• **Notifications**: Notifications can be dismissed by clicking on the "x" on the righthand side of the notice.
  • **New Style**: You can now change style options. Click on the paintbrush at the bottom of this page.
  • **Donations**: If the Lord leads you please consider helping with monthly costs and up keep on our Forum. Click on the Donate link In the top menu bar. Thanks
  • **New Blog section**: There is now a blog section. Check it out near the Private Debates forum or click on the Blog link in the top menu bar.
  • Welcome Visitors! Join us and be blessed while fellowshipping and celebrating our Glorious Salvation In Christ Jesus.

The powerless Arminian Jesus

Eph 2:1-3 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is at work in the sons of disobeidence---among whom we all once live in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.

This says it is how we all are until verses 4-9 takes place, and he is writing to those who have been re-born in Christ. We are born as children of wrath. Regardless of what some see this as, and I assume you are one, it is not even discussing the patience of God. Those who believe that salvation is by general grace given for understanding, and the work of Christ being applied to them depends on whether they accept this gift or not, believe what you state. (And therefore for most He died in vain.) But you have yet to demonstrate from scripture that that premise is true. I have done some unpacking in my previous post. Your turn.
Since you use scripture to refute scripture I would counter that Heb 6:4-6 demonstrates that one whose heart has been changed can choose. Heb6:4 It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age 6 and who have fallen[a] away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.

How could one be enlightened, taste the Heavenly Gift, share in the Holy Spirit, taste of the goodness of the Word of God and the Powers of the coming age not be born again? How could all of these attributes come from an unregenerated heart? How could this not be from a person who has experienced Eph 2:1-3 Are you prepared to agree that a person who has not been made alive can exhibit all of these attributes with a sinful dead heart?

Here we see that a person can be enlightened and yet fall away. That is why I do declare that God enlightens all men who come into this world so that they can make a choice. He sets before them good and evil. No, they do not save themselves, He saves them to the uttermost. To say that choosing to submit to the will of God is saving oneself is as silly as saying that calling on the name of the Lord is saving oneself. How can I know that even the lost have received the knowledge? The bible says so.

Hebrews 10:26-27
For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries.
 
If you ask that we not use logical fallacies in our arguments, why are you using nothing but logical fallacies here? You say I use proof text as a means of deflecting when in fact I have never done so, and even if I had, you have no way of knowing what was in my mind and so no way of knowing my reason. You imply that I don't address the texts when anyone reading this or any other thread knows that I do address the texts. So straw man and probably other fallacies, but I need more coffee.
What were the logical fallacies?
 
Since you use scripture to refute scripture I would counter that Heb 6:4-6 demonstrates that one whose heart has been changed can choose. Heb6:4 It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age 6 and who have fallen[a] away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.

How could one be enlightened, taste the Heavenly Gift, share in the Holy Spirit, taste of the goodness of the Word of God and the Powers of the coming age not be born again? How could all of these attributes come from an unregenerated heart? How could this not be from a person who has experienced Eph 2:1-3 Are you prepared to agree that a person who has not been made alive can exhibit all of these attributes with a sinful dead heart?
Since you use the oral traditions of men dying mankind in a attempt refute sola scriptura .

Hebrew 6: 4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

Enlightened tasted but did not take it into thier soul. Observers of the gospel. Referred as thorns a briers.

Hebrews 6:8- But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.

Better thing accompany salvation. he promises He will not forget the good works we can do according to his name as power . Without him we are powerless.

Hebrews 6:9-10 But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.
For God is not unrighteous to forget your work and labour of love, which ye have shewed toward his name, in that ye have ministered to the saints, and do minister.
 
What were the logical fallacies?
I just told you! You said I used "proof text" as a way of deflecting, then suggested that all I do is call it a proof text instead of addressing the text. First of all you give no evidence that I do that and there is evidence that I don't. Ad hominem and straw man.

Here are just two examples of you using a proof text and me addressing it.

Post 271
The whosoever believeth in me... Yes. Whosoever, not the pre-determined few.
My response post #294

You: post #264
My response #280
 
No, I believe in the same grace as you do. The only difference is I receive it by choosing to submit to God. Whereas it seems that you believe it is imposed on one without their consent.

Submitted to our invisible God the head of the church or what some call a Holy Father on earth as a oral tradition of dying mankind ?

Different kind of grace as a oral traditions of dying mankind a heresy an unknown remnant . Believers receive the fullness of Christ the complete cost of salvation.

2 Peter 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
 
Since you use scripture to refute scripture I would counter that Heb 6:4-6 demonstrates that one whose heart has been changed can choose. Heb6:4 It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age 6 and who have fallen[a] away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.
Where did @Arial say that one whose heart has been changed cannot choose? To my knowledge she has not even said that one whose heart has NOT been changed cannot choose!
How could one be enlightened, taste the Heavenly Gift, share in the Holy Spirit, taste of the goodness of the Word of God and the Powers of the coming age not be born again? How could all of these attributes come from an unregenerated heart? How could this not be from a person who has experienced Eph 2:1-3 Are you prepared to agree that a person who has not been made alive can exhibit all of these attributes with a sinful dead heart?
What attributes? You say "from" this hypothetical person, and call these things that are done TO this person, "attributes"?

Maybe, (I say, supposing that you intend honest dialogue), this can show you how your mindset changes your use of scripture.
Here we see that a person can be enlightened and yet fall away. That is why I do declare that God enlightens all men who come into this world so that they can make a choice. He sets before them good and evil. No, they do not save themselves, He saves them to the uttermost. To say that choosing to submit to the will of God is saving oneself is as silly as saying that calling on the name of the Lord is saving oneself. How can I know that even the lost have received the knowledge? The bible says so.

Hebrews 10:26-27
For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries.
 
Where did @Arial say that one whose heart has been changed cannot choose? To my knowledge she has not even said that one whose heart has NOT been changed cannot choose!
Where have you been? The entire debate has centered around free-will choice.
What attributes? You say "from" this hypothetical person, and call these things that are done TO this person, "attributes"?

Maybe, (I say, supposing that you intend honest dialogue), this can show you how your mindset changes your use of scripture.
Well, that is a conversation-ender.
 
Submitted to our invisible God the head of the church or what some call a Holy Father on earth as a oral tradition of dying mankind ?
I can't make heads or tails of this sentence. Who is submitted to our invisible God and why is being submitted to our invisible God an oral tradition of dying mankind?
Different kind of grace as a oral traditions of dying mankind a heresy an unknown remnant .
This is not even a sentence Really, what are you saying?
Believers receive the fullness of Christ the complete cost of salvation.

2 Peter 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
Yes
 
I just told you! You said I used "proof text" as a way of deflecting, then suggested that all I do is call it a proof text instead of addressing the text. First of all you give no evidence that I do that and there is evidence that I don't. Ad hominem and straw man.
First of all, if this were true it would not be a logical fallacy. It would simply be a fallacy. Secondly, I never said, "all you do." You do often dismiss arguments by claiming it's just proof texts.
Here are just two examples of you using a proof text and me addressing it.

Post 271

My response post #294

You: post #264
My response #280
That is two examples In the grand scoop of things you do use labels such as proof-text to dismiss arguments.
 
Since you use the oral traditions of men dying mankind in a attempt refute sola scriptura .
As if you don't. You just spent several posts using oral traditions to explain away God repenting. Even those who claim Sola Scriptura don't strictly stick to it. Things such as traditions and teachings of men like Calvin and Wesley are good if they do not contradict the bible. Does the Holy Spirit only speak to you in bible texts?
Hebrew 6: 4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

Enlightened tasted but did not take it into thier soul. Observers of the gospel. Referred as thorns a briers.
Here you are using oral traditions to refute scriptures. Now make the same point with Sola Scriptura. Where does it say that they did not take it into their soul? Are you saying that an unborn-again person can partake of the Holy Spirit? Are you now agreeing with me that an unborn-again person can be enlightened? If so, then you can see how a person can choose.
Hebrews 6:8- But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.
Yes, they are. What point are you trying to make?
Better thing accompany salvation. he promises He will not forget the good works we can do according to his name as power . Without him we are powerless.

Hebrews 6:9-10 But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.
For God is not unrighteous to forget your work and labour of love, which ye have shewed toward his name, in that ye have ministered to the saints, and do minister.
This is also true but I don't know why you quoted it.
 
Arminians must believe,
As I came to understand (as a properly propagandized Southern Baptist "Systematic") That there's a basic difference between "Wesleyan" oriented theologians, and Calvinist theologians - i.e. that Calvinists are all about Proof texts, and legalism, and Wesleyans aren't to the same degree. So trying to analyze a "Wesleyan/Arminian theology" with a Calvinist frame of reference won't really be effective in ascertaining what "Arminians must believe".

Frankly, the only "Practical conceptual difference" between the two systematics seems to be the question: "Who moves first".

To a large degree, Arminians tend to believe that MAN moves first, and God "blesses" and empowers them, whereas Calvinists believe (Properly in my opinion) that: in everything GOD MOVES FIRST. The Arminian teaches that "Prayer Changes things", while the Calvinist agrees, but understands that if God hadn't initially moved the person to pray, they wouldn't have.

Arminians don't spend as much time fretting about theological minutia like Calvinists do.
 
Since you use scripture to refute scripture I would counter that Heb 6:4-6 demonstrates that one whose heart has been changed can choose. Heb6:4 It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age 6 and who have fallen[a] away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.
What scripture did I use to refute what scripture? I gave scripture that refutes your belief. There is a difference. And you are using this one to refute what I was claiming about Eph 2 by your understanding of this scripture---all based on what you have determined enlightened means, and what you determine that being raised to spiritual life from being spiritually dead mean. It is a false equivalence.

Before we get to unpacking the Hebrew 6 text, we need to get what Eph 2 means. This makes for long posts, but if is how we find if we are getting meaning and doctrine from our presuppositions or from Scripture itself. You can either not read it, or read it and dismiss it on the grounds that you don't agree with it, and don't want to, not on what was actually done/said. I realize that at this point, you have no intention of changing you mind, no matter what.

Eph 2:1-2 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked----- 4-6 But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ--by grace you have been saved, and raised us up with him and seated us with him him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus---.

The us are Paul's recipients---the church at Ephesus, believers. Once they were dead in sin, but were made alive by God and seated with Christ. This was done by grace. Note, they have been/are raised to life, they have been/are seated with Christ in the heavenly places. So what part of being raised to life and being seated with Him, by grace, is merely an offer of grace? A choice on whether or not to accept this grace? If being made alive seats one with Christ in the heavenlies how is being made alive merely the ability to choose or reject? You need to answer these questions.

You give as support for your position a scripture in Hebrews that would contradict the clear teaching of Eph 2. It becomes a contradiction because of a misinterpretation of Eph 2.

This is what you say of Hebrews 6:4-6 and slightly change the subject.
How could one be enlightened, taste the Heavenly Gift, share in the Holy Spirit, taste of the goodness of the Word of God and the Powers of the coming age not be born again? How could all of these attributes come from an unregenerated heart? How could this not be from a person who has experienced Eph 2:1-3 Are you prepared to agree that a person who has not been made alive can exhibit all of these attributes with a sinful dead heart?
They aren't attributes in that text, you presume they are. They are external to those who fall away, not internal. As was the case with Judas. And how do I know this? Even though this text leaves room for equivocation, and has been the subject of controversy forever, if it means that the saved can be lost it directly contradicts scriptures with no equivocation. John 10:27-29 My sheep hear my voice, and I now them, and they follow me; and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.

Romans 8:30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.

Eph 1:13-14 In him also, after listening to the message of truth the gospel of your salvation---having believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God's own possession, to the praise of His glory.


We have the Scripture that says He who began a good work in us will finish it. We have every verse that promises eternal life for those who believe. If eternal life is given, it cannot be lost, and if it could be, it was an empty promise and temporary not eternal.

That being the case, let's look at Heb 6:4-6.

It is a mistake to isolate these verses from Heb chapters 1-5. Heb 6:1 begins with the word "therefore". It is part of an ongoing conversation. Heb 1 begins by identifying Christ and ends with "Are they (angels) not all ministering spirits sent out to serve for the sake of those who are to inherit salvation?" Chapter 2 begins with a "therefore." "we must tpay much closer attention to what we have heard, lest we drift away from it---". The writer then expounds even deeper on who Christ is and His supremacy,, ending with "For because he himself has suffered when tempted, he is able to help those who are being tempted."

Chapter 3 begins with another "therefore". Chapter 4 with another "therefore." Chapter 5, no "therefore" but an exposition of the priesthood of Christ and how through obedience in suffering He became the source of eternal salvation to all who obey Him. It ends 11-14 with "About this we have much to say, and it is hard to explain, since you have become dull of hearing. For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you again the basic principles of the oracles of God. You need mik, not solid food for everyone who lives on milk is unskilled in the word of righteousness, since he is a child. But solid food is for the mature, for those who have the powers of discernment trained by constant practice to distinguish good from evil."

Chapter 6 "Therefore let us leave the elementary doctrine of Christ and go on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance----"

It is apparent that the author is writing to immature Christians, who have the basics of salvation and believe it, but are not growing in training in righteousness. There are no doubt a lot of reasons for this, including heavy persecution by both unconverted Jews and the state. Along with this would come discouragement in doing good and in letting go of Jewish traditions and law. The rest of the book deals heavily with both of these, instruction wise.

Verses 4-6 are not an indictment or accusation, but a warning of what it would mean if they abandon their faith. There are a couple of understandings of the words "enlightenment", etc. refer to. They could refer to persons who align with the church and its teachings, have borne witness of all those things, in proximity without denying it and participating in them, but had not been born again, and eventually flat out rejected it. That happens ALL the time. The tares growing alongside the wheat. And if that happened, not that it did, a rejection to the knowledge and understand that was given, they could not be restored again. But enlightened does not always and everywhere mean born again, and it is not saying here that a person who is born again can be unborn again. Or that eternal life is not really eternal. In fact, it is not actually dealing with the subject OSAS doctrinally, but as a warning, and as encouragement to pursue righteousness in the face of suffering.
 
Here we see that a person can be enlightened and yet fall away. That is why I do declare that God enlightens all men who come into this world so that they can make a choice. He sets before them good and evil. No, they do not save themselves, He saves them to the uttermost. To say that choosing to submit to the will of God is saving oneself is as silly as saying that calling on the name of the Lord is saving oneself. How can I know that even the lost have received the knowledge? The bible says so.
Well, according to Paul in 1 Cor 2:14 that is not the case. The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he cannot understand them because they are spiritually discerned.

You see you completely get knocked off the path when your premise is false in the first place. Salvation is not and never was about choosing. It is about believing. And how is one to believe something they cannot even understand. The very thing Paul made a point of preaching. Christ and Him crucified.
 
Well, according to Paul in 1 Cor 2:14 that is not the case. The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he cannot understand them because they are spiritually discerned.

You see you completely get knocked off the path when your premise is false in the first place. Salvation is not and never was about choosing. It is about believing. And how is one to believe something they cannot even understand. The very thing Paul made a point of preaching. Christ and Him crucified.
You have painted yourself into a corner. The text above means the Heb 6:4-6 is referring to a born again Christian since only a born again Christian could partake of the Holy Spirit.
 
You have painted yourself into a corner. The text above means the Heb 6:4-6 is referring to a born again Christian since only a born again Christian could partake of the Holy Spirit.
That would only be the case if "partake" means indwelt. And if it does mean indwealt, then the scripture that says we are sealed by the Holy Spirit in Christ is a lie. You work out those tangles for yourself. I have no tangles on the matter. Or you could just ignore that you make a contradiction in the Bible. It wouldn't be the first time, and it won't be the last. Personally, I am not comfortable with apparent contradictions because it means something is wrong. Either the word of God is not reliable, or I have interpreted something wrong. Now, if you can establish that we are sealed by the Holy Spirit in Christ, and can also lose our salvation, I am all ears. If you can establish how Jesus cannot lose any the Father gives him and at the same time can lose them, I am all ears.
 
Well, according to Paul in 1 Cor 2:14 that is not the case. The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he cannot understand them because they are spiritually discerned.

You see you completely get knocked off the path when your premise is false in the first place. Salvation is not and never was about choosing. It is about believing. And how is one to believe something they cannot even understand. The very thing Paul made a point of preaching. Christ and Him crucified.
One must choose to believe. I have done it on many occasions.
 
That would only be the case if "partake" means indwelt. And if it does mean indwealt, then the scripture that says we are sealed by the Holy Spirit in Christ is a lie. You work out those tangles for yourself. I have no tangles on the matter. Or you could just ignore that you make a contradiction in the Bible. It wouldn't be the first time, and it won't be the last. Personally, I am not comfortable with apparent contradictions because it means something is wrong. Either the word of God is not reliable, or I have interpreted something wrong. Now, if you can establish that we are sealed by the Holy Spirit in Christ, and can also lose our salvation, I am all ears. If you can establish how Jesus cannot lose any the Father gives him and at the same time can lose them, I am all ears.
Then you agree that a non-born-again person can be enlightened and partake of the Holy Spirit. Well, then, that is what I have been saying all along. Now, this non-born-again person was not enlightened by his efforts, and he was not enlightened by other mortals, so it must be God who enlightened him and gave him a taste of the power of the world to come. This non-born-again person partook of the Holy Spirit, not by his power, so why would God do that? Could it be so this non-born-again person could choose whereas before he could not? Or perhaps he was born-again but then decided to turn back to death, to the fleshpots of Egypt.
 
Where have you been? The entire debate has centered around free-will choice.
How does a conversation around free-will choice mean that @Arial denies anyone chooses?
Well, that is a conversation-ender.
Tongue-tied? If I didn't know better, I'd think you just admitted your line was deficient in reason.
 
Back
Top