The Greatest Lie Of Them All

[Eleanor]

You will need to start reading the whole bible and learn of God's dealing with his people and the breakup of Israel in to two Houses during the time of King Solomon. Israel in the most part are in their own lands today but were scattered among the Gentiles before that. Even though most of the House of Israel are Christians' they do not know their tribal identity and think they are Gentiles converted to Christianity. Yes, many sheep thinking that they were goats and still act and think like goats!

And you know this, how?

So who was cut off the olive tree (Ro 11)?

 

[SeventhDay]

Sounds as though you're preaching Universalism ("We'll ALL get there in the end). I disagree.

It is God who calls the lost to himself and there are no exceptions.

Joh 12:31 Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.

Joh 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

How many are not grateful and despise the Lord that bought them teaching dimmable doctrines and denying the Lord that saved them.

Many need to repent and let go of the lies that they have been taught but they have no love for the truth!

2Th 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

2Th 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

2Th 2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

This is referring to apostate Christianity and this has been going on for many centuries starting even during the time of the apostles while they were still living.

1Jn 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

1Jn 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

Act 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

Act 20:29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.

Act 20:30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.

Act 20:31 Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears.

God bless you.

 

[SeventhDay]

And you know this, how?

So who was cut off the olive tree (Ro 11)?

Both houses of Israel!

 

[makesends]

Is Jesus the only savior?
Are all people included?

Vague question. "Included" in what, and in what way?

Jesus is the only savior from sin. That fact applies to absolutely everyone —there is no other savior for any of them.

 

[Josheb]

How much time should one spend arguing with another as to whether or not the world is flat (as opposed to a sphere) ????

Given your answer to the first question ... how is arguing with someone over universaliam worth more effort???

*yawns*

I'll agree there are limits (I tend to lean toward the "three-strikes" rule) but sometimes the topic is important to belabor so any uninformed lurkers aren't swayed by seemingly rational arguments based on a very selective use of scripture.

 

[Josheb]

When people are called out of the world unto God they become sheep. Before that they are goats!

Scripture?

I thought you were done with me.

 

[Josheb]

Building is form, not substance.

Got scripture for that?

Both the form and the substance of the building is gone if and when it becomes ash. The building has ceased to exist in both form and substance. The observation it has become ash confirms it.

Annihilation is about substance, not form.

I disagree and view that statement as a reflection of not adequately understanding scripture and annihilationism.


So.....


Let me encourage you not to make brief sweeping statements without any evidence (baseless). It's not good form and lacks substance .

 

[Josheb]

The KJV does not have a problem...

Yes, it does, and the reasons evidencing the problems within the KJV in that text were provided so that EVERYONE could objectively verify them.

 

[Eleanor]

Got scripture for that?

Got scripture for atoms and molecules?

Both the form and the substance of the building is gone if and when it becomes ash. The building has ceased to exist in both form and substance. The observation it has become ash confirms it.

Ash is its substance.

I disagree and view that statement as a reflection of not adequately understanding scripture and annihilationism.

Matter is neither created nor destroyed.

I know the meaning of annihilationism, and annihilationism is not presented in Scripture.

 

[Josheb]

Got scripture for atoms and molecules?

You first. You do not get to change the subject or the onus away from your own comments in an attempt to make me answer your questions when the same courtesy (or parity) was not provided.

Ash is its substance.

No, ash is ash's substance. If the ash were examined, it might be possible to determine what kind of stone had previously existed but there is no way to know that a building ever existed. The building no longer exists in form or substance. In many cases fire can be so extreme in temperature that even ash is destroyed. Fundamentally, what you have attempted to leverage is the principle of conservation. The principle says nothing is every truly lost in a closed system. Material objects can be changed into other conditions, such as heat and ash. In the case of a common fire in which weeds or chaff is thrown into a fire the weed or the chaff is destroyed, its material condition changed into heat and ash, but under extreme condition there wouldn't even be ash.

The fiery lake fire is so extreme it kills hades and death. They cease to exist. There's no report of "hades ash" or "ashes of death" lying around. The attempt to assert the building changing from building to ash fails. It fails logically and it fails scripturally.

Matter is neither created nor destroyed.

That is true for a closed system. You have not proven eternity is a closed system. If you are going to go that route, then remember you do not get to shift the onus onto me. You must evidence and then prove from that evidence eternity is a closed system where matter/energy cannot be eradicated. That will run into a variety of problems beginning with the fact such an argument would mean there are things other than God that are eternal. You'll have to address how that which is created can never be uncreated and how that, in turn, does not limit God's omni-attributes (if He cannot eradicate something then He is no all-powerful).

I am open to the premise. I'll entertain the case and examine it but the obligation is on you to make that case and make it convincing.

I know the meaning of annihilationism,

That is not evident in these posts.

and annihilationism is not presented in Scripture.

I disagree.

Weeds and chaff thrown into a fire cease to be weeds and chaff. Even in cases where ash remains (and it has yet to be shown ash exists with the judgment of unrepentant sinners not covered in the shed blood of Christ). Trash that rots and decays eventually decays into nothing. It may take a long, protracted period of time, but the end result is still the cessation of existence. Similarly, a fiery lake so deadly that even death is destroyed leaves only two options: either death isn't literally destroyed, and death is around in the renewed and restored new heavens and earth or death no longer exists. This is very foundational and fundamental to everything we believe as Christians because if there is no end of sin, then sin also remains. That is a very different looking restoration than one in which death and sin no longer exist. In the case of humans, there are no spiritless humans in the Bible. There are no soulless humans in the Bible. There are no bodiless spirits and no bodiless souls in the Bible. To lose any one of those constituent elements is to lose the whole; the human being ceases to be a human being. S/he ceases being.

It is presented in scripture. All over the place, from beginning to end.

And since YOU are the one claiming the form of the building persists, and does so apart from its substance, the onus is on you to prove that premise and to prove it relevant to eternal salvation versus judgement. Or, the weakness of the analogy could be acknowledged (save us both some time ).

 

[Josheb]

For those with an interest:


Four Views on Hell

Four Views on Hell

Two different books with the same title providing differing views, each examined and critiqued by those in dissent.

 

[Eleanor]

You first. You do not get to change the subject or the onus away from your own comments in an attempt to make me answer your questions when the same courtesy (or parity) was not provided.

A change of "subject" is not a change of the principle under discussion.

And since YOU are the one claiming the form of the building persists, and does so apart from its substance, the onus is on you to prove that premise and to prove it relevant to eternal salvation versus judgement. Or, the weakness of the analogy could be acknowledged (save us both some time ).

And therein is one of your problems, read it again.

 

[SeventhDay]

Scripture?

I thought you were done with me.

Does God call his people sheep whom he calls them to himself? Yes or no?

 

[SeventhDay]

I'll agree there are limits (I tend to lean toward the "three-strikes" rule) but sometimes the topic is important to belabor so any uninformed lurkers aren't swayed by seemingly rational arguments based on a very selective use of scripture.

Seeming rational arguments! Just read and understand the scriptures with the understanding the Holy Spirit. gives you.

 

[makesends]

Does God call his people sheep whom he calls them to himself? Yes or no?

Does God his people sheep whom he predestines to salvation? Yes or no?

 

[Josheb]

.

Destruction is not annihilation, cessation of existence. When a building is destroyed, its ashes remain.

The building does not. It is gone. It has ceased to exist. By acknowledging it is destroyed to ashes, a form and substance different from what it had been the cessation of existence is implicitly asserted. Ash is not the building's substance. The claim is complete nonsense.

Building is form, not substance. Annihilation is about substance, not form

Got scripture for that? Both the form and the substance of the building is gone if and when it becomes ash. The building has ceased to exist in both form and substance. The observation it has become ash confirms it. I view the statements view that statement as a reflection of not adequately understanding scripture and annihilationism.

A change of "subject" is not a change of the principle under discussion. And therein is one of your problems, read it again.

I'm sure that makes sense to someone but change of topic has just been implicitly acknowledged, it is in fact a change of "principle," (which is your claims), and I still do not read any scriptural evidence for the claim made. I did ask.

Last chance.

 

[Josheb]

Does God call his people sheep whom he calls them to himself? Yes or no?

You don't get to change the onus or the specific point being discussed until you do your part. You first answer the question(s) put to you and then I'll answer your inquiries and address whatever op-relevant points are made.

Seeming rational arguments!

Yes, you should stop making seemingly rational arguments and make actually rational arguments.

Just read and understand the scriptures with the understanding the Holy Spirit. gives you.

I have, did, and will. And I will do so with whole scripture in mind, not the bias-confirming selective use employed in this op that poses as reason.

• Is this op asserting universalism?
• Death and Hades are destroyed (so "all" does not mean all). Can I be shown scripture stating death and Hades are reconciled to God?
• Can I be shown scripture that states everyone is a goat until they are called out of the world, at which time they become sheep?

This is all that has been asked of you (so far). The first question should have been answered, answered when asked, answered directly and concisely, op-relevantly, and moved the discussion forward. Still waiting. The second question should have been answered directly and concisely when asked, moving the discussion forward. The third question should have been answered when asked, directly and concisely, moving the discussion forward. There is nothing rational about avoiding these questions. There is nothing rational about an argument that cannot answer these questions. You do not get to change the subject and put the onus on others when failing to take responsibility for claims made (are you paying attention @Eleanor?) Answer the questions asked when asked. Provide scripture wherever possible and where not possible then come right out and say, "I have no scriptural support for that claim." I've got several more questions so show up. I'll gladly answer any questions I haven't already answered and addressed when some modicum of parity is provided.

Claims are being made without any scriptural support from whole scripture, What scripture is posted is selectively used with confirmation bias, there's an abject failure to answer and address valid inquiry, and everyone has been gaslighted.

Just answer the questions asked.

 

[SeventhDay]

You don't get to change the onus or the specific point being discussed until you do your part. You first answer the question(s) put to you and then I'll answer your inquiries and address whatever op-relevant points are made.

Yes, you should stop making seemingly rational arguments and make actually rational arguments.

I have, did, and will. And I will do so with whole scripture in mind, not the bias-confirming selective use employed in this op that poses as reason.

• Is this op asserting universalism?
• Death and Hades are destroyed (so "all" does not mean all). Can I be shown scripture stating death and Hades are reconciled to God?
• Can I be shown scripture that states everyone is a goat until they are called out of the world, at which time they become sheep?

This is all that has been asked of you (so far). The first question should have been answered, answered when asked, answered directly and concisely, op-relevantly, and moved the discussion forward. Still waiting. The second question should have been answered directly and concisely when asked, moving the discussion forward. The third question should have been answered when asked, directly and concisely, moving the discussion forward. There is nothing rational about avoiding these questions. There is nothing rational about an argument that cannot answer these questions. You do not get to change the subject and put the onus on others when failing to take responsibility for claims made (are you paying attention @Eleanor?) Answer the questions asked when asked. Provide scripture wherever possible and where not possible then come right out and say, "I have no scriptural support for that claim." I've got several more questions so show up. I'll gladly answer any questions I haven't already answered and addressed when some modicum of parity is provided.

Claims are being made without any scriptural support from whole scripture, What scripture is posted is selectively used with confirmation bias, there's an abject failure to answer and address valid inquiry, and everyone has been gaslighted.

Just answer the questions aske

Does God his people sheep whom he predestines to salvation? Yes or no?

Whom does God not predestine to Salvation?

Eph 1:9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
Eph 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
Eph 1:12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.

 

[Eleanor]

That’s what I just posted!

You just posted that Christ' death was ineffective for some for whom he died.

Christ's death was ineffective for none for whom he died.
Nothing God does in himself or his Son is effective in any way, or God is not sovereign.

 

[Eleanor]

Both houses of Israel!

That is Judah and Israel, all of God's OT people.

Had the northeast corner of Solomon's kingdom decided to move out of Canaan and to Africa, would they still be God's people?