The Greatest Lie Of Them All

[Eleanor]

I still do not read any scriptural evidence for the claim made. I did ask.

Last chance.

Nor have I for your claim made.

 

[SeventhDay]

You just posted that Christ' death was ineffective for some for whom he died.

Christ's death was ineffective for none for whom he died.
Nothing God does in himself or his Son is effective in any way, or God is not sovereign.

God will fulfil all his purposes and all will glorify God and rejoiced in their Savior.

 

[EarlyActs]

Whom does God not predestine to Salvation?

Eph 1:9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
Eph 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
Eph 1:12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.

The emphasis of the line is actually on the predestined accomplishment in Christ that has been completed, more than the individuals who believe.

Jn 6 seems to have the best NT balance: "It is the Father's wish that all who believe on the Son should gain eternal life."

 

[Eleanor]

God will fulfil all his purposes and all will glorify God and rejoiced in their Savior.

Precisely.

And those for whom he died will be saved in this life.

And those who reject Christ will never be saved.

 

[Josheb]

Whom does God not predestine to Salvation?

Eph 1:9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
Eph 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
Eph 1:12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.

I understand the intent is to argue "all" humans will be saved. You do not get to ask questions until you have first answered some.

Please do not answer questions with questions - and definitely do not answer questions with question and then claim to be making a rational argument. And please do not continue to pile other selectively used scriptures into the thread in avoidance of the questions asked until the passages originally listed have been addressed. Stop obfuscating!

• Is this op asserting universalism?
• Death and Hades are destroyed (so "all" does not mean all). Can I be shown scripture stating death and Hades are reconciled to God?
• Can I be shown scripture that states everyone is a goat until they are called out of the world, at which time they become sheep?

This is all that has been asked of you (so far). Last chance. If I do not get direct and concise answers to these questions I will go through the op (and maybe a few other posts) line by line and refute the abuse with which they have been rendered AND I will ignore every protest on your part because a consistent unwillingness to engage the op has been repeatedly demonstrated. You won't get to change your mind later. Coming into the forum to willfully assert what you know is recognized as a heresy and doing so under the auspices of you know the truth and everyone here is ignorant is unacceptable.

Titus 3:9-11 ESV
But avoid foolish controversies, genealogies, dissensions, and quarrels about the law, for they are unprofitable and worthless. As for a person who stirs up division, after warning him once and then twice, have nothing more to do with him, knowing that such a person is warped and sinful; he is self-condemned.

It's God's three strikes rule . I hope the irony of a person preaching universalism idolatrously presuming to judge all others while proving himself warped, sinful, and self-condemned is not lost on you . Last chance. Just answer the questions asked. Do so directly and concisely, please.

• Is this op asserting universalism?
• Death and Hades are destroyed (so "all" does not mean all). Can I be shown scripture stating death and Hades are reconciled to God?
• Can I be shown scripture that states everyone is a goat until they are called out of the world, at which time they become sheep?

.

 

[Eleanor]

Both houses of Israel!

Had the northeast corner of Solomon's kingdom decided to move out of Canaan and to Africa, would they still be God's people?

 

[Josheb]

Nor have I for your claim made.

....because repeated attempts have been made to shift the onus away from your baseless claims onto what subsequently ensued. You do not get to ignore your own statements and demand others explain theirs in avoidance of explaining, evidencing, and/or proving your own claims. I don't take that bait, tolerate that subterfuge, or collaborate with the fallacy or its obfuscation.

You first.

• Prove the building still exists in the ashes.
• Prove the dichotomy of substance and form valid and not false.
• Prove the building is form, not substance.
• Prove annihilation is only substance, not form.
• Prove there is ash left over.

Use scripture wherever possible and applicable.

No one has any obligation to explain anything before the above is done. A pile of statements that either will not or cannot be evidenced and prove have been asserted, and the digression gets further afield of the op. Prove your own claims before demanding evidence for others' dissent of those claims. No dissent will be possible if the claims made are proven.

 

[atpollard]

The Greatest Lie Of Them All​

"This won't hurt a bit. You may feel a small 'pinch' but that's all."

 

[Eleanor]

....because repeated attempts have been made

Wasn't last chance after all.

 

[atpollard]

The teaching that God saves some and not all is the greatest of all lies

Ummm ... not all ARE saved. [I am really sorry to have to be the one to burst your UNIVERSAL SALVATION bubble.]

 

[Josheb]

Wasn't last chance after all.

It was. Thank you for your time.

 

[makesends]

makesends said:
Does God [call] his people sheep whom he predestines to salvation? Yes or no?

Whom does God not predestine to Salvation?

Eph 1:9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
Eph 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
Eph 1:12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.

Any who are not elect. To be clear, ONLY the elect are predestined to salvation.

Can you show scripture to the contrary? Those verses you give there do not. Or, maybe you can show how they do.

 

[makesends]

@SeventhDay

Precisely.

And those for whom he died will be saved in this life.

And those who reject Christ will never be saved.

Amen. And that, to the praise of his glory.

 

[SeventhDay]

@SeventhDay

Amen. And that, to the praise of his glory.

False gospel!

 

[SeventhDay]

makesends said:
Does God [call] his people sheep whom he predestines to salvation? Yes or no?


Any who are not elect. To be clear, ONLY the elect are predestined to salvation.

Can you show scripture to the contrary? Those verses you give there do not. Or, maybe you can show how they do.

The scriptures show that all will be saved and be made complete in Christ and it is the elect overcomer who will overcome the world thus death will be done away with. All will be overcomers. Understand?

1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

1Co 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he
shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

1Co 15:25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

1Co 15:26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

1Co 15:27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.

1Co 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

Just believe and teach the scriptures!

 

[makesends]

The scriptures show that all will be saved and be made complete in Christ and it is the elect overcomer who will overcome the world thus death will be done away with. All will be overcomers. Understand?

1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

1Co 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he
shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

1Co 15:25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

1Co 15:26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

1Co 15:27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.

1Co 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

Just believe and teach the scriptures!

1 Corinthians 15:22 Are there any that are made alive some other way, than in Christ?

1 Corinthians 15:23 How is that not referring to the elect, but rather, to everyone?

1 Corinthians 15:24 How does that show that everyone will be saved?

1 Corinthians 15:25 Does that not show that his enemies will not be saved?

1 Corinthians 15:26 Does that not show that even death will be destroyed? How does that then mean that everyone will be saved?

1 Corinthians 15:27 If his enemies are to be destroyed, how are they, then, who are put under his feet, to be saved?

1 Corinthians 15:28 If the Son is subject to the the Father, and so God is all in all, how does that mean that everyone will be saved?


"Just believe and teach the Scriptures!", you say. We will all be measured by our own standard.

 

[SeventhDay]

1 Corinthians 15:22 Are there any that are made alive some other way, than in Christ?

1 Corinthians 15:23 How is that not referring to the elect, but rather, to everyone?

1 Corinthians 15:24 How does that show that everyone will be saved?

1 Corinthians 15:25 Does that not show that his enemies will not be saved?

1 Corinthians 15:26 Does that not show that even death will be destroyed? How does that then mean that everyone will be saved?

1 Corinthians 15:27 If his enemies are to be destroyed, how are they, then, who are put under his feet, to be saved?

"Just believe and teach the Scriptures!", you say. We will all be measured by our own standard.

"1 Corinthians 15:22 Are there any that are made alive some other way, than in Christ?"

Christ is the only way!

"1 Corinthians 15:23 How is that not referring to the elect, but rather, to everyone?"

Is not the elect overcomers then it refers to everyone for all with defeat death through Christ!

1Co 15:26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

Death is defeated by those who overcome the world or the carnal mind!

Each fruit company defeats death and they are overcomers!

"1 Corinthians 15:24 How does that show that everyone will be saved?"

Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

All that are made alive are saved!

"1 Corinthians 15:25 Does that not show that his enemies will not be saved?"

"1 Corinthians 15:25 Does that not show that his enemies will not be saved?"

All who sin are enemies to God but all that are in Christ overcome death thus have overcome death and will be one with God.

"1 Corinthians 15:26 Does that not show that even death will be destroyed? How does that then mean that everyone will be saved?"

Because all overcome death because they are saved and all are saved indicated by this verse"

1Co 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

If God is all in all then all are saved!

"1 Corinthians 15:27 If his enemies are to be destroyed, how are they, then, who are put under his feet, to be saved?"

We were all enemies but what did God do?

Eph 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

Eph 2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

Eph 2:3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

Eph 2:4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,

Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved

Now, do you understand this mystery?

Eph 1:9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:

Eph 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:

You must understand the scriptures before you can believe and then teach them

God bless you.

 

[makesends]

SeventhDay said:
The scriptures show that all will be saved and be made complete in Christ and it is the elect overcomer who will overcome the world thus death will be done away with. All will be overcomers. Understand?

1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

1Co 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he
shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

1Co 15:25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

1Co 15:26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

1Co 15:27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.

1Co 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

Just believe and teach the scriptures!

makesends said:
1 Corinthians 15:22 Are there any that are made alive some other way, than in Christ?

1 Corinthians 15:23 How is that not referring to the elect, but rather, to everyone?

1 Corinthians 15:24 How does that show that everyone will be saved?

1 Corinthians 15:25 Does that not show that his enemies will not be saved?

1 Corinthians 15:26 Does that not show that even death will be destroyed? How does that then mean that everyone will be saved?

1 Corinthians 15:27 If his enemies are to be destroyed, how are they, then, who are put under his feet, to be saved?

"Just believe and teach the Scriptures!", you say. We will all be measured by our own standard.


You post above as if the verses you present are somehow representative or supportive of the notion that absolutely everyone who ever lived will be saved. I then responded by showing what those verses are about, which does not support nor represent your notion.

Then you answer:

"1 Corinthians 15:22 Are there any that are made alive some other way, than in Christ?"

Christ is the only way!

So, how does that support your Universalism? The verse is rather obviously not about all becoming saved, but, rather, about the only way of salvation.

"1 Corinthians 15:23 How is that not referring to the elect, but rather, to everyone?"

Is not the elect overcomers then it refers to everyone for all with defeat death through Christ!

Sorry. Maybe you can rewrite that. It doesn't seem to be a cogent sentence to me.

1Co 15:26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

Death is defeated by those who overcome the world or the carnal mind!

Each fruit company defeats death and they are overcomers!

What is a fruit company?

"1 Corinthians 15:24 How does that show that everyone will be saved?"

Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

All that are made alive are saved!

Of course, all that are made alive are saved. And as noted above, it is only in Christ that any are made alive. Most are not in Christ.

"1 Corinthians 15:25 Does that not show that his enemies will not be saved?"

"1 Corinthians 15:25 Does that not show that his enemies will not be saved?"

All who sin are enemies to God but all that are in Christ overcome death thus have overcome death and will be one with God.

Yes, of course! But you have to demonstrate that absolutely everyone who ever lived are in Christ. Otherwise, your 'proof' there isn't even circular!

"1 Corinthians 15:26 Does that not show that even death will be destroyed? How does that then mean that everyone will be saved?"

Because all overcome death because they are saved and all are saved indicated by this verse"

1Co 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

If God is all in all then all are saved!

"All" there is not referring to only the saved, but ALL things, and thus, not as though to save all things, but also to condemn his enemies.

"1 Corinthians 15:27 If his enemies are to be destroyed, how are they, then, who are put under his feet, to be saved?"

We were all enemies but what did God do?

Eph 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

Eph 2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

Eph 2:3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

Eph 2:4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,

Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved

Now, do you understand this mystery?

All true, except for your use of it. What is the point of repeating things we both agree with, without demonstrating how they prove your point?

Eph 1:9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:

Eph 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:

You must understand the scriptures before you can believe and then teach them

"You must understand the scriptures before you can believe and then teach them" Ha! Where is that in Scripture? You'd be surprised at what God uses to get the Gospel preached!

But even if that was true, how does that demonstrate your point? It only serves to show that you think you have it right, and are therefore at some level better than those who don't believe as you do. That only makes your argument less convincing.

 

[SeventhDay]

SeventhDay said:
The scriptures show that all will be saved and be made complete in Christ and it is the elect overcomer who will overcome the world thus death will be done away with. All will be overcomers. Understand?

1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

1Co 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he
shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

1Co 15:25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

1Co 15:26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

1Co 15:27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.

1Co 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

Just believe and teach the scriptures!

makesends said:
1 Corinthians 15:22 Are there any that are made alive some other way, than in Christ?

1 Corinthians 15:23 How is that not referring to the elect, but rather, to everyone?

1 Corinthians 15:24 How does that show that everyone will be saved?

1 Corinthians 15:25 Does that not show that his enemies will not be saved?

1 Corinthians 15:26 Does that not show that even death will be destroyed? How does that then mean that everyone will be saved?

1 Corinthians 15:27 If his enemies are to be destroyed, how are they, then, who are put under his feet, to be saved?

"Just believe and teach the Scriptures!", you say. We will all be measured by our own standard.


You post above as if the verses you present are somehow representative or supportive of the notion that absolutely everyone who ever lived will be saved. I then responded by showing what those verses are about, which does not support nor represent your notion.

Then you answer:

So, how does that support your Universalism? The verse is rather obviously not about all becoming saved, but, rather, about the only way of salvation.

Sorry. Maybe you can rewrite that. It doesn't seem to be a cogent sentence to me.

What is a fruit company?

Of course, all that are made alive are saved. And as noted above, it is only in Christ that any are made alive. Most are not in Christ.

Yes, of course! But you have to demonstrate that absolutely everyone who ever lived are in Christ. Otherwise, your 'proof' there isn't even circular!

"All" there is not referring to only the saved, but ALL things, and thus, not as though to save all things, but also to condemn his enemies.

All true, except for your use of it. What is the point of repeating things we both agree with, without demonstrating how they prove your point?

"You must understand the scriptures before you can believe and then teach them" Ha! Where is that in Scripture? You'd be surprised at what God uses to get the Gospel preached!

But even if that was true, how does that demonstrate your point? It only serves to show that you think you have it right, and are therefore at some level better than those who don't believe as you do. That only makes your argument less convincing.

No comment!

 

[turbomaniac]

God Word will save all if THEY WANT TO BE SAVED and do the will of the Father.

The first step is to accept the God Word (Jesus Christ) as the Savior