Abraham AND Jesus (Gal 3) AND bunch more stuff recorded in scripture, then and only then it might be a fulfillment of restoration but that is NOT going to happen in the next six years.

So, if I were speaking as a Dispensationalist Premillennialist who's actually studied, accepted and is believing God's word, I'd have to say the timeline in those graphics is waaaaaaay off.

We are clearly in disagreement about a number of biblical subjects.

 

[Jarhead4Jesus]

Part 2:

Yes, at least some of it.

Anyone who pays attention to ALL of the temporal markers stated in scripture AND takes them exactly as stated can and will understand something of God's eschatological "timeline," but it will not be the timeline taught in Dispensational Premillennialism. Even if modern Israel is going to be a fulfillment of Old Testament eschatological prophecy...... that means DPists have gotten one out of a gazillion predictions correct. Even broken clock is correct twice a day. Nothing has been achieved by claiming one questionable prediction correct. More will be required to prove Dispensational Premillennialist prognosticators are not false teachers.

Truely, I recommend that the next time you're reading through scripture from end-to-end, open a file and start stringing the timeline together. It has been (one of many) great areas of faith building for me. It forces you to pay attention to detail, and you learn that a lot of things that have been taught over the years is not accurate. You should enjoy that.

That's a cop out and NOT an answer to the question asked. It is logically impossible to claim another temple will be built in our future and not be able to point to a single verse stating that premise. You might as well make a bunch of stuff up and claim it's scriptural. Oh wait. DPism already does that. My bad.

Not at all. Your question was illegitimate and mute.

None of that has yet to be proved and you're jumping ahead, asserting facts that are not yet in evidence. If you do not first establish a foundation then nothing you will ever believe, ever post, ever teach will ever have any merit. It will all be baseless, foundation-less. I told you from the very beginning: I am not interested in competitive eschatological comparisoning with you. Your views stand or fall on their own merits, and I know Dispensational Premillennialism. I can argue DPism better than CrowCross . Maybe better than you, but I'll withhold my verdict until you've either proven your views veracious or failed to do so.

Perhaps we should discontinue this conversation since you want to talk about DPism and that is not at all the subject of this post.