Redemption: The Big Picture

[Josheb]

Hmmm ...is Heaven part of creation?

Yes! The very first verse of the Bible plainly, explicitly, undeniably states, "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth." Psalm 33:6 states, "By the word of the LORD the heavens were made, And by the breath of His mouth all their lights." By faith we understand that the world has been created by the word of God so that what is seen has not been made out of things that are visible (Heb. 11:3). In Christ all things were created, things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities. All things were created through Him and for Him (Col.1:16). He created the heavens, the highest heavens with all their host, the earth and all that is on it, the seas and all that is in them (Neh. 9:6). God made the earth by His power; He established the world by His wisdom and stretched out the heavens by His understanding (Jer. 10:12). The highest heavens praise God's name because He commanded and they were created (Ps. 148-4-5).

Have all the conversations about time, space, causality, and divine ontology occurred while you did not understand the heavens are created?

That they have not been able to do it, (or at least, that they have not done it), should tell us something about what God has intended from the beginning (decreed) concerning the matter...

You will have to make that case and make it without a false cause because what has not happened never explains divine intent for what has/does/will/would happen. How does humans not yet having dominion prove that is not God's intent? Make sure to include the many ways God and His people have had dominion is included in the explanation.

, and so, just who really is the purveyor of subsuming the creation to God. Heb 2:8 and other such passages say God did it, not humanity

False dichotomy. No Christian doctrine of dominion, not even the extreme iterations, teaches humans take dominion apart from God working in the lives of His people to accomplish His will in that regard. Not one. If you find some authoritative statement on the dominion mandate teaching it is done apart from God then please show me that source. Otherwise, ditch that notion because it has no basis in fact and, logically speaking, it is irrational. What God's people do they always do with God necessarily at work in them and around them to accomplish His will in His timing. It always has been that way.

...while I agree God does much by use of his creatures and his creation in all the permutations of cause-and-effect, this in particular doesn't come across to me as something we do.

Think it through.

So far, we know you haven't realized the heavens are a created part of creation, you've thought the dominion mandate was a function of human flesh alone, and you hold a false dichotomy in that regard. Correct all three of those errors (and the ones I have noted previously in this discussion) and it might come across to you differently.

I'm not suggesting that we subdue the world to someone else.

If it is not subsumed to God, then that is the only alternative. You are, therefore, implying that very position.

I'm say that whether or not we are commanded without repeal of the commandment to do so, we don't subdue the world.

Hmmm... Hard to see the picture from inside the frame.

At this very minute the people in this discussion post their beliefs as a direct consequence of God intervening in time and space to overcome sin in each individual's life. That has occurred because God conspired various circumstances to make sure learned of the choosing, the call, the preaching, the regeneration, sanctification, etc. in each and every individual's life was sovereignly changed where it had previously been desolate. Through the preaching of the gospel Christianity is not the largest religion in the world. It started out with twelve clueless men. Over the last two millennia the gospel as overcome and assimilated every competing worldview it encountered. In point of fact, until the rise of the Restoration Movement (and Dispensational Premillennialism, in particular) and the First World War, the preeminent viewpoint concerning the gospel, the Church and the world was that the Church's mission is defined as the overcoming of the world through the ministry of the gospel inspired, enabled, and empowered by God. It hasn't always been neat but the accomplishments of God's people are undeniable. You may not subdue, but piles fo Christians do. They do so every day. That's sort of the point of the op. The earth is our home, and the earth is being restored by the redemption of humanity.

But, like everything else I believe, if we do, it is a matter of monergism, so, I suppose, that should defeat my argument about Heb 2:8 et al!

Yep