The god of Calvinism's arbitrary decision.

[justbyfaith]

Asked and answered in Romans 9.
If you will not accept the answer from the Apostle Paul, why would you believe me?

I don't see that in Romans 9. Maybe you can quote the verses in question and expound on them.

 

[atpollard]

Let me take a shot at briefly stating my understanding of what Calvinism believes (as a Particular Baptist):

John 6:44

• No one can come to Me [Total Inability - no one can come!]
• unless the Father who sent Me [Unconditional Election - God chooses men, men do not choose God.]
• draws him; [Irresistible Grace - God DRAWS like fish in a net, not INVITES like we have a choice.]
• and I will raise him up on the last day. [Preservation of the Saints - Those the Father draws are all raised by the Son in the end; none are lost.]

 

[atpollard]

So, God purposes to send certain people to hell?

I don't see that in Romans 9. Maybe you can quote the verses in question and expound on them.

Here is the PARAGRAPH containing the answer:

Romans 9:19-26 [NASB]
19 You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?" 20 On the contrary, who are you, you [foolish] person, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, "Why did you make me like this," will it? 21 Or does the potter not have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one object for honorable use, and another for common use? 22 What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with great patience objects of wrath prepared for destruction? 23 And [He did so] to make known the riches of His glory upon objects of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory, 24 [namely] us, whom He also called, not only from among Jews, but also from among Gentiles, 25 as He also says in Hosea: "I WILL CALL THOSE WHO WERE NOT MY PEOPLE, 'MY PEOPLE,' AND HER WHO WAS NOT BELOVED, 'BELOVED.'" 26 "AND IT SHALL BE THAT IN THE PLACE WHERE IT WAS SAID TO THEM, 'YOU ARE NOT MY PEOPLE,' THERE THEY SHALL BE CALLED SONS OF THE LIVING GOD."

• Paul begins by establishing that God as the absolute creator has the RIGHT to do with His creation whatever He wishes. We have no grounds for objecting.
• The underlined portion answered your question about WHY (even though God owed us no explanation). God is willing to demonstrate His wrath (that means sending people to hell) to “make His power known”. The reason God chooses to make His power known is to “make known the riches of His glory” upon us to whom He chooses to show mercy.
• You may understand the answer. You may partially understand the answer. You may not understand the answer at all. Whatever the case, Paul HAS answered the question for you.

 

[justbyfaith]

Here is my teaching on Romans 9.

Rom 9:1, I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost,
Rom 9:2, That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart.
Rom 9:3, For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:
Rom 9:4, Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
Rom 9:5, Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.
In v.1, Paul is needing to qualify his next statements by making certain that his hearers understand that he is telling the truth, so he says, I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost. if anyone says these words in order to substantiate their words, you can be certain that if they then go about lying that they will be the subjects of the Lord's judgment.
In v.2 Paul had great heaviness and sorrow in his heart concerning what he is about to speak of.
In v.3, It is his brethren, his kinsmen according to the flesh that he is concerned about. He could even wish that he were accursed from Christ (not saved) if it would mean that they could be saved.
In my own life I read these scriptures and at the time I had a real issue with the doctrine of the Perseverance of the Saints; especially as it is purported in its greasy-grace equivalent, Once-Saved-Always-Saved (OSAS). I felt that it was dangerous to the body of Christ; in that it took away the fear of the LORD that would act as a keeping influence in the lives of many Christians concerning walking in freedom from sin, if they had it. I felt that the doctrine of OSAS minimizes the fear of the LORD at its very core.
So, I asked the Lord to make me an example of someone who had fallen away from the faith in order that OSAS might be defeated. And for approximately 30 years I backslid while going to church and reading my Bible...in fact I think that I have not even yet fully recovered from the willful sin that I committed that caused me to believe that I had permanently lost my salvation. I would read Hebrews 6:1-8 and Hebrews 10:26-31 and be driven to despair.
But certain other verses have now given me hope. Among them are Psalms 31:22, Job 14:7-11, Luke 1:37, Acts of the Apostles 27:20-24, and a few others.
But it was the height of folly to be willing to lose my salvation over the proving of the falsity of a doctrine. As it turned out, I have needed that doctrine in order to keep my sanity since the day that I felt that I had lost my salvation.
Verses that substantiate it are John 5:24, John 6:47, John 10:27-30, and Jeremiah 32:38-40 w/ Psalms 19:9.
I have considered that I was walking as a Romans 8 believer for approximately one year; and that in this I was living on the 3rd story of a building. When I fell into sin, I fell down to the 2nd story of the building; beginning to live a Romans 7:14-25 lifestyle. If I had fallen from the 3rd story to the 1st story (complete unbelief towards Christ), I would have been a goner...dead on the floor.
Nevertheless, if you find that you yourself have fallen from the 3rd story to a state of unbelief, a story (no pun intended) that might do you good is found in Acts of the Apostles 20:7-12. A young man named Eutychus fell from the 3rd story of a building to the ground; and was taken up dead. Paul laid his entire body over him and then proclaimed him to be alive. He did in fact raise him from the dead with a simple declaration of faith. If you have fallen from the 3rd story of the building to the ground, I proclaim that your life is still in you; get up and begin walking the walk and talking the talk; and you will find that you are in fact alive in the Spirit.
In v.4, the people that Paul could have wished that he might have been accursed (notice he did not actually wish it; very llikely because he knew that God would not answer such a request in the affirmative) for were the Israelites, the Jewish people; to whom pertain the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
In v.5, of the Israelites, whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Now some people think that this is saying that Christ is eternally blessed by God; but some translations translate this, of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is the eternally blessed God. Therefore this verse is an evidence, while not a proof text, for the Deity of Christ. It may be the straw that breaks the camel's back for some Jehovah's Witness, Christadelphian, or Unitarian; and therefore it would not be a bad thing to share it; as long as you don't present it as a proof-text but as an evidentiary text.

Rom 9:6, Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: Rom 9:7, Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. Rom 9:8, That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed. Rom 9:9, For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sara shall have a son. Rom 9:10, And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac; Rom 9:11, (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth; ) Rom 9:12, It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. Rom 9:13, As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
In v. 6, not everyone who is of the seed of Jacob is spiritual Israel; and also, spiritual Israel consists of more than the seed of Jacob.
Now we do not want to go so far as to promote Replacement Theology here; for it should be clear that there are certain promises to Israel in the Old Testament and that these belong to the seed of Jacob and not to anyone in the Gentile church. Nevertheless it will be clear when we get to Romans 11 that there are Gentiles who are graffed into the olive tree which is Israel and that this Israel is in fact the New Testament church in holy scripture. There will come a day when all the fulness of the Gentiles shall come in and then Israel shall be graffed back in to its own olive tree of faith. And this will happen when they come to faith in their own Messiah, Jesus Christ; whom they have rejected for many centuries; while there has always been a remnant out of those descended from Jacob who have believed.
In v.7, It is not the seed of Abraham who will be called, but it is the seed of Isaac who will be called. This is on two counts: 1) It is the seed of Isaac physically who will establish the promised seed of Messiah and He will not come through Ishmael; and 2) we will see that the seed of Isaac is reminiscent of the seed of promise rather than the seed of the flesh.
In v.8, The children of the flesh are not counted as the children of God. We saw in Romans 8:12-13 that we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after it. For if we live after the flesh, we shall die; but if through the Spirit we mortify the deeds of the body, we shall live. The children of promise are therefore the spiritual offspring which are of faith and who walk according to the Spirit. As it is written in Galatians 4:28, we are the children of promise, because we believe in Jesus and have received His Spirit, and because we walk according to His Spirit.
In v.9, the word of promise is that Sara shall have a son. This son came about by faith. See Romans 4:18-21, Hebrews 11:11-12.
In v.10, Rebecca also bore a child of faith and predestination; actually twins: one of whom was predestinated to favour with God and the other who was predestinated to disfavour.
In v.11-12, when the children had not yet done any good or evil, it was said of them, that the elder should serve the younger, and this was by predestination of the Lord. Predestination is both by foreknowledge (Romans 8:29, 1 Peter 1:2) and by the predetermined counsel of God's will and purpose (Ephesians 1:5, Ephesians 1:11).
In v.13, God love Jacob but hated Esau; even before the two were born the Lord had a predetermined liking for Jacob and a hatred for Esau; while the scripture that declares the Lord's love and hatred is written many years after Jacob and Esau lived their lives, yet the context here in Romans places it as being a statement that the Lord makes concerning God's estimation of them both before the foundations of the world. God saw from the beginning the instance where Esau sold his birthright and blessing for a bowl of stew and was very displeased with Esau. It can also be said that the Lord wrote the story out to make an example of Esau so that men would thereafter see him as a bad example not to be followed. It is written in the book of Proverbs,
Pro 16:4, The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.
and again,
Pro 28:5, Evil men understand not judgment: but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

 

[justbyfaith]

<cont'd>

Rom 9:13, As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. Rom 9:14, What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. Rom 9:15, For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. Rom 9:16, So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. Rom 9:17, For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. Rom 9:18, Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
In v.13, Paul quotes from Malachi 1:2-3, wherein God says that He loved Jacob but hated Esau. In scripture it becomes clear that God love Jacob and hated Esau before they were even born. On what basis? On the basis of His foreknowledge of their behaviour. God is angry with the wicked every day; and it is clear from holy scripture that Esau was wicked. But God exists outside of time; and therefore He is angry with the wicked from the perspective of Him dwelling in eternity. Therefore He is always angry with those whom He knows will never receive Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour; and He always has favour towards those whom he knows will eventually come to Him for salvation.
In v.14, the fact that God has angry emotions against the wicked does not make God unrighteous. It is, in fact, the exact opposite. It is His righteousness that makes Him angry with wicked behaviour.
In v.15, God reserves the right to show compassion to whom He wills; and to show mercy to whom He wills. He has His reasons for redeeming every person who will be redeemed; and we are not to question His choices.
In v.16, We can run, and we can will ourselves to be saved; but our willing and our running is not what is going to save us. God is in fact a God of grace and He gives salvation to many as a free gift. So, if there are those who, in an attempt to earn their salvation, run hard and will hard to enter into the kingdom; and if God says, no, you will not enter into the kingdom, then God is just to exclude them from the kingdom because it is not of him who runs or of him who wills but of God who shows mercy. That being said, I would bring up a specific scripture that tells us that if we come to Him on the basis of His mercy, he will not reject us: Jhn 6:37, All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
In v.17, We know that God hardened Pharaoh's heart in order to bring about a greater purpose of making His power and glory known to the world. God sacrificed Pharaoh in that Pharaoh could not be saved because God had hardened his heart; but it was for a greater purpose; that men may understand that God is sovereign and Omnipotent and in control; and that He is greater than all other gods.
In v.18, God has mercy on whom He wills; and whom He wills He also hardens. This only goes to show that God is God and we are not. God gives every man a choice as concerning whether they will come to faith in Jesus Christ; but ultimately God is in control of our decisions in that love never fails and those whom He loves, He will not fail to bring into the kingdom. He also sees us worshipping Him in eternity from before the foundation of the world, before He created us; and so He has chosen to single out certain souls for salvation who have been foreknown and therefore predestinated unto salvation.

Rom 9:19, Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? Rom 9:20, Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Rom 9:21, Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? Rom 9:22, What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction. Rom 9:23, And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, Rom 9:24, Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
In v.19, in response to the thought that God sheweth mercy to whom he wills; Paul now deals with the objection in the mind of the sinner; why does God find fault with me if everything is predestinated according to His will? If He predetermined for me to be a sinner and condemned, then how can he blame me for being a sinner? It was His predetermined choice, after all...
What the objector is not seeing is that it has always been the Lord's will that they should come to repentance; and that the Lord predestinated them to salvation or damnation according to foreknowledge of the decisions that they would make. Time and chance happen to everything (Ecclesiastes 9:11) and if God looked forward into history and foreknew who would most easily choose Him; and then put forth the utmost effort to save as many as possible by principally loving those whom He knew would be redeemed unto salvation (for it is written that love never fails), then God is actually doing all He can to make sure as many people as possible will enter in to the kingdom. Psalms 49:7-9 is tantamount to this.
In v.20, The answer is simple: you are the one who is formed by God; and if God created you with a specific purpose in mind, who are you to answer back to God? Now here is the thing: when the potter chooses his clay, it can be said that each lump of clay cries out for a specific thing to be done to it from within itself. The potter merely forms out of the clay the thing that the clay was intended to be by its general makeup and demeanor. A lump of clay may cry out to be something wonderful; but in the process of working the clay, the clay becomes marred in the potter's hand; because the clay didn't really know what it wanted. It wanted the glory of being a wonderful piece but did not want to face the suffering of being molded and shaped into it. So the potter has to make it into a less wonderful piece because it is marred in the potter's hand; it responded to the working of the clay in such a manner that the original intended purpose cannot now be achieved.
In v.21, The potter has power over each lump of clay to make it unto honour or dishonour. If a piece of clay wants to be made unto honour, it must endure the process of being molded and shaped in the hands of the potter. The potter ultimately decides whether a lump of clay is worthy to be made into an honourable vessel; based on how it responds to the potter's touch.
In v.22, The potter may be enduring the different intricacies of how the clay is on the inside of itself before he decides to make it into a dishonourable vessel. God is always wanting to make an honourable vessel out of every lump of clay; but certain lumps may not respond properly to the potter's touch and so the final decision for that lump of clay is that it becomes a dishonourable vessel. Consider what is written in Hebrews 3:12-13:
Heb 3:12, Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
Heb 3:13, But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
In v.23, it appears that God prepared the lumps of clay that are predestined unto glory before He began to mold them and shape them; so that they not only cry out to be made into honourable vessels; but they are created in such a way that they will respond in a proper manner to the potter's touch.
Other vessels, He simply did not prepare for glory; and He is fully aware beforehand that they will very likely not respond properly to the potter's hand; while there is always hope that an unprepared vessel might be able to be made into something honourable. But unprepared vessels generally do not want to be an honourable vessel; it is their inclination to want to form themselves into what they want to be apart from the potter's touch. So they rebel against the molding and shaping of the potter.
In v.24, Paul is hopeful that the ones he is writing to are among those who will be molded and shaped into honourable vessels.
In all of this, I believe that it is expedient for us to ask the Lord on a regular basis to make us into an honourable vessel; and also to not buck it when He is forming us into something that perhaps we don't want to be.
If we ask to be made into an honourable vessel and are also moldable in the potter's hands, we can rest assured that we will be made into an honourable vessel. For it is written,
Mat 7:7, Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:
Mat 7:8, For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.
If we attempt to will our own salvation into being, we will surely fail to produce salvation in ourselves (John 1:13, Romans 9:16); but if we cast ourselves upon the mercy of the Lord, we can be certain that He will be faithful to hear us; for it is also written,
Jhn 6:37, All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

 

[justbyfaith]

<cont'd>

Rom 9:25, As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved. Rom 9:26, And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God. Rom 9:27, Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved: Rom 9:28, For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth. Rom 9:29, And as Esaias said before, Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, we had been as Sodoma, and been made like unto Gomorrha.
In v.25, God is a God of love and He seeks out to save that which was lost. Here He is referring to the Gentiles in saying that they were not His people and are now being called His people; but in the original quotation (in Hosea 1:10) God is saying to Israel that they are not His people but that they will again be called His people.
In v.26, those who were told that they were not His people, in the very same place where they were told this, they shall be called children of God.
1Jo 3:1, Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
1Jo 3:2, Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
1Jo 3:3, And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.
In v.27, A remnant of Israel will be saved in the times of the Gentiles; but when the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled, all of Israel shall be saved (Romans 11:26); and they will be saved by nothing other than faith in Jesus Christ. As it is written,
Act 4:10, Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole.
Act 4:11, This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner.
Act 4:12, Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.
In v.28, the Lord is going to cut the work short in righteousness. The history of the world is not going to be a long one. The return of Jesus Christ to rapture His church is always imminent.
In v.29, This is speaking of the remnant of Israel that will come to Christ during the times of the Gentiles; there is a remnant that is left as a seed. If the Lord had not done this, Israel would have been made like Sodom and Gommorha.
It was relatively short today, and I apologize. The next teaching is one of my favorites; it has to do with the righteousness of faith and how salvation is not attained through the righteousness of the law but through faith.

Rom 9:25, As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved. Rom 9:26, And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God. Rom 9:27, Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved: Rom 9:28, For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth. Rom 9:29, And as Esaias said before, Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, we had been as Sodoma, and been made like unto Gomorrha.
In v.25, God is a God of love and He seeks out to save that which was lost. Here He is referring to the Gentiles in saying that they were not His people and are now being called His people; but in the original quotation (in Hosea 1:10) God is saying to Israel that they are not His people but that they will again be called His people.
In v.26, those who were told that they were not His people, in the very same place where they were told this, they shall be called children of God.
1Jo 3:1, Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
1Jo 3:2, Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
1Jo 3:3, And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.
In v.27, A remnant of Israel will be saved in the times of the Gentiles; but when the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled, all of Israel shall be saved (Romans 11:26); and they will be saved by nothing other than faith in Jesus Christ. As it is written,
Act 4:10, Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole.
Act 4:11, This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner.
Act 4:12, Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.
In v.28, the Lord is going to cut the work short in righteousness. The history of the world is not going to be a long one. The return of Jesus Christ to rapture His church is always imminent.
In v.29, This is speaking of the remnant of Israel that will come to Christ during the times of the Gentiles; there is a remnant that is left as a seed. If the Lord had not done this, Israel would have been made like Sodom and Gommorha.
It was relatively short today, and I apologize. The next teaching is one of my favorites; it has to do with the righteousness of faith and how salvation is not attained through the righteousness of the law but through faith.

Rom 9:30, What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith. Rom 9:31, But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. Rom 9:32, Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone; Rom 9:33, As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. Rom 10:1, Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved. Rom 10:2, For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge. Rom 10:3, For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God. Rom 10:4, For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
In 9:30, the Gentiles obtained the righteousness which is of God by faith, even though they didn't seek after righteousness. The Lord sought them out.
In 9:31, Israel, which sought after righteousness as though it were by the law, did not obtain righteousness.
In 9:32, the Gentiles obtained righteousness because they believed by faith when the gospel was presented to them; but Israel could not obtain righteousness because they did not seek it through God's prescribed method: by faith. They sought to obtain it by keeping the law and they missed the boat as a result.
In 9:33, What I have posted above is called the stumbling stone of holy scripture. The Jews stumble over the law because those who are truly redeemed do not violate the law for that they have the righteousness of faith. They have obtained the Holy Spirit by faith (Galatians 3:14) and as a result they bear the fruit of the Spirit (Galatians 5:22-23) against which there is no law. Jewish people and others see this righteous lifestyle which is attested to by the law and the prophets (Romans 3:21); and they think that it has been obtained by the attempt of meeting the requirement. So they seek to justify themselves by attempting to keep the requirement; not realizing that the righteousness of God is obtained apart from the law through faith.
In 10:1, Paul desires that Israel might be saved, though they have indeed stumbled over this stumbling stone.
In 10:2, Israel has a definite zeal for the Lord; but they are mistaken as to how a man is to obtain righteousness; they think that it is through attempting to obey a set of do's and don'ts.
In 10:3, They are ignorant of God's righteousness, which comes by faith; and are seeking to establish their own righteousness, through their own self-effort, in seeking to obey the requirement. Again, they have stumbled at that stumbling stone
In 10:4, It is clear that the system of obtaining righteousness by keeping a set of do's and don'ts has ended in Christ. Now, we walk in righteousness by living according to the love that has been shed abroad in our hearts through the Holy Ghost (Romans 5:5). We obey the leadings and promptings of the Holy Spirit (Psalms 123:2); and the righteousness of the law is fulfilled in us as the sure result (Romans 8:4).

 

[justbyfaith]

Here is the PARAGRAPH containing the answer:

Romans 9:19-26 [NASB]
19 You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?" 20 On the contrary, who are you, you [foolish] person, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, "Why did you make me like this," will it? 21 Or does the potter not have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one object for honorable use, and another for common use? 22 What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with great patience objects of wrath prepared for destruction? 23 And [He did so] to make known the riches of His glory upon objects of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory, 24 [namely] us, whom He also called, not only from among Jews, but also from among Gentiles, 25 as He also says in Hosea: "I WILL CALL THOSE WHO WERE NOT MY PEOPLE, 'MY PEOPLE,' AND HER WHO WAS NOT BELOVED, 'BELOVED.'" 26 "AND IT SHALL BE THAT IN THE PLACE WHERE IT WAS SAID TO THEM, 'YOU ARE NOT MY PEOPLE,' THERE THEY SHALL BE CALLED SONS OF THE LIVING GOD."

• Paul begins by establishing that God as the absolute creator has the RIGHT to do with His creation whatever He wishes. We have no grounds for objecting.
• The underlined portion answered your question about WHY (even though God owed us no explanation). God is willing to demonstrate His wrath (that means sending people to hell) to “make His power known”. The reason God chooses to make His power known is to “make known the riches of His glory” upon us to whom He chooses to show mercy.
• You may understand the answer. You may partially understand the answer. You may not understand the answer at all. Whatever the case, Paul HAS answered the question for you.

They were not His people but are now His people...

They were not His people from before the foundations of the world?

It indicates to me that they became His people through a decision that was made by them...

 

[atpollard]

Here is my teaching on Romans 9.

So your request of me was dishonest. You had no intention to “listen” to what I said … you were just “waiting to speak.”
So noted.

 

[justbyfaith]

So your request of me was dishonest. You had no intention to “listen” to what I said … you were just “waiting to speak.”
So noted.

You are wrong there. I am always interested in receiving new input. The fact that I was willing to give my own input in no way means that I will never consider yours.

You shouldn't be so quick to judge.

 

[makesends]

So there's NOTHING UNCONDITIONAL about your version of "Election" - it's all "Merit based".

NO! Lol, wow. How is it merit based? NOBODY merits salvation —not even the elect. The Elect are chosen because of God's love and purposes for them.

 

[makesends]

I've gotten it from a couple of people on these boards, EXACTLY which ones I don't remember.

What I DO KNOW is that Calvinists take great EXCEPTION to "Election" being totally arbitrary (unconditional - "U"), and so invent "Work arounds". God just "arbitrarily" picking names out of a hat, and dumping them mindlessly into "Elect", and "Firewood" boxes just doesn't sit well.

So how DOES GOD select the "Elect", discarding everybody else in the process?? What's YOUR version???

In the human (temporal) vernacular, God 'decided' to create the Bride of Christ, and Dwelling Place of God, (and a few other names) for the finally saved. So he created the beings who would become that. They are called the Elect; they are saved according to God's time and purposes in this temporal realm, and will inherit the kingdom of God. What is arbitrary about that?

Everybody else was created for whatever purpose God "had in mind" concerning them. By obedience and disobedience both, they fulfill everything God had in 'mind' concerning them, just as is true concerning the Elect.

 

[justbyfaith]

NO! Lol, wow. How is it merit based? NOBODY merits salvation —not even the elect. The Elect are chosen because of God's love and purposes for them.

I even saw that it's merit-based. Those who are rejected are rejected because of their sin and because they are enemies of God. They are rejected based on their lack of merit.

 

[justbyfaith]

In the human (temporal) vernacular, God 'decided' to create the Bride of Christ, and Dwelling Place of God, (and a few other names) for the finally saved. So he created the beings who would become that. They are called the Elect; they are saved according to God's time and purposes in this temporal realm, and will inherit the kingdom of God. What is arbitrary about that?

Everybody else was created for whatever purpose God "had in mind" concerning them. By obedience and disobedience both, they fulfill everything God had in 'mind' concerning them, just as is true concerning the Elect.

So, they are disobedient based on God's sovereign decision to make them disobedient?

 

[makesends]

I trust that what I have heard taught by Calvinists is what Calvinists believe. I do not report anything about that, that I have not heard.

Most of the things you have claimed Calvinists believe are, rather, your conclusions upon what you understand them to believe. It's your wording. It may well represent what you understood them to mean, but not what they say. I have known many calvinists, and have read and/or listened to many more, and I don't hear any of them put it the way you do.

 

[justbyfaith]

Most of the things you have claimed Calvinists believe are, rather, your conclusions upon what you understand them to believe. It's your wording. It may well represent what you understood them to mean, but not what they say. I have known many calvinists, and have read and/or listened to many more, and I don't hear any of them put it the way you do.

yes...because I make the logical conclusions based on what they say that escapes them because they are blinded by devotion to their doctrine.

They also have an affinity to the doctrines of Calvinism and so they will not put it in the way that I do...because I see the problems with the theology and am therefore hostile to it; whereas, for whatever reason, they desire to believe in it and therefore they will not speak of it disparagingly as I will do because I see its problems.

 

[justbyfaith]

What is arbitrary about that?

No, it is not arbitrary (except inasmuch as it is based on the whim of God)...it is based on God's purpose that they are cast into the lake of fire...which, in my opinion, is 1,000 times worse!

That is not a God of love...who purposely creates people with a destiny of burning in eternal flames.

We are fearfully and wonderfully made.

The only God who is a God of love is the God who is not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

 

[makesends]

I even saw that it's merit-based. Those who are rejected are rejected because of their sin and because they are enemies of God. They are rejected based on their lack of merit.

No, they were rejected before they had even done anything good or bad, according to Romans 9:11. They are condemned because of their sin.

 

[makesends]

I disagree with Calvinism where Romans 10:9-13 disagrees with Calvinism.

If that's all you disagree with Calvinism about, you don't disagree with Calvinism, because Romans 10:9-13 doesn't disagree with Calvinism.

 

[makesends]

No, it is not arbitrary (except inasmuch as it is based on the whim of God)...it is based on God's purpose that they are cast into the lake of fire...which, in my opinion, is 1,000 times worse!

That is not a God of love...who purposely creates people with a destiny of burning in eternal flames.

We are fearfully and wonderfully made.

The only God who is a God of love is the God who is not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

Well, it isn't a good hermeneutic that interprets scripture and builds doctrine on one's notion of love, instead of on what the Bible says.

 

[makesends]

Already did. Just read what I wrote concerning Romans 10:9-13.

Calvinism doesn't differ from Romans 10:9-13. It's all true.