Redemption: The Big Picture

[Josheb]

Hmmm ...is Heaven part of creation?

Yes! The very first verse of the Bible plainly, explicitly, undeniably states, "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth." Psalm 33:6 states, "By the word of the LORD the heavens were made, And by the breath of His mouth all their lights." By faith we understand that the world has been created by the word of God so that what is seen has not been made out of things that are visible (Heb. 11:3). In Christ all things were created, things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities. All things were created through Him and for Him (Col.1:16). He created the heavens, the highest heavens with all their host, the earth and all that is on it, the seas and all that is in them (Neh. 9:6). God made the earth by His power; He established the world by His wisdom and stretched out the heavens by His understanding (Jer. 10:12). The highest heavens praise God's name because He commanded and they were created (Ps. 148-4-5).

Have all the conversations about time, space, causality, and divine ontology occurred while you did not understand the heavens are created?

That they have not been able to do it, (or at least, that they have not done it), should tell us something about what God has intended from the beginning (decreed) concerning the matter...

You will have to make that case and make it without a false cause because what has not happened never explains divine intent for what has/does/will/would happen. How does humans not yet having dominion prove that is not God's intent? Make sure to include the many ways God and His people have had dominion is included in the explanation.

, and so, just who really is the purveyor of subsuming the creation to God. Heb 2:8 and other such passages say God did it, not humanity

False dichotomy. No Christian doctrine of dominion, not even the extreme iterations, teaches humans take dominion apart from God working in the lives of His people to accomplish His will in that regard. Not one. If you find some authoritative statement on the dominion mandate teaching it is done apart from God then please show me that source. Otherwise, ditch that notion because it has no basis in fact and, logically speaking, it is irrational. What God's people do they always do with God necessarily at work in them and around them to accomplish His will in His timing. It always has been that way.

...while I agree God does much by use of his creatures and his creation in all the permutations of cause-and-effect, this in particular doesn't come across to me as something we do.

Think it through.

So far, we know you haven't realized the heavens are a created part of creation, you've thought the dominion mandate was a function of human flesh alone, and you hold a false dichotomy in that regard. Correct all three of those errors (and the ones I have noted previously in this discussion) and it might come across to you differently.

I'm not suggesting that we subdue the world to someone else.

If it is not subsumed to God, then that is the only alternative. You are, therefore, implying that very position.

I'm say that whether or not we are commanded without repeal of the commandment to do so, we don't subdue the world.

Hmmm... Hard to see the picture from inside the frame.

At this very minute the people in this discussion post their beliefs as a direct consequence of God intervening in time and space to overcome sin in each individual's life. That has occurred because God conspired various circumstances to make sure learned of the choosing, the call, the preaching, the regeneration, sanctification, etc. in each and every individual's life was sovereignly changed where it had previously been desolate. Through the preaching of the gospel Christianity is not the largest religion in the world. It started out with twelve clueless men. Over the last two millennia the gospel as overcome and assimilated every competing worldview it encountered. In point of fact, until the rise of the Restoration Movement (and Dispensational Premillennialism, in particular) and the First World War, the preeminent viewpoint concerning the gospel, the Church and the world was that the Church's mission is defined as the overcoming of the world through the ministry of the gospel inspired, enabled, and empowered by God. It hasn't always been neat but the accomplishments of God's people are undeniable. You may not subdue, but piles fo Christians do. They do so every day. That's sort of the point of the op. The earth is our home, and the earth is being restored by the redemption of humanity.

But, like everything else I believe, if we do, it is a matter of monergism, so, I suppose, that should defeat my argument about Heb 2:8 et al!

Yep

 

[makesends]

makesends said:
Hmmm ...is Heaven part of creation?

Yes! The very first verse of the Bible plainly, explicitly, undeniably states, "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth." Psalm 33:6 states, "By the word of the LORD the heavens were made, And by the breath of His mouth all their lights." By faith we understand that the world has been created by the word of God so that what is seen has not been made out of things that are visible (Heb. 11:3). In Christ all things were created, things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities. All things were created through Him and for Him (Col.1:16). He created the heavens, the highest heavens with all their host, the earth and all that is on it, the seas and all that is in them (Neh. 9:6). God made the earth by His power; He established the world by His wisdom and stretched out the heavens by His understanding (Jer. 10:12). The highest heavens praise God's name because He commanded and they were created (Ps. 148-4-5).

Have all the conversations about time, space, causality, and divine ontology occurred while you did not understand the heavens are created?

False equivalence, no? I said, "Heaven"—not, "the heavens". You are saying that all references to heaven and the heavens are one and the same? I have heard from some on the matter that there are several different levels of "the heavens" that have nothing to do with Heaven itself, where we will live with God. While I have reason to believe that it, too, is a creation, I don't consider it part of 'this (temporal) creation', but 'this creation' to be part of what produces that.

makesends said:
That they have not been able to do it, (or at least, that they have not done it), should tell us something about what God has intended from the beginning (decreed) concerning the matter...

You will have to make that case and make it without a false cause because what has not happened never explains divine intent for what has/does/will/would happen. How does humans not yet having dominion prove that is not God's intent? Make sure to include the many ways God and His people have had dominion is included in the explanation.

True it does not explain divine intent for what will happen, but it does explain divine intent for what has happened. If it didn't happen, God intended for it to not happen, yet.

Perhaps you can make the case that if something would happen (or would have happened—I notice the combination of tenses in your statement as though they imply equally), but does not, God intended for it to happen, (but his intentions did not pan out). Is his decree unrelated to his intentions?

makesends said:
That they have not been able to do it, (or at least, that they have not done it), should tell us something about what God has intended from the beginning (decreed) concerning the matter...

False dichotomy. No Christian doctrine of dominion, not even the extreme iterations, teaches humans take dominion apart from God working in the lives of His people to accomplish His will in that regard. Not one. If you find some authoritative statement on the dominion mandate teaching it is done apart from God then please show me that source. Otherwise, ditch that notion because it has no basis in fact and, logically speaking, it is irrational. What God's people do they always do with God necessarily at work in them and around them to accomplish His will in His timing. It always has been that way.

(I'll pass on the apparent implication that any such authoritative statement would suffice. Any statement that something is done entirely apart from God's work is no authority, though there are plenty in my few years of arguing 'Christianity' that seem to think Godliness and maturity in sanctification is becoming able to make do without God's help, and becoming Christlike is to become able to take tasks and responsibilities upon oneself apart from him. But it is a moot point)—

—I'm not saying that it is done apart from him, nor that the commandment claims it is to be done apart from him. I'm saying that the subsuming is not done—not yet, anyway—and certainly not done by the time of the Biblical statement of Hebrews 2:8; granted, it is speaking of the temporal view... ("are you listening", @CrowCross —for your notion of actual temporal difference between the unregenerated elect and the reprobate?)

makesends said:
...while I agree God does much by use of his creatures and his creation in all the permutations of cause-and-effect, this in particular doesn't come across to me as something we do.

Think it through.

So far, we know you haven't realized the heavens are a created part of creation, you've thought the dominion mandate was a function of human flesh alone, and you hold a false dichotomy in that regard. Correct all three of those errors (and the ones I have noted previously in this discussion) and it might come across to you differently.

Nahh. I know very well that the heavens are creation. I haven't intimated otherwise. To claim "the heavens" and "Heaven" are one and the same has yet to be proven me. Nevertheless, I don't claim that the dominion mandate was a function of human flesh alone. No false dichotomy there. No three errors, there.

makesends said:
I'm not suggesting that we subdue the world to someone else.

If it is not subsumed to God, then that is the only alternative. You are, therefore, implying that very position.

Wrong. If is is not 'subsumed-to-God', an alternative can be 'not-subsumed'. So, I am not logically "implying that very position".

makesends said:
I'm say that whether or not we are commanded without repeal of the commandment to do so, we don't subdue the world.

Hmmm... Hard to see the picture from inside the frame.

At this very minute the people in this discussion post their beliefs as a direct consequence of God intervening in time and space to overcome sin in each individual's life. That has occurred because God conspired various circumstances to make sure learned of the choosing, the call, the preaching, the regeneration, sanctification, etc. in each and every individual's life was sovereignly changed where it had previously been desolate. Through the preaching of the gospel Christianity is not the largest religion in the world. It started out with twelve clueless men. Over the last two millennia the gospel as overcome and assimilated every competing worldview it encountered. In point of fact, until the rise of the Restoration Movement (and Dispensational Premillennialism, in particular) and the First World War, the preeminent viewpoint concerning the gospel, the Church and the world was that the Church's mission is defined as the overcoming of the world through the ministry of the gospel inspired, enabled, and empowered by God. It hasn't always been neat but the accomplishments of God's people are undeniable. You may not subdue, but piles fo Christians do. They do so every day. That's sort of the point of the op. The earth is our home, and the earth is being restored by the redemption of humanity.

Hmmm... Good point, there. Nevertheless, "we do not at present see it under his feet.", @CrowCross -style. Might be worth asking, though: In what particulars, then, do you see this subsuming differently from those of earlier mention, that believe our function here is to prepare the world for his coming? https://christcentered.community.forum/threads/study-of-the-bible.3286/page-3#post-127526

makesends said:
But, like everything else I believe, if we do, it is a matter of monergism, so, I suppose, that should defeat my argument about Heb 2:8 et al!

Yep

Little tongue-in-cheek, there, that it "should defeat my argument". (Just saying, in case you didn't pick up on it.)

 

[Josheb]

makesends said:
Hmmm ...is Heaven part of creation?

False equivalence, no? I said, "Heaven"—not, "the heavens". You are saying that all references to heaven and the heavens are one and the same? I have heard from some on the matter that there are several different levels of "the heavens" that have nothing to do with Heaven itself, where we will live with God. While I have reason to believe that it, too, is a creation, I don't consider it part of 'this (temporal) creation', but 'this creation' to be part of what produces that.

First, I have provided evidence straight from scripture for every concern you've broached, even though every concern you've broached is either personal opinion or sheer speculation and, therefore, the onus is on you, not me to provide the case for what you believe. Second, A plural "heavens" would include any and all heavens simply as a function of reading the text as written and not making an assumption there is some heaven not included in the heavens. Third, sometimes the word "heavens" is a reference to the sky, or what we today would call the earth's atmosphere, but a) the context of the passage informs the reference, and b) in ancient times the two were often synonymous because they believed the earth was surrounded by the heavens, which included the sky and the place where the stars were placed.

I gotta go. I'll pick up the rest of the post when I return BUT this line of inquiry is digressing further and further from the op, which is specifically about the earth.

 

[Josheb]

True it does not explain divine intent for what will happen, but it does explain divine intent for what has happened. If it didn't happen, God intended for it to not happen, yet.

Nonsense. The dominion mandate was first uttered before anything had happened. The sixth day of creation wasn't finished.

Perhaps you can make the case that if something would happen (or would have happened—I notice the combination of tenses in your statement as though they imply equally), but does not, God intended for it to happen, (but his intentions did not pan out). Is his decree unrelated to his intentions?

Shifting onus. There is no reason for making a case as an alternative to something that doesn't exist. When you take some initiative and provide an exegetical and relational case for the speculations you've posted then I will read it an respond to the op-relevant content accordingly.

(I'll pass on the apparent implication that any such authoritative statement would suffice. Any statement that something is done entirely apart from God's work is no authority...

Then the original concern you broached has no foundation.

, though there are plenty in my few years of arguing 'Christianity' that seem to think...

Take that up with them.

I'm not saying that it is done apart from him, nor that the commandment claims it is to be done apart from him.

Then there is no basis for the original concern.

I'm saying that the subsuming is not done—not yet, anyway—and certainly not done by the time of the Biblical statement of Hebrews 2:8; granted, it is speaking of the temporal view... ("are you listening", @CrowCross —for your notion of actual temporal difference between the unregenerated elect and the reprobate?)

Problem of ambiguity. If, when using the word "done," you mean complete then there are two ways of looking at the dominion mandate. One has to do with the enduring nature of such a command under the auspices that there is a point in the future in which the mandate's criteria are completed, but that would assume the mandate is not intended to apply to every generation until the earth is no more. Even in a subdued world the need for subduing and ruling exists as long as the earth and its inhabitants are corruptible. Whether or not there is a future, fixed, point of entire completion, there still exists the completion of your life, mine, and everyone who's here. If the word "done" is intended to mean doing, then I and many others have done and are doing dominion every day in Christ and will continue to do so until we draw our last breath and our portion of a more enduring command is complete. Either way, you're wrong.

Nahh. I know very well that the heavens are creation.

Ah, I see. So the original inquiry was disingenuous.

I haven't intimated otherwise.

Bye