The powerless Arminian Jesus

[Mercy_Shown]

All right, let's take a closer look at your rebuttal.

I had said, "Light, of course, is a metaphor for righteousness—again, the holiness of God—and darkness is a metaphor for lawlessness, which is sin," a claim that was drawn from 1 John 3:4 and 2 Corinthians 6:14.

And your rebuttal of this claim began by saying that 1 John 3:4 does not support that sin is a metaphor for darkness—"This does not comment on sin being a metaphor for darkness"—which frankly left me dumbstruck because this rebuts a claim that I wasn't making.

“And light, of course, is a metaphor for righteousness—again, the holiness of God—and darkness is a metaphor for lawlessness, which is sin’

Transposing sin and darkness was a mistake I made but the rebuttal still applies to what I intended to say. It does not support darkness as a metaphor for sin. I think you would have recognized it as a mistake if you read the entire post.

 

[Mercy_Shown]

I said that darkness is a metaphor for lawlessness and pointed to 2 Corinthians 6:14 as an example of what I was saying (as that citation was preceded with "e.g."). There, Paul rhetorically asked, "What partnership is there between righteousness and lawlessness, or what fellowship does light have with darkness?" Give due attention to the comparative conjunction "or" that Paul uses there, wherein he is underscoring a similarity between righteousness versus lawlessness and light versus darkness. Light is a metaphor for righteousness, and darkness is a metaphor for lawlessness. (But, again, that relationship is asymmetrical; e.g., righteousness is not a metaphor for light.)

This does not refute the rebuttal. The verse is actually referring to people. People should not be unequally yolked. The ones who have come to the light should not yolk with those who love darkness. But the darkness is not sin it is where sinners hide.

Darkness and light are more related to the truth about a person being revealed or hidden. To have a foolish heart darkened is akin to it losing its knowledge of God and hiding its deeds.

 

[Arial]

This would be true if the Damned were dying for their sins. But they are dying because they love darkness more than light. Jesus condemned sin in the flesh. Not just some sins but sin. This is founding Romans 8:3
Those that die eternally die in their sins not for their sins.

That is incorrect. It is one of the more convoluted ways of avoiding what is clear and what I posted, that I have seen to date. It is sin to love darkness more than light. That is an expression of unbelief. We are not asked by God to decide which we love more, darkness or light, we are commanded to believe in Christ. That is the universal call. And those who do not believe in Him, according to Jesus in John 10, do not do so because why? They are not His sheep. This is in the midst of a long discourse on sheep and shepherds, in which Jesus identifies His sheep as the ones who God gives Him, and that they without decision, hear His voice, that He knows them, and they follow Him. They believe. We live in a kingdom of darkness and it is from this kingdom of darkness that God snatches us out of. He does not ask, do we want out. He does not ask if we prefer the darkness, He takes His sheep and brings them into the kingdom of the Son He love.

Loving darkness is sin. We are taken out of Adam and put in Christ. That is the sin of Adam that is removed. But we also sinned all the livelong day and those sins must also be atoned for. They must meet justice. We still sin, and we are still in Adam in the flesh. Those sins must have met justice in the Justifier, the Redeemer. To say those who reject Christ are dying, not because of their sins, but because they loved darkness more that light, is intensely unbiblical. It is a fabrication so as to hold tightly to what is not true, because it is not given in the Bible, in spite of all the clear evidence to the contrary.

 

[Mercy_Shown]

And then I pointed to 1 John 3:4 to emphasize that lawlessness is sin, which is just what the text says. So, darkness is a metaphor for lawlessness (with a reference to Paul for this point), and lawlessness is sin (with a reference to John for this point).

I don’t think you have established this as fact. You key text is a single text on which you are establishing a doctrine something you discourage in others. If you take away your key passage you are left with nothing and even the key passage falls short of defining darkness as sin it is the state in which sinners hide their evil deeds.

 

[Mercy_Shown]

All right, let's take a closer look at your rebuttal.

I had said, "Light, of course, is a metaphor for righteousness—again, the holiness of God—and darkness is a metaphor for lawlessness, which is sin," a claim that was drawn from 1 John 3:4 and 2 Corinthians 6:14.

And your rebuttal of this claim began by saying that 1 John 3:4 does not support that sin is a metaphor for darkness—"This does not comment on sin being a metaphor for darkness"—which frankly left me dumbstruck because this rebuts a claim that I wasn't making. The relationship of metaphor is asymmetric (i.e., elephant being a metaphor for memory does not suggest that memory is a metaphor for elephant). There is little else for me to do with this beyond highlighting your futile straw man.

I said that darkness is a metaphor for lawlessness and pointed to 2 Corinthians 6:14 as an example of what I was saying (as that citation was preceded with "e.g."). There, Paul rhetorically asked, "What partnership is there between righteousness and lawlessness, or what fellowship does light have with darkness?" Give due attention to the comparative conjunction "or" that Paul uses there, wherein he is underscoring a similarity between righteousness versus lawlessness and light versus darkness. Light is a metaphor for righteousness, and darkness is a metaphor for lawlessness. (But, again, that relationship is asymmetrical; e.g., righteousness is not a metaphor for light.)

And then I pointed to 1 John 3:4 to emphasize that lawlessness is sin, which is just what the text says. So, darkness is a metaphor for lawlessness (with a reference to Paul for this point), and lawlessness is sin (with a reference to John for this point).

Again, the wicked prefer darkness to light because they love their sin and hate God who lays bare their sin by his holiness. And, again, it is God himself who is the basis for judgment, for there is no moral standard higher than his own holiness. "Sin" by definition is missing that mark.

So, my question remains: If their wicked deeds, evil thoughts, shameful lusts, love of darkness, and unbelief are all sin, and if Christ fully paid the penalty for all their sin, whose atoning sacrifice removed their sin guilt and satisfied God's just wrath (1 John 2:2), then what are they doing in hell?

They loved darkness more than light. Because Jesus condemned sin in the flesh and set humanity free does not mean that he then chained man to his side for all eternity. They chose to remain outside of God’s life and thus when the physical body runs out they pass into eternal destruction.

God would that all men should be saved and yet that will not be the case. The only reason for this is that they chose not to. Because the prison door has been sprung it does not force the prisoner to leave.

 

[Mercy_Shown]

That is incorrect. It is one of the more convoluted ways of avoiding what is clear and what I posted, that I have seen to date. It is sin to love darkness more than light.

The Bible does not say that. It simple gives the reason why the lost love darkness.

 

[DialecticSkeptic]

... [D]arkness is not sin.

Fine, we'll take this slowly.

(1) Define sin, and then (2) define light. We are going to look at why you think darkness is not sin, given (1) and (2).

 

[CrowCross]

God will present every man a choice and He will make them alive enough to understand the choice. What God will not do is give one class of people the magic pill of His grace while denying it to the other and then punishing them for their sins.

.....He will make them alive enough to understand....True....and if he doesn't they will never understand.

Point one...God is active in ones salvation.

As I have said before, God knows the outcome and has known it forever, but He will still cast the seed and send rain and sunshine upon it so that every man is judged by their own decision to pursue what they love.

The future has happened for God.

God doesn't choose you...knowing you would choose Him.

 

[Arial]

The Bible does not say that. It simple gives the reason why the lost love darkness.

Well, is loving darkness sin? The light exposes their sins so they don't come to it. And you are trying to say that this is what they die for when what the die for is not coming to Jesus, and it is not coming to Jesus that leaves their sins judged. Why? Because Jesus didn't pay for them. You still have propitiation not being an actual propitiation, even though it was an actual death, but merely an actual death that was nothing more than an offer. Which means it was never a propitiation, and John lied.

Jesus told us why some come to the light and some don't. I will quote Him for you again. John 3: 3 Jesus answered him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God." 7. "Do not marvel that I said to you,'You must be born again, The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit." 18-19 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God. And this is the judgement: the light has come into the world, and people love the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil. (Notice it does not say there that some people love the darkness rather than the light, but that people do. That is people for you.)

John 6:44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day. 63-65 It is the Spirit who gives life the flesh is no help at all. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life, But there are some of you who do not believe."(For Jesus knew from the beginning who those were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray him. And he said, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.

John 10:24-30 So the Jews gathered around him and said to him, "How long will you keep us in suspense? If you are the Christ,tell us plainly. Jesus answered them, "I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father's name bear witness about me, but you do not believe because you are not among my sheep. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand. I and the Father are one.

How many times does Jesus have to say it before you believe Him? Jesus laid down His life for His sheep (as He said earlier in that chapter) and His sheep are specific---the ones the Father gives Him. In John 3 those the Holy Spirit regenerates. In John 6 those granted by the Father to believe. And if this is taken away, there is no actual propitiation, no actual substitution, no actual ransom paid, no actual atonement-----no justification.

 

[DialecticSkeptic]

I don’t think you have established this as fact. You key text is a single text on which you are establishing a doctrine something you discourage in others. If you take away your key passage you are left with nothing and even the key passage falls short of defining darkness as sin it is the state in which sinners hide their evil deeds.

You misunderstand, somehow even in the face of my clear and explicit statements. I said that 2 Corinthians 6:14 is an "example" of the point I was making. I not only called it an example in my original response to you, but also in my follow-up response I underscored that it's an example of what I am saying. I had assumed, perhaps foolishly, that the point was so obviously biblical that a single example would suffice.

It is certainly not the "key passage" upon which I base this belief. That would be 1 John 1:5-10, where John spells out clearly that the light is defined by God, who lives in the light and indeed is the light—and, not coincidentally, righteousness is defined the same way. Here, as in the judgment, the basis is the holiness of God. And by virtue of defining the light, the darkness is privatively defined as the absence of God—which, not coincidentally, is also how sin is defined (both the Hebrew and Greek terms), namely, any want of conformity to the commands or character of God (i.e., missing the mark).

Those in the light confess and repent of their sins, whilst those in the darkness love and conceal their sin, hating the light which exposes their shamefulness—the point that I keep driving home, namely, that it is "the holiness of God which lays bare our sin, first by the Word of God but ultimately on that final day."

They loved darkness more than light.

Is that a sin? (Hint: Yes.)

It is sin to love darkness more than light.

The Bible does not say that.

It most certainly does.

Their sins were also paid for on that cross.

Then why are they in hell? Not because of sin. So, then what?

 

[DialecticSkeptic]

[Deleted.]

 

[Mercy_Shown]

Well, is loving darkness sin? The light exposes their sins so they don't come to it. And you are trying to say that this is what they die for when what the die for is not coming to Jesus, and it is not coming to Jesus that leaves their sins judged. Why? Because Jesus didn't pay for them. You still have propitiation not being an actual propitiation, even though it was an actual death, but merely an actual death that was nothing more than an offer. Which means it was never a propitiation, and John lied.

The sins of the whole world were laid upon Christ. Isaiah says the iniquity of us all. There now is the gift of God given to all who receive him. That gift is in Jesus Christ. Nothing can live forever unattached to eternal life. Even a perfect person would still need to be connected to the source of eternal life. Those that love darkness in which to hide their evil deeds will not come to Christ. They will not accept the Gift that is in him . Even though God reconciled himself to them they refuse to reconcile themselves to him so without the source of eternal life they will perish like a plant without water.

 

[Mercy_Shown]

Jesus told us why some come to the light and some don't. I will quote Him for you again. John 3: 3 Jesus answered him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God." 7. "Do not marvel that I said to you,'You must be born again, The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit." 18-19 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God. And this is the judgement: the light has come into the world, and people love the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil. (Notice it does not say there that some people love the darkness rather than the light, but that people do. That is people for you.)

The word judgement better means indictment or condemnation which would indicate those who are being condemned. Those being saved come into the light. John 3:21 says, “But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what they have done has been done in the sight of God.”

 

[Mercy_Shown]

John 6:44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day. 63-65 It is the Spirit who gives life the flesh is no help at all. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life, But there are some of you who do not believe."(For Jesus knew from the beginning who those were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray him. And he said, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.

Yes and the father wishes all to be saved. (1 Timothy 2:4; 2 Peter 3:9; Ezekiel 18:23; Matthew 23:37).

Everyone who is saved I’ve been drawn by the father and everyone who is lost will have resisted the drawing of the father.

 

[His clay]

Well, is loving darkness sin? The light exposes their sins so they don't come to it. And you are trying to say that this is what they die for when what the die for is not coming to Jesus, and it is not coming to Jesus that leaves their sins judged. Why? Because Jesus didn't pay for them. You still have propitiation not being an actual propitiation, even though it was an actual death, but merely an actual death that was nothing more than an offer. Which means it was never a propitiation, and John lied.

Jesus told us why some come to the light and some don't. I will quote Him for you again. John 3: 3 Jesus answered him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God." 7. "Do not marvel that I said to you,'You must be born again, The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit." 18-19 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God. And this is the judgement: the light has come into the world, and people love the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil. (Notice it does not say there that some people love the darkness rather than the light, but that people do. That is people for you.)

John 6:44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day. 63-65 It is the Spirit who gives life the flesh is no help at all. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life, But there are some of you who do not believe."(For Jesus knew from the beginning who those were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray him. And he said, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.

John 10:24-30 So the Jews gathered around him and said to him, "How long will you keep us in suspense? If you are the Christ,tell us plainly. Jesus answered them, "I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father's name bear witness about me, but you do not believe because you are not among my sheep. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand. I and the Father are one.

How many times does Jesus have to say it before you believe Him? Jesus laid down His life for His sheep (as He said earlier in that chapter) and His sheep are specific---the ones the Father gives Him. In John 3 those the Holy Spirit regenerates. In John 6 those granted by the Father to believe. And if this is taken away, there is no actual propitiation, no actual substitution, no actual ransom paid, no actual atonement-----no justification.

Matthew 22:34-40
34 But when the Pharisees heard that he had silenced the Sadducees, they gathered together. 35 And one of them, a lawyer, asked him a question to test him. 36 “Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?” 37 And he said to him, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. 38 This is the great and first commandment. 39 And a second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. 40 On these two commandments depend all the Law and the Prophets.” (esv)

Jesus points out the summation of the law and prophets (1) love God with your whole being, (2) love your neighbor as yourself. To not love God is to sin. To not love your neighbor as yourself is sin. Again, this is a summation of the law and the prophets by Jesus. Thusly, it is not a stretch at all to say that loving darkness rather than the light is sin, precisely because God is the light. His word is a lamp unto my feet and a light unto my path. To spurn God and His word and prefer darkness is to break the commands of God, which is to miss the mark, which is to sin.

I write this, not as a critique of your position, but as a demonstration of Jesus Himself spelling out the falsity of the other poster's words. This post is simply meant to elucidate scripture and add weight to your argument.

 

[Mercy_Shown]

John 10:24-30 So the Jews gathered around him and said to him, "How long will you keep us in suspense? If you are the Christ,tell us plainly. Jesus answered them, "I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father's name bear witness about me, but you do not believe because you are not among my sheep. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand. I and the Father are one.

Yes, the sheep are those who hear his voice. The last of those who do not want to have anything to do with him and both are that way by choice.

 

[Mercy_Shown]

How many times does Jesus have to say it before you believe Him? Jesus laid down His life for His sheep (as He said earlier in that chapter) and His sheep are specific---the ones the Father gives Him. In John 3 those the Holy Spirit regenerates. In John 6 those granted by the Father to believe. And if this is taken away, there is no actual propitiation, no actual substitution, no actual ransom paid, no actual atonement-----no justification.

How many times does he have to say that he died for the whole world before you believe it? Of course he died for his sheep but not his sheep only but for the whole world. As I said in the beginning he knew who would respond to him and he wouldn’t but that didn’t stop him from providing the same opportunities for all.

 

[Mercy_Shown]

Matthew 22:34-40
34 But when the Pharisees heard that he had silenced the Sadducees, they gathered together. 35 And one of them, a lawyer, asked him a question to test him. 36 “Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?” 37 And he said to him, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. 38 This is the great and first commandment. 39 And a second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. 40 On these two commandments depend all the Law and the Prophets.” (esv)

Jesus points out the summation of the law and prophets (1) love God with your whole being, (2) love your neighbor as yourself. To not love God is to sin. To not love your neighbor as yourself is sin. Again, this is a summation of the law and the prophets by Jesus. Thusly, it is not a stretch at all to say that loving darkness rather than the light is sin, precisely because God is the light. His word is a lamp unto my feet and a light unto my path. To spurn God and His word and prefer darkness is to break the commands of God, which is to miss the mark, which is to sin.

I write this, not as a critique of your position, but as a demonstration of Jesus Himself spelling out the falsity of the other poster's words. This post is simply meant to elucidate scripture and add weight to your argument.

You missed the entire point of the posts but then again I suppose you don’t really have interest in knowing what they were. If you do just ask.

 

[Mercy_Shown]

You misunderstand, somehow even in the face of my clear and explicit statements. I said that 2 Corinthians 6:14 is an "example" of the point I was making. I not only called it an example in my original response to you, but also in my follow-up response I underscored that it's an example of what I am saying. I had assumed, perhaps foolishly, that the point was so obviously biblical that a single example would suffice.

You should never embed your conclusion in your argument.

It might also help you to post much clearer if you didn’t consider everyone else at fault but you yourself perfect in your explanations.

 

[Mercy_Shown]

It is certainly not the "key passage" upon which I base this belief. That would be 1 John 1:5-10, where John spells out clearly that the light is defined by God, who lives in the light and indeed is the light—and, not coincidentally, righteousness is defined the same way. Here, as in the judgment, the basis is the holiness of God. And by virtue of defining the light, the darkness is privatively defined as the absence of God—which, not coincidentally, is also how sin is defined (both the Hebrew and Greek terms), namely, any want of conformity to the commands or character of God (i.e., missing the mark).

There is nothing in 1John 5–10 that supports your definitions of light and dark. The passage describes who lives in darkness and who lives in light. Light reveals what a person is in darkness hides what a person is. The fact is, light is a person, the person of Jesus Christ.