The Myth of saying that God Loved all men in the world without exception !

[brightfame52]

Now them He called or named He also Justified, observe Rom 8:29

Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Now remember, we are following the thought that God Loved all mankind without exception. And since He supposedly did, then He must have in Love Predestinated all mankind without exception unto the adoption of Children as stated in Eph 1:4-5

4According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

5Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

Now, with that connection, All whom He predestinated He foreknew Paul says in Rom 8:29-30

29For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

30Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

So we arrive at our next step in God's predestination to them He loved, and that is them He Justified. So according to them who teach God Loved all men without exception, to be consistent, then they must believe and teach all men without exception are Justified before God. The word Justified is the greek word dikaioō and means:


to render righteous or such he ought to be

2) to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered

3) to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be

It means to be declared righteous.

So everyone because God Loved them, are declared righteous, there should not be one unrighteous person of all mankind according to this view. Everyone is righteous, or else God's predestination is a farce and failure. 2

 

[JIM]

Now them He called or named He also Justified, observe Rom 8:29

Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Now remember, we are following the thought that God Loved all mankind without exception. And since He supposedly did, then He must have in Love Predestinated all mankind without exception unto the adoption of Children as stated in Eph 1:4-5

4According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

5Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

Now, with that connection, All whom He predestinated He foreknew Paul says in Rom 8:29-30

29For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

30Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

So we arrive at our next step in God's predestination to them He loved, and that is them He Justified. So according to them who teach God Loved all men without exception, to be consistent, then they must believe and teach all men without exception are Justified before God. The word Justified is the greek word dikaioō and means:


to render righteous or such he ought to be

2) to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered

3) to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be

It means to be declared righteous.

So everyone because God Loved them, are declared righteous, there should not be one unrighteous person of all mankind according to this view. Everyone is righteous, or else God's predestination is a farce and failure. 2

Argue all you want, however Jesus said,

Mat 5:43 "You have heard that it was said, 'You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.'
Mat 5:44 But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,

So you are trying to say that even though Jesus said that we must love our enemies, God does not. Spin it any way you wish, but I find that to be really wrong. And I don't think Jesus was wrong.

 

[brightfame52]

Argue all you want, however Jesus said,

Mat 5:43 "You have heard that it was said, 'You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.'
Mat 5:44 But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,

So you are trying to say that even though Jesus said that we must love our enemies, God does not. Spin it any way you wish, but I find that to be really wrong. And I don't think Jesus was wrong.

It does say that, but nothing here even suggests God Loves everyone, thats a Myth

 

[brightfame52]

Them he also glorified.

And finally, them that He Justified, them He also Glorified !

Rom 8:30

30Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Notice that scripture uses the past tense here, them He also glorified. All for whom God Loved have been and will be Glorified. They were glorified first of all when they rose together with their Glorious Head, when He was Glorified after having been raised up from the dead. Remember when Jesus said, speaking of His impending death Lk 24:26

26Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory?

His Glory was entered into when He sat down at the Right Hand of God after completing the redemption of His People ! Heb 1:3

3Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:

This is of that Glory He had with the Father before the world was John 17:5

5And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

Now, when Christ was raised up to enter into this Glory, all for whom He represented also was raised up together with Him and also made to sit together with Him in heavenly Places Eph 2:6

6And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

In this connection, lets look at Col 3:

1If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.

2Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.

3For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.

I made this connection because its vital to the point I am making about those Christ died and rose in behalf of, were raised up with Him above where He sits at the right hand of God, and so do they.

Now in this connection, we should more clearly understand Christ words to Nicodemus John 3:3

3Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

This word born again is actually being born from above, so it can be read " Except a man be born from above, he cannot see or perceive the Kingdom of God.

Lets look at at a few other translations of this verse !

ISV Jesus replied to him, "Truly, I tell you with certainty, unless a person is born from above he cannot see the kingdom of God."

GWT Jesus replied to Nicodemus, "I can guarantee this truth: No one can see the kingdom of God without being born from above."

YLT Jesus answered and said to him, 'Verily, verily, I say to thee, If any one may not be born from above, he is not able to see the reign of God;'


Its referring to a New Birth from above !

ESV Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born anew, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

In other words, unless one is born again anew out from above, where Christ and they in Him sit at the Right Hand of God, they cannot see the Kingdom of God.

Yes, to make it plain, only those Glorified together with Christ [Rom 8:30] are being born again anew, being born again requires having been raised up together with Christ at His resurrection and being seated at the Right Hand of God in Heavenly Places Eph 2:

6And hath raised us up together[Glorified], and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

Now, if God Loved all without exception, then all them He Loved have been Glorified together with Him and will be born again from above.

Those of you who insist that God Loved all without exception, are insisting [ though unwittingly] that all without exception shall be born from above where they sit with Christ on God's Right hand, there is no way around it.

But the truly enlightened know better, we know that all without exception were not raised up together with Christ and shall not be born anew from above, and so we rightly conclude, that God did not Love all men without exception ! 2

 

[brightfame52]

Jn 3:16 Love

John 3:16

16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

The World that God so Loved here in this text, has to be a world Chosen in Christ, and had to have a previous Union with Him or Else, there is another Love of God besides that which He has that is in Christ Jesus Per Rom 8:38-39

38For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,

39Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

God has no Love for any who He does not consider in Christ Jesus. Now Does He consider all without exception in Christ Jesus ? What about the devil and his children, the children of the wicked one as per Matt 13:38

38The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;

Are they in that world that God so Loved in Christ Jesus ? 2

 

[Josheb]

He did love them, but, when you go there, it is only in saying that He can't/doesn't hate the work of His hands. It is corporal, not individual. The problem is people want to take this corporal love and say it is individual. Have you considered why the evil prosper? God hated Esau, but Esau is clear when he said he had been blessed. He had more than he needed. Who gave it to him? Who provided it all to him? Could this not be seen as mercy while alive prior to what comes next? He still hates them individually, or collected together and grouped under "workers of iniquity", but as the works of His hands, there is love and mercy. Until they die, after which God judges and punishes them without hesitation.

Esau was blessed. That does not mean he was not also hated. Jesus spoke about this when he juxtaposed the disciples' rejoining over persecution against the comfort the rich have received here on earth.

Luke 6:20-26
And turning His gaze toward His disciples, He began to say, "Blessed are you who are poor, for yours is the kingdom of God. Blessed are you who hunger now, for you shall be satisfied. Blessed are you who weep now, for you shall laugh. Blessed are you when men hate you, and ostracize you, and insult you, and scorn your name as evil, for the sake of the Son of Man. Be glad in that day and leap for joy, for behold, your reward is great in heaven. For in the same way their fathers used to treat the prophets. But woe to you who are rich, for you are receiving your comfort in full. Woe to you who are well-fed now, for you shall be hungry. Woe to you who laugh now, for you shall mourn and weep. Woe to you when all men speak well of you, for their fathers used to treat the false prophets in the same way.

Esau would be an example of someone who was blessed with wealth of the world but not of heavenly treasure. The same applies to the rich man in the parable about he and Lazarus.

Luke 16:22-25
Now the poor man died and was carried away by the angels to Abraham's bosom; and the rich man also died and was buried. In Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and saw Abraham far away and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried out and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus so that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool off my tongue, for I am in agony in this flame.' But Abraham said, 'Child, remember that during your life you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus bad things; but now he is being comforted here, and you are in agony.

Pharoah was among the richest men in the world, but he had no inheritance in heaven. Dissenting Christians like to appeal to his hardening of his heart but there's nothing in scripture stating his eternal disposition would have been any different had he let the Hebrews go when asked the first time. In order for his eternity to change he'd have had to leave Egypt and come to the promised land. Yes, perhaps he could have brought his wealth (the Hebrews brought it ), but it wouldn't have been the wealth he received by God's blessing that indicated a love relationship with God. Like Esau, the rich man received good things while on earth, but his wealth had no correlation to God's love when it comes to salvation from sin and wrath. One's relative wealth is irrelevant. What does it profit a person to gain the entire world but lose their soul? (Mt. 16:26) We were all once objects of wrath. We all previously lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath (Eph. 2:3), just like Esau, Pharoah, and the rich man. The difference is Jesus, not us.


Now, having said that, I assert the premise God loves in diverse ways and not all mentions of love should be treated synonymously. God loving a person who has disobeyed Him (sin) by letting them continue to live when He could speak them into instantaneous non-existence and erase all memory of their ever having lived is a loving act. 1 Corinthians 13:4-7 is one definition of love. Love is patient, kind, forbearing, hopeful, trusting. God was certainly kind, patient, and forbearing with Esau, Pharoah, and the rich man when He needn't have been. To that degree and in those ways, God loved them. Another attribute of love is not keeping a record of wrongdoing. It's a particularly curious claim since it has been apportioned to humanity to live once and then face judgement. We know that judgment will entail our accounting for every vain act performed and vain word ever spoken. How can God do that if He hasn't kept a record of those things? The seeming contradiction lies in the truth he discards the sins of the redeemed into the depths of the ocean never to be remembered again. He loves those people in a way different from those whose wrongs are remembered. The wrongdoer (whether rich or poor) was blessed while on earth but that blessing has nothing to do with the love of an eternal disposition.

I'm talking about two types of love.

I wouldn't call it two different types or kinds of love but love of different degrees or various attributes. It is true the Greek has several different words for love and it is common to think of them as different types, but I think that incorrect. An agape love contains all the other forms of Greek love when it is fullest. An agape love lacking brotherly affection is not a different kind of love, it is an incomplete kind of love. The word "love" is simply a word we use to communicate value. To say to someone, "I love you," is to say, "I value you in a very unique and special way." Sometimes we misuse the word, such as when we say, "I love chocolate ice cream." The value we have for chocolate ice cream is, indeed, substantively different than the value we have for our dog, our child, or our spouse. To say we value our dog is not a different kind of value but a different degree of value than that we have for our child or spouse.

Keep in mind love is almost always operationalized in scripture. The Bible does not often speak of love as a warm "oogy" sensation in our body, or even as an emotion. It speaks most often - overwhelmingly - as a thing we do. We are patient, we are kind, we are forbearing, etc. So when scripture says, "God loved X ," it simply means He was kinder to X than he was to Y, more patient with X than He was with Y, less provoking with X than Y. It's also important to remember hate is not the opposite or antithesis of love. Apathy is the antithesis of love. Hate is still an investment, and emotional, cognitive, and behavioral investment. So, when scripture discloses God's hate it implicitly means He had some regrade of some kind and some degree. It would be an entirely different matter if scripture said "Jacob I loved but with Esau I was apathetic."



And not to put a damper on the conversation..... but the fact that everyone here has a computer and their brain and eyes and hands work well enough to type into this internet forum means we've been blessed already and blessed with a wealth exceedingly greater than 60 or 70% of the world. We could be living in Mozambique, Ukraine, or South Sudan (might want to take a moment and thank God He saw fit to love us this way).

Just saying

 

[brightfame52]

Eternal Love for the Reprobate !

John 17:23-24

20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

21That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:

23I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

24Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.

If God Loved all men without exception, this implies that all men without exception were in a Eternal Union with Christ before the foundation of the world.

This would also mean that the children of the wicked one, the tares as described here Matt 13:38

The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;

That they were Eternally Loved and in Union with Christ before the foundation of the world. Such thinking is utter madness and blasphemous.

Its to say that God so Loved the children of devil as He Loved Christ ! 2

 

[TMSO]

You've done an excellent job dealing with something that most Reformed/Calvinists don't know how to express —the difference in God's love for the two groups, though I would be careful to object to the notion that his love for the unsaved is "impersonal". But I understand and appreciate why you put it that way, and I don't know how I could do any better. But I think it would be good to say that "this is a way to look at it, for the sake of understanding/demonstrating the difference." What you say does explain some of the problems that self-deterministic minds object to, but, (and I think you would agree), it is a long way from giving the whole story. It is a construction that works, and helps to think, but it is only that, no?

It is a way of understanding how God is love, yet not all are saved. The love of the Creator for the work of His hands, and the love of those He calls his adopted children. The love of a Father for His child.

 

[TMSO]

@TMSO



Well guess what ? I believe I did, which makes it appear you dont understand Gods Love.

So let's see if I got this. God absolutely hates/abhores the work of His own hands. He can't believe He messed up so badly when creating humanity. He can't stand to look at some of them, but...ooh, some look okay. I guess He can love them, as He throws everyone down to the Earth hoping the fall kills them. Does that sound about right? And then people starve because God absolutely hates them, just as Jesus didn't say when He didn't say that God doesn't care/love birds or the lilies of the field which are made by His hands, so of course He hates you. Does that sound about right? God is hate, but loves those He decided to love, which is why the Bible never says God is hate, right? God is love. Yes, He is so completely capable of hate and anger. We see that in the global flood where what was happening on Earth outstripped God's love/patience for humanity. No more mercy. No more letting things just be, and letting humanity reach their end naturally.

God loves all humanity with such a love that He gave His only begotten Son to save those believing in Him. If God did not love humanity, why would He send His Son in the first place? I mean, it is one thing to sacrifice some powers, or rights, but we are talking about His only begotten Son. Do you really believe that you and you alone are worth that? Maybe a few million people out of a eight billion are worth the sacrifice of His only Son? That isn't what John 3:16 says. It says that for the love of all humanity God sent His only begotten Son to save some, not all. However, the price to have Him send His only begotten Son was His love for the whole world. He can't/won't save all, but for the love of what He created, He sacrificed His only Son to save some.

Let's say you are on a boat with a few hundred people with your hypothetical son. Could you give up your son to save only one of them, when you hate them all? Could you, as a human, do that for one person? I mean, perhaps for a few hundred you may prick his finger with a needle. But to sacrifice his life? Now, let's say there are 10 billion people, and you care for them all and want them to live. Could you sacrifice your son to save some of them? That is the question you have to consider when considering God's love. He loved the whole world with the love a Creator has for what He has created so much, He sent His Son to save SOME of them. Yet, they say He could save them all. Now you get to the individual level. Now you can see why God's hate is different. Esau hadn't done anything, hadn't even been born yet, but God chose to "hate" him. Jacob hadn't done anything, hadn't even been born yet, but God chose to "love" him. So God isn't looking through the crowd of billions, considering what they will do, or what they will become. He just looks and goes, "You know, I feel like saving that guy." He chose, according to Ephesians 1, according to the good pleasure of His will. I can't think of a crazier way to wordsmith "He felt like it", then to say "according to the good pleasure of His will." That is what Hebrews is saying when it speaks of Jacob and Esau as it does. It reflects God's election in that he did not choose between Jacob and Esau for any other reason then He felt like it.

 

[brightfame52]

Heb 12:6-10

Heb 12:6-10

6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.

7If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?

8But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.

9Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

10For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness.

Since the writer seems to indicate that some can be without chastisement, of which all them that God Loveth [see Rev 3:19] receives, then its reasonable to conclude that those who be without it, The Lord did not Love, and they are bastards as scripture says, and not son's [This destroys the ungodly concept that all mankind are the son's of God] For if all were sons of God, this inspired statement by the writer of Hebrews is a lie.

Jesus says in Rev 3:19 " as many as He Loves" He Chastens ! Why if He loved all mankind without exception, then His statement " as many as " is misleading and tends to deceive, why even say it that way Lord Jesus, if you Love all mankind without exception.

The phrase " as many as" is a idiom denoting a part as distinct from the whole ! Dividing something into parts.

It can denote a large number, but not all. One can be told to take as many as you like, but that does not mean to take all.

So this very Phrase, As Many as I Love, denotes that Christ does not Love all mankind without exception ! 3

 

[brightfame52]

So let's see if I got this. God absolutely hates/abhores the work of His own hands. He can't believe He messed up so badly when creating humanity. He can't stand to look at some of them, but...ooh, some look okay. I guess He can love them, as He throws everyone down to the Earth hoping the fall kills them. Does that sound about right? And then people starve because God absolutely hates them, just as Jesus didn't say when He didn't say that God doesn't care/love birds or the lilies of the field which are made by His hands, so of course He hates you. Does that sound about right? God is hate, but loves those He decided to love, which is why the Bible never says God is hate, right? God is love. Yes, He is so completely capable of hate and anger. We see that in the global flood where what was happening on Earth outstripped God's love/patience for humanity. No more mercy. No more letting things just be, and letting humanity reach their end naturally.

God loves all humanity with such a love that He gave His only begotten Son to save those believing in Him. If God did not love humanity, why would He send His Son in the first place? I mean, it is one thing to sacrifice some powers, or rights, but we are talking about His only begotten Son. Do you really believe that you and you alone are worth that? Maybe a few million people out of a eight billion are worth the sacrifice of His only Son? That isn't what John 3:16 says. It says that for the love of all humanity God sent His only begotten Son to save some, not all. However, the price to have Him send His only begotten Son was His love for the whole world. He can't/won't save all, but for the love of what He created, He sacrificed His only Son to save some.

Let's say you are on a boat with a few hundred people with your hypothetical son. Could you give up your son to save only one of them, when you hate them all? Could you, as a human, do that for one person? I mean, perhaps for a few hundred you may prick his finger with a needle. But to sacrifice his life? Now, let's say there are 10 billion people, and you care for them all and want them to live. Could you sacrifice your son to save some of them? That is the question you have to consider when considering God's love. He loved the whole world with the love a Creator has for what He has created so much, He sent His Son to save SOME of them. Yet, they say He could save them all. Now you get to the individual level. Now you can see why God's hate is different. Esau hadn't done anything, hadn't even been born yet, but God chose to "hate" him. Jacob hadn't done anything, hadn't even been born yet, but God chose to "love" him. So God isn't looking through the crowd of billions, considering what they will do, or what they will become. He just looks and goes, "You know, I feel like saving that guy." He chose, according to Ephesians 1, according to the good pleasure of His will. I can't think of a crazier way to wordsmith "He felt like it", then to say "according to the good pleasure of His will." That is what Hebrews is saying when it speaks of Jacob and Esau as it does. It reflects God's election in that he did not choose between Jacob and Esau for any other reason then He felt like it.

All I see here is résistance to the truth I have been sharing

 

[brightfame52]

His Great Love quickens the Dead !

I know that God does not Love everyone without exception because everyone without exception is not and will not be quickened because of His Great Love. Eph 2:4-5

4But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,

5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved )

God performed this deed for those He Loved while they were dead in sins. Not when they repented or when they came in Faith, but even while dead. In fact coming in repentance and faith are direct results of having been quickened or made alive.

The psalmist wrote once this Ps 80:18

18So will not we go back from thee: quicken us, and we will call upon thy name.

The calling upon the name of the Lord follows the quickening..

God's Love to those He Loves is not just a mere emotion, but it is also application. God's Love gives Life [spiritual] to dead sinners.

This was Illustrated with Jesus and the story of Lazarus See Jn 11:3,36

Lazarus was one for scripture says Jesus loved " behold, how He loved him"

Christ love was demonstrated by quickening Lazarus from the dead.

God nor Christ's Love could be of no lesser degree of that which they command of their followers. 1 Jn 3:16-18

16Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.

17But whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him?

18My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.

Let us Love in deed. The word deed is the same word in the greek for work, its the word ergon and it means doing !

James using the almost same identical situation adds this James 2:15


15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,

16And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?

Does not God's Love give those He Loves what is needful for their souls.

God's Love gives those He loves, and sees them dead in trespasses and sins, He is moved with compassion and gives them life from the dead. Love expresses itself in deed to the brethren.

Now are not those Christ died for considered His brethren ? Heb 2:11,17

11For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,


17Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

Where they not His Brethren before they believed in Him ? Yes they were, thats why He was made like unto them to deliver them from their spiritual ruin and enmity against God.

Was He not the Firstborn of many Brethren who had not yet been born sinners ? Rom 8:29

29For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

If Christ sees one of His Brethren dead in trespasses and sins, and He has all Power in His Hands, will He suffer His Brethren, whom for sure He Loves, to remain helpless in that dead state ? Cannot and will He not quicken whomsoever He wills? Jn 5:21

21For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will. Certainly He will s to quicken those He Loves, He laid His life down for them. Jn 15:13

Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.

Scripture says that He died for them while they were yet enemies, and in spite of that, by His death He reconciled them to God, and those so reconciled [even while dead in sin and enemies] Shall be saved[Experientially] by His Life. That says it all. Rom 5:10

It can read Shall be quickened by His Life, made alive. So, those who die in their sins, dead to God, alienated from Him, God did not Love them, nor did Christ Love them and Lay down His Life for them, if He did ,He would have quickened them, made them alive, saved them. Eph 2:5

5Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved) 3

Ye see that ? The quickening results in being saved by Grace.

 

[brightfame52]

Jer 31:3


Jer 31:3

3The LORD hath appeared of old unto me, saying, Yea, I have loved thee with an everlasting love: therefore with lovingkindness have I drawn thee.

Those whom God Loves He Loves them with an everlasting Love, centered in Jesus Christ whom He Loved with an Everlasting Love Jn 17:23-24

23I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

24Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.

For God could never tell any Being He Loved them with an everlasting Love apart from Christ Rom 8:39

39Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

And since this True, He draws all so Loved to Himself. He does this by putting His Spirit in them.

The word lovingkindness is the word checed and can mean Faithfulness or mercy. Its translated mercy 149 times in the OT

The word drawn denotes the efficaciousness of His Grace.

This refers to the Church, which at that time was mostly confined to the jews, and this Love and Faithfulness is due to the Everlasting Covenant or the New Covenant. Later in the same Chapter we have this : Jer 31:31-34

31Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

32Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:

33But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

34And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

The Fruit and Effect of God's Love will always draw individuals to Christ, to find their Life in Him , which Life they had in Him as His Seed, being Chosen in Him before the foundation. 3

 

[TMSO]

All I see here is résistance to the truth I have been sharing

All I see is a the all out belief that God hates the work of His hands.

 

[brightfame52]

God is Love !


1 Jn 4:8

He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.

God is Love has been one of the Truth's that false religion has used to deny other Truth's about God, like for instance, what the bible sets forth as God's main Attribute, and That is God is Holy !

Ps 99:9

Exalt the LORD our God, and worship at his holy hill; for the LORD our God is holy.

Isa 5:16

But the LORD of hosts shall be exalted in judgment, and God that is holy shall be sanctified in righteousness.

Isa 43:3

For I am the LORD thy God, the Holy One of Israel, thy Saviour

This attribute so describes God that Isa says Thrice of Him Isa 6:3

3And one cried unto another, and said, Holy, holy, holy, is the LORD of hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory.

Never do we read in scripture Love,Love, Love is the Lord of Hosts !

So God's Love is and must be a Holy Love, a Love that arises from His Holiness, a Love directed by His Holiness and Justice for sin and evil which He hates. God cannot and will not Love anyone or anything He views as Unholy, because He hates evil and is of purer eyes to behold it favorably Hab 1:13

Thou art of purer eyes than to behold evil, and canst not look on iniquity: wherefore lookest thou upon them that deal treacherously, and holdest thy tongue when the wicked devoureth the man that is more righteous than he?

God hates evil which is to include wicked people or persons as individuals Ps 5:5

5The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.

God hates the foolish, that is such as have not had Christ made unto them wisdom 1 Cor 1:30

30But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption

God has left them in their own foolish wisdom which is devilish James 2:14-15

14But if ye have bitter envying and strife in your hearts, glory not, and lie not against the truth.

15This wisdom descendeth not from above, but is earthly, sensual, devilish.

They also are the workers of iniquity, emphasis on the individuals WORKERS of Iniquity, God hates them, because they are outside of God's Elective Purpose in Christ whereby their sins are not covered Ps 32:1-2

1Blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven, whose sin is covered.

2Blessed is the man unto whom the LORD imputeth not iniquity, and in whose spirit there is no guile.

They are not blessed of God and God charges their iniquities unto them, so they are justly called workers of iniquity, in contrast to those blessed in Election, and whom God will not impute iniquity to their Charge.

God hates any and all whom He did not Love and Choose in Christ before the world began. Eph 1:4-5; Rom 8:39 Only those sinners God Loved in Christ are Loved by God Rom 8:39

39Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

In the original the definite article precedes Love of God It is the only Love God has, its anchored in Christ Jesus our Lord. All those Chosen in Him before the world began are Loved by God 2 Tim 1:9


9Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

These, though sinners by nature, are still viewed by God as Holy and without Blame before Him in Love Eph 1:4

4According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

They are already Holy and without blame positionally and legally,but God is fulfilling His purpose through Jesus Christ that they will also be that way experientially !

And thats why God can Love them as sinners, because He views them in Christ Jesus.

This however is in total contrast to those sinners He did not choose in Christ, did not Love in Christ, these be the ones He hates Ps 5:5. So God is Love to those He sent Christ into the world to be a propitiation for their sins 1 Jn 4:10

Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.

If Christ was the propitiation for their sins, then they would not be viewed by God as workers of iniquity, who obviously have their sins charged to them, for God does not charge sin to those He loved, but charged it upon their Saviour Substitute Isa 53:6

6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

That cannot include those who God calls the workers of iniquity Ps 5:5

These God has not been propitiated for by Christ, which if God Loved them, would have been ! 3

So God is Love, but only and exclusively in Christ Jesus our Lord !

 

[TMSO]

God is Love !


1 Jn 4:8

He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.

God is Love has been one of the Truth's that false religion has used to deny other Truth's about God, like for instance, what the bible sets forth as God's main Attribute, and That is God is Holy !

Ps 99:9

Exalt the LORD our God, and worship at his holy hill; for the LORD our God is holy.

Isa 5:16

But the LORD of hosts shall be exalted in judgment, and God that is holy shall be sanctified in righteousness.

Isa 43:3

For I am the LORD thy God, the Holy One of Israel, thy Saviour

This attribute so describes God that Isa says Thrice of Him Isa 6:3

3And one cried unto another, and said, Holy, holy, holy, is the LORD of hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory.

Never do we read in scripture Love,Love, Love is the Lord of Hosts !

So God's Love is and must be a Holy Love, a Love that arises from His Holiness, a Love directed by His Holiness and Justice for sin and evil which He hates. God cannot and will not Love anyone or anything He views as Unholy, because He hates evil and is of purer eyes to behold it favorably Hab 1:13

Thou art of purer eyes than to behold evil, and canst not look on iniquity: wherefore lookest thou upon them that deal treacherously, and holdest thy tongue when the wicked devoureth the man that is more righteous than he?

God hates evil which is to include wicked people or persons as individuals Ps 5:5

5The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.

God hates the foolish, that is such as have not had Christ made unto them wisdom 1 Cor 1:30

30But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption

God has left them in their own foolish wisdom which is devilish James 2:14-15

14But if ye have bitter envying and strife in your hearts, glory not, and lie not against the truth.

15This wisdom descendeth not from above, but is earthly, sensual, devilish.

They also are the workers of iniquity, emphasis on the individuals WORKERS of Iniquity, God hates them, because they are outside of God's Elective Purpose in Christ whereby their sins are not covered Ps 32:1-2

1Blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven, whose sin is covered.

2Blessed is the man unto whom the LORD imputeth not iniquity, and in whose spirit there is no guile.

They are not blessed of God and God charges their iniquities unto them, so they are justly called workers of iniquity, in contrast to those blessed in Election, and whom God will not impute iniquity to their Charge.

God hates any and all whom He did not Love and Choose in Christ before the world began. Eph 1:4-5; Rom 8:39 Only those sinners God Loved in Christ are Loved by God Rom 8:39

39Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

In the original the definite article precedes Love of God It is the only Love God has, its anchored in Christ Jesus our Lord. All those Chosen in Him before the world began are Loved by God 2 Tim 1:9


9Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

These, though sinners by nature, are still viewed by God as Holy and without Blame before Him in Love Eph 1:4

4According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

They are already Holy and without blame positionally and legally,but God is fulfilling His purpose through Jesus Christ that they will also be that way experientially !

And thats why God can Love them as sinners, because He views them in Christ Jesus.

This however is in total contrast to those sinners He did not choose in Christ, did not Love in Christ, these be the ones He hates Ps 5:5. So God is Love to those He sent Christ into the world to be a propitiation for their sins 1 Jn 4:10

Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.

If Christ was the propitiation for their sins, then they would not be viewed by God as workers of iniquity, who obviously have their sins charged to them, for God does not charge sin to those He loved, but charged it upon their Saviour Substitute Isa 53:6

6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

That cannot include those who God calls the workers of iniquity Ps 5:5

These God has not been propitiated for by Christ, which if God Loved them, would have been ! 3

So God is Love, but only and exclusively in Christ Jesus our Lord !

Workers of iniquity are sinners. We are all sinners, Romans is clear. For all have sinned. For all have worked iniquity. That means God hated everyone, so John 3:16 is out of place, since it says God so loved the world. What you aren't understanding is the "so loved the world" is God's universal love for humanity. We are all loved as a creation of the Creator, the work of God's hands, or what I said above is what you believe. God hates the work of His hands, since all humanity is the work of His hands, according to David. God formed him in the womb, as He does for all of us.

God loves humanity. He told us so. He hates sin. He "hates" those who are not chosen to be His children. That hate is not defined as we define hate. Just as the love is not defined how you define love. Remember, Jesus told you that if you don't hate your mother, father, wife, brother, sister, even yourself, you are not worthy. Apparently you are willing to define this properly, but not everything else.

God loves humanity as a group. It does not break down to the individual. It is humanity as a corporate entity. Because God loved humanity He sent His Son to save those who are believing in Him. If God hated humanity as a whole, He would have never chosen any of humanity to be His children at an individual level. Why not? If you look at their status, human is listed, and if God hated humanity, He can't choose to love any of it. The explicit deny. If God loves humanity, at the individual level, God can hate.

Consider it one of those, I love you, but I hate it/you when you do this or that. God's love for humanity as a corporate entity is why Eve didn't miscarry every single time, or at all. God's love for humanity is why God told Eve that He would save anyone at all. Before God were the only two humans in existence, and based on scripture given above, God hated them both. Why would He bother redeeming them in His hatred?

 

[brightfame52]

The Time of Love !


Ezk 16:6-8

6And when I passed by thee, and saw thee polluted in thine own blood, I said unto thee when thou wast in thy blood, Live; yea, I said unto thee when thou wast in thy blood, Live.

7I have caused thee to multiply as the bud of the field, and thou hast increased and waxen great, and thou art come to excellent ornaments: thy breasts are fashioned, and thine hair is grown, whereas thou wast naked and bare.

8Now when I passed by thee, and looked upon thee, behold, thy time was the time of love; and I spread my skirt over thee, and covered thy nakedness: yea, I sware unto thee, and entered into a covenant with thee, saith the Lord GOD, and thou becamest mine.

All whom God Loves, He Loves in Christ Jesus Rom 8:39

39Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

And because of this Love, He sent Him into the world that we might live through Him. 1 Jn 4:9

In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.

There comes a time of Love for each one of us when God says Live. Thats because we were dead in our Trespasses and Sins Eph 2:1; Col 2:13, because of God's Great Love with which He Loved us, He made us Alive ! Eph 2:4-5

4But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,

5Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved )

God says to us if Christ died for us, Live ! Its your time of Love ! That is what God's Love accomplished through Christ Jesus our Lord. Through His Covenant Blood, the Blood of the Covenant Zech 9:11

As for thee also, by the blood of thy covenant I have sent forth thy prisoners out of the pit wherein is no water.

All for whom God Loved in Christ, shall be made to Live, and that everlastingly. None who will perish in their sins, was Loved by God ! 3

 

[brightfame52]

@TMSO

Workers of iniquity are sinners.

You dont say !They are sinners God hates Ps 5:5 God doesnt hate all sinners, some He loved Rom 5:8

8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

Not the same sinners obviously

 

[brightfame52]

The Love of God which is in Christ Jesus Our Lord !

Rom 8:39

39Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Those who are not of the Elect, are those who are hated as Esau [Rom 9:13], they are alienated from God's Love and always will be , that is why they shall have their portion in the Lake of Fire, or as Jesus states, the Damnation of Hell Matt 23:33

Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?

Hell was made especially for them ! and they were made especially for hell..

Now These men here Jesus was speaking to, could not be those whom God Loved in Christ Jesus, stating that they cannot escape the damnation of Hell.

Also, If God's Love is in Christ Jesus, then how is it possible to be Loved of God as per Jn 3:16 without being Chosen in Christ before the foundation of the World ?3

 

[Mr GLee]

Workers of iniquity are sinners. We are all sinners, Romans is clear. For all have sinned. For all have worked iniquity. That means God hated everyone, so John 3:16 is out of place, since it says God so loved the world.

I would offer..

Workers of iniquity are those not sent or not called of Christ They say do not add to the living words of God but. . . do not do obey and do add making the word of God to no efect. Can't server two masters as one Lord . .

Like Aarons two son they in order to personize (2 seconds of false fame) as false apostles sent with false prophecy (I did it it proves )they added strange fire, oral traditions from the father of lies. His only lying voice. .

The fire consumed them not a hint of smoke on the ceremonial attire. That attire was needed to demonstrate and show God's love to all the nations .

The ceremonies (shadows of things to come) were never designed to represent the flesh of any nation. They were as today a sign to the unbelieving world . As living temples, Christ in us working with. . We can declare the gospel to the world . . . . . . . all nations

The many false apostle false prophets that add to the living world with oral traditons of dying mankind

Mathew 7: 22-23 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity

Its how he loved whom he called . . . as many that did come where empowered by his labor of love or work of his faith "Let there be" a good welcoming testimony. marvel not but rather "believe"

John1:12 CEB But those who did welcome him, those who believed in his name, he authorized to become God’s children,

In that way God who is not served by the hands as a will of dying mankind .

He can send a unbeliever with his gospel as easily as one that does rely on his living word .