The False Doctrine of a 7-year Tribulation

[TMSO]

The answer to questions like Eleanor's is never an appeal to the Trinity. Eleanor (nor I) was not asking if you are inventing a term based on what scripture states. She is asking if your beliefs are based on something explicitly stated in scripture, if so here, and if not then do you possess and ability to acknowledge that fact? The answer to that question then fosters a new line of discussion that is warranted and beneficial to have but rarely occurs because if your position is not based on something specifically, explicitly stated.....

• Why then do you believe it?
• How then did you arrive at that position?
• Are you aware of how much inference you do and where you do it and why?
• How else can the texts (assuming you use any) be read and why are they not read that way?

That is the short, abbreviated list. Your ability to answer Eleanor's question is revealing to all those reading your posts. Remember: all we have is what you post and if it looks like you are unable and unwilling to answer a question as valid and simple to answer as the one she asked then that is telling. Even when a person is unnecessarily snarky it's best to answer the question asked and if you think the other poster is trolling the silence is the best response - not a non sequitur.



Do you have scripture text specifically locating the rapture before the tribulation or not?

I Thessalonians 4 is not Jesus second coming. We meet Him in the air, and so (in the air) we will be with Him always. That is, as was stated so many centuries ago, in the rooms prepared for us by Jesus in His Father house. And if it were not so, Jesus would have told us.
John 14
"14 “Do not let your heart be troubled; [a]believe in God, believe also in Me. 2 In My Father’s house are many [b]rooms; if that were not so, [c]I would have told you, because I am going there to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I am coming again and will take you to Myself, so that where I am, there you also will be. 4 And you know the way where I am going.” 5 Thomas *said to Him, “Lord, we do not know where You are going; how do we know the way?” 6 Jesus *said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father except through Me."

Not on Earth, right? So not the second coming, correct?
I Thessalonians 4
"13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brothers and sisters, about those who [j]are asleep, so that you will not grieve as indeed the rest of mankind do, who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose from the dead, so also God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep [k]through Jesus. 15 For we say this to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive [l]and remain until the coming of the Lord will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a [m]shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive, who remain, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore, [n]comfort one another with these words."

The belief is that Paul is speaking of the rapture.
Intent of passage: But we do not want you to be uninformed about those who are asleep.
Why write the passage: Paul doesn't want the church grieving like the rest of mankind who have no hope.
God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep through Jesus.

Jesus will descend from heaven and the dead will rise first, then we will be caught UP with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. So Jesus never breaks through the clouds to Earth, which is what the young men told the disciple would happen at Jesus second coming. This is not Jesus second coming. This, by itself, I would say, shows the rapture is NOT at Jesus second coming. So, a no-go on a post-trib rapture. That leaves, logically, pre/mid trib raptures. That is probably why the ECF believed in it.

William Sherwin (1607-1687) had this to say “This Doctrine many of the ancient Fathers acknowledged … Justine Martyr … Irenaeus … Tertullian … even Augustine sometime held it, though by the subtlety of Satan, forgeing lyes to asperse the Millenary opinion, and stirring men up to foist in offensive errours … in these latter times hath again discovered it, after so many hundred years of its lying hid for the most part in the Church, to be a doctrine really embraced by his faithful people [who] will doubtless certainly know, that upon their rapture to meet Christ, they shall be perfected in glory evermore in heaven.”

When the Early Church Fathers (some/all?) dealt with it, most went with 3 1/2 years before the end. I don't know if any went with 7 years. However, that is because they believed the Great Tribulation to only be 3 1/2 years. The pouring out of God's wrath to destroy His blessed children is a bridge to far to believe. You are free to believe it, but I only believe that we will face general tribulation/persecution that comes before God pours out His wrath. And to further shape it, there are believers who will go through the Great Tribulation, however, they were not believers when the Great Tribulation started.

 

[TMSO]

The answer to questions like Eleanor's is never an appeal to the Trinity. Eleanor (nor I) was not asking if you are inventing a term based on what scripture states. She is asking if your beliefs are based on something explicitly stated in scripture, if so here, and if not then do you possess and ability to acknowledge that fact? The answer to that question then fosters a new line of discussion that is warranted and beneficial to have but rarely occurs because if your position is not based on something specifically, explicitly stated.....

• Why then do you believe it?
• How then did you arrive at that position?
• Are you aware of how much inference you do and where you do it and why?
• How else can the texts (assuming you use any) be read and why are they not read that way?

That is the short, abbreviated list. Your ability to answer Eleanor's question is revealing to all those reading your posts. Remember: all we have is what you post and if it looks like you are unable and unwilling to answer a question as valid and simple to answer as the one she asked then that is telling. Even when a person is unnecessarily snarky it's best to answer the question asked and if you think the other poster is trolling the silence is the best response - not a non sequitur.



Do you have scripture text specifically locating the rapture before the tribulation or not?

Let's deal with what you refuse to see in explicit statements:

"11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse, and He who sat on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and wages war. 12 His eyes are a flame of fire, and on His head are many crowns; and He has a name written on Him which no one knows except Himself. 13 He is clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies which are in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, were following Him on white horses. 15 From His mouth comes a sharp sword, so that with it He may strike down the nations, and He will [e]rule them with a rod of iron; and He treads the [f]wine press of the fierce wrath of God, the Almighty. 16 And on His robe and on His thigh He has a name written: “KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.”"

You look at this passage and say that this is all in heaven, and that an explicit statement that shows this is in bold above. Very nice. However, that statement is simply a descriptor. Shorten it. The heavenly armies. John is speaking of who/what this army is. They are clothed in fine linen, white and clean. Further describes just who they are. But it is the next part that you ignore. They were following Him on white horses. If the goal is to show this all in heaven, then why did the heavens open? So that the one who is Faithful and True can come out to Earth, and this heavenly army is following Him to Earth.

"17 Then I saw [g]an angel standing in the sun, and he cried out with a loud voice, saying to all the birds that fly in midheaven, “Come, assemble for the great feast of God, 18 so that you may eat the flesh of kings and the flesh of commanders, the flesh of mighty men, the flesh of horses and of those who sit on them, and the flesh of all people, both free and slaves, and small and great.”"

Are these birds assembling in heaven? Are the assembling to eat the flesh of all in heaven, or on Earth?

"19 And I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies, assembled to make war against Him who sat on the horse, and against His army."

Why are they assembling to make war against someone who isn't even coming? That makes absolutely no rational sense. The explicit image of this passage is that the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies are assembling against Jesus and His heavenly army that are present, as John says. Jesus isn't hiding in heaven. The heavens themselves have opened to Earth, and He is coming out with the heavenly army to destroy the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies. And the heavenly army is... following Him.

"20 And the beast was seized, and with him the false prophet who performed the signs [h]in his presence, by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image; these two were thrown alive into the lake of fire, which burns with [i]brimstone. 21 And the rest were killed with the sword which came from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse, and all the birds were filled with their flesh."

The beast and the false prophet were seized and thrown alive into the lake of fire, which burns with brimstone. Tell me that this verse does not explicitly state exactly that. Jesus personally kills the rest. Tell me the verse does not explicitly state that. And the birds were filled with their flesh. Tell me the verse does not explicitly state that. Tell me how this is in heaven and not on Earth. This is on Earth. This is Jesus second coming as conquering king, with the army of heaven behind Him.

 

[Josheb]

Let's deal with what you refuse to see in explicit statements:

Not until you learn to keep the posts about the posts and not the posters, stop attacking others with false accusations, and answer the question asked.

 

[Eleanor]

Scripture specifically stating the trinity?

Jn 1:1, 14 is a good place to start.

"the Word was God. . .the Word became flesh and dwelled among us."

Mt 28:19 is rather clear in its singular "name of the Father, and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit."

Scripture specifically locating the rapture before the tribulation?

 

[EarlyActs]

Page 3 is empty, with 2 page counts saying I'm on p3

 

[TMSO]

Jn 1:1, 14 is a good place to start.

"the Word was God. . .the Word became flesh and dwelled among us."

Mt 28:19 is rather clear in its singular "name of the Father, and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit."

Scripture specifically locating the rapture before the tribulation?

I am looking for the word trinity, but I'm just not finding it. You are talking about inferences, and implication. You aren't accepting that for the rapture, but you are pushing it for the trinity. All I am saying is that you are holding a double standard. You are pushing your beliefs, whether or not the Bible is explicit or not. I have no issue with the trinity, as I have no issue in the rapture. Even with these Bible verses, the trinity in the early church doesn't come up for about another century or two from when scripture was written. Someone put it all together. The same when you read the early church father's on the rapture before the tribulation. However, it isn't simply the tribulation, but the great tribulation, when God is pouring out His wrath. The plague of the death of the first born is on a completely different level than the first 9 plagues.

So, if you can't be specific on the trinity, and show this word somewhere in scripture, then you have your answer.

 

[TMSO]

Not until you learn to keep the posts about the posts and not the posters, stop attacking others with false accusations, and answer the question asked.

I said let's deal with you right? No I said let's deal with what you refuse to see in explicit statements. I am actually keeping it to what you said. WHAT you refuse to see. Am I showing you? No. I am showing WHAT you refuse to see. How many times do I have to say it. What you could do is show that it is a false accusation. Show that you didn't ignore where it says that they are following Him.

Also, I answered the question. Did you bother reading what I wrote? My first comment is the answer to your question. The second comment is this one.

 

[Josheb]

Scripture text specifically locating the rapture before the tribulation?

Scripture specifically stating the trinity?

Do you have scripture text specifically locating the rapture before the tribulation or not?

I Thessalonians 4 is not Jesus second coming. We meet Him in the air, and so (in the air) we will be with Him always.

Yes, it is the second coming. Assuming meeting him in the air precludes him coming to earth is a logical and exegetical error. It also contradicts the many texts reporting Christians go through the tribulation.

Let's deal with what you refuse to see in explicit statements:

I said let's deal with you right? No I said let's deal with what you refuse to see in explicit statements.

"Let's deal with what you refuse to see.... is what was posted. I do not refuse to see anything. The assumption anyone in the forum refuses to see anything is dross.

Matthew 24:9
Then they will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations because of my name.

Matthew 24:21-22
For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will. "Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short.

Mark 13:19-20
"For those days will be a time of tribulation such as has not occurred since the beginning of the creation which God created until now, and never will. "Unless the Lord had shortened those days, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect, whom He chose, He shortened the days.

Revelation 1:9
I, John, your brother and fellow partaker in the tribulation and kingdom and perseverance which are in Jesus, was on the island called Patmos because of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus.

Revelation 2:18-22
And to the angel of the church in Thyatira write: The Son of God, who has eyes like a flame of fire, and His feet are like burnished bronze, says this: 'I know your deeds, and your love and faith and service and perseverance, and that your deeds of late are greater than at first. But I have this against you, that you tolerate the woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess, and she teaches and leads My bondservants astray so that they commit acts of immorality and eat things sacrificed to idols. I gave her time to repent, and she does not want to repent of her immorality. Behold, I will throw her on a bed of sickness, and those who commit adultery with her into great tribulation, unless they repent of her deeds.'

Revelation 7:14
I said to him, "My lord, you know." And he said to me, "These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb."

Can you see it?

Worry about what you refuse to see because scripture plainly states Christians endure the great tribulation. They are handed over to it, partake in it, it gets cut short for their sake, and it is those who washed their robes in the blood of the Lamb that go through it. They are not raptured off the planet to avoid the great tribulation.

I Thessalonians 4 is not Jesus second coming.............

According to Matthew 24,

Matthew 24:29-31
Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

They get gathered after the tribulation.

Matthew 13:24-30
Jesus presented another parable to them, saying, "The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a man who sowed good seed in his field. But while his men were sleeping, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went away. But when the wheat sprouted and bore grain, then the tares became evident also. The slaves of the landowner came and said to him, 'Sir, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then does it have tares?' And he said to them, 'An enemy has done this!' The slaves *said to him, 'Do you want us, then, to go and gather them up?' But he said, 'No; for while you are gathering up the tares, you may uproot the wheat with them. Allow both to grow together until the harvest; and in the time of the harvest, I will say to the reapers, "First gather up the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them up; but gather the wheat into my barn.'"

1 Thessalonians 4 does not preclude the dead in sin also meet Jesus in the air.

Let's deal with what you refuse to see in explicit statements:

Matthew 7:5
You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's eye.


Next time keep the posts about the posts and not what you wrongly imagine others refuse to see.

Scripture text specifically locating the rapture before the tribulation?

Scripture specifically locating the rapture before the tribulation?

The question asked has not been answered!!! The 1 Thessalonians 4 text does NOT specifically locate the rapture before the tribulation. It does not locate the rapture at all! If seeing that is refused, then re-read the passage again.

And again.

And again.

As many times as it takes because the 1 Thes. 4 text does specifically locate the rapture before the tribulation. There' no mention of tribulation at all in the entire chapter!!! In point of fact, the only time the entire mentions any tribulation is in chapter 1 where the believers are commended for having "received the word in much tribulation with the joy of the Holy Spirit," to the point of being an example to others.




Now, can you answer her question or not? Where is the scripture text specifically locating the rapture before the tribulation, because there is a pile of scripture saying Christians endure the tribulation? Where is the scripture specifying the rapture precedes the tribulation? Where is the scripture explicitly stating the rapture comes prior to the tribulation?

If you have one, then post it.

If you have none, then just say so.

Either way, keep any mention of any poster out of it.

 

[EarlyActs]

Something is mechanically wrong with this thread, p3 is empty but I get notices of posts by Hobie, etc.

 

[TMSO]

Yes, it is the second coming. Assuming meeting him in the air precludes him coming to earth is a logical and exegetical error. It also contradicts the many texts reporting Christians go through the tribulation.

"Let's deal with what you refuse to see.... is what was posted. I do not refuse to see anything. The assumption anyone in the forum refuses to see anything is dross.

You realize you are a bully right? Just read this statement:

Now, can you answer her question or not?

Can she answer for herself, or are you taking it upon yourself? Do you gang up on everyone? Do you refuse to see that the point is that the very explicitness that you state is missing from the rapture, is also missing from the trinity and from Calvinism? The trinity took about a century to come together, alongside the time scripture was written. There are some who believe that scripture was not completely written until the end of the 2nd century. For Calvinism, you have to wait until Calvin and later. That is about a millennia and a half. And it is still argued to this day, because the detractors claim it is not explicitly stated in scripture. When was the first sermon that was clear on a rapture? 3 or 4 centuries, so even before Calvinism. Would you not agree that a belief forms quicker, the more explicit scripture is? I believe the trinity is covered well enough in scripture, and the apostles were around for a little while to start the education process that took time to reach completion. (About a century or two.) Who was the first premillennialist? Polycarp. Followed by Papias and Irenaeus. (Ignatius as well, if I recall). The reason why this is a big deal is that Polycarp was a disciple of the apostle John.

What you refused to see is the part where the army of heaven is behind Christ on horses following Him. Where to? To Earth in Revelation 19. You refused to see that there was action. They were not standing there in heaven and looking pretty. They are going out to war with people... on Earth. Revelation 19 is talking about Jesus second coming to destroy His enemies. The only part that your emphasized/highlighted was the descriptor of the army. The armies which are in heaven [so heavenly army, a descriptor. The army from heaven.] There are some who believe that the church that has been raptured will be with that army. That is because Colosians 3 says that when Christ is revealed, we too will be revealed with Him in glory. Colossians 3:4 "4 When Christ, who is our life, is revealed, then you also will be revealed with Him in glory." When is Jesus revealed? Revelation 19 "11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse, and He who sat on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and wages war." When do we appear with Him in glory at that time? "14 And the armies which are in heaven [heavenly, right?], clothed in fine linen, white and clean, were following Him on white horses." No reason to believe that the church could not be a part of this gathering. I mean, the marriage supper of the lamb is before this. And it is clear that they are clothed in fine linen, white and clean. Why mention "clean"? On the marriage supper:

Revelation 19 "7 Let’s rejoice and be glad and give the glory to Him, because the marriage of the Lamb has come [present tense], and His [b]bride has prepared herself [past tense].” 8 It was given to her to clothe herself in fine linen, bright and clean; for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the [c]saints.

9 Then he *said to me, “Write: ‘Blessed are those who are invited to the wedding feast of the Lamb.’” And he *said to me, “These are the true words of God.”"

What about the parable of the bridesmaid? Are they not being picked up for the marriage supper and the wedding? Are some not shut out? This is another view of a pre-tribulation (either the pre-trib 7 years, or pre-Great-Trib 3 1/2 years of some ECFs) rapture where Jesus gathers up the church who will be present to attend the marriage supper.

There is so much that you ignore, or change based on your beliefs. (That is a critique, not an attack.) Due to the time, I can't deal with the rest today, but I will get down in my bunker and await for your attack volley, where you don't deal with what I have stated, but directly/indirectly attack me. You will notice that I brought up what you have said before, and then dealt with it. Did I say anything about you in dealing with what you said? Outside of saying you refused to see four words in the passage and what they mean, no.

 

[Josheb]

You realize you are a bully right?

You realize that dross will not get you anywhere, right?


This op is about the false doctrine of a 7-year tribulation and your only task here, as a proponent of the 7yt, is to disprove the op by proving the 7-year tribulation. Nothing more. Derogatory comments about others will NEVER prove anything about any 7yt.

Get back on topic.

 

[TMSO]

You realize that dross will not get you anywhere, right?


This op is about the false doctrine of a 7-year tribulation and your only task here, as a proponent of the 7yt, is to disprove the op by proving the 7-year tribulation. Nothing more. Derogatory comments about others will NEVER prove anything about any 7yt.

Get back on topic.

There it is. The double barrel I was waiting for. You are so much better at this ad hominem stuff then I am. Not even ONE sentence dealing with the argument, or even an argument.

 

[TMSO]

Now, can you answer her question or not? Where is the scripture text specifically locating the rapture before the tribulation, because there is a pile of scripture saying Christians endure the tribulation? Where is the scripture specifying the rapture precedes the tribulation? Where is the scripture explicitly stating the rapture comes prior to the tribulation?

If you have one, then post it.

If you have none, then just say so.

Either way, keep any mention of any poster out of it.

No. That runs contrary to the OP. Stick with the OP please. If you are going to tell me to do that, then I will tell you. BTW, I haven't yet mentioned that your hermeneutic is inconsistent. I was ready to actually address the comment, as I said I would, but nope. Done. And, your hermeneutic is inconsistent.

 

[TMSO]

You realize that dross will not get you anywhere, right?


This op is about the false doctrine of a 7-year tribulation and your only task here, as a proponent of the 7yt, is to disprove the op by proving the 7-year tribulation. Nothing more. Derogatory comments about others will NEVER prove anything about any 7yt.

Get back on topic.

The thrust of the OP is the seven year tribulation. If I have anything to say on the rapture, I would first deal with his false assertion that it is a twentieth century invention with him, not with you. (I already have posted others outside of the 20th century who held to a rapture.)

 

[Hobie]

I Thessalonians 4 is not Jesus second coming. We meet Him in the air, and so (in the air) we will be with Him always. That is, as was stated so many centuries ago, in the rooms prepared for us by Jesus in His Father house. And if it were not so, Jesus would have told us.
John 14
"14 “Do not let your heart be troubled; [a]believe in God, believe also in Me. 2 In My Father’s house are many [b]rooms; if that were not so, [c]I would have told you, because I am going there to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I am coming again and will take you to Myself, so that where I am, there you also will be. 4 And you know the way where I am going.” 5 Thomas *said to Him, “Lord, we do not know where You are going; how do we know the way?” 6 Jesus *said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father except through Me."

Not on Earth, right? So not the second coming, correct?
I Thessalonians 4
"13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brothers and sisters, about those who [j]are asleep, so that you will not grieve as indeed the rest of mankind do, who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose from the dead, so also God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep [k]through Jesus. 15 For we say this to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive [l]and remain until the coming of the Lord will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a [m]shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive, who remain, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore, [n]comfort one another with these words."

The belief is that Paul is speaking of the rapture.
Intent of passage: But we do not want you to be uninformed about those who are asleep.
Why write the passage: Paul doesn't want the church grieving like the rest of mankind who have no hope.
God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep through Jesus.

Jesus will descend from heaven and the dead will rise first, then we will be caught UP with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. So Jesus never breaks through the clouds to Earth, which is what the young men told the disciple would happen at Jesus second coming. This is not Jesus second coming. This, by itself, I would say, shows the rapture is NOT at Jesus second coming. So, a no-go on a post-trib rapture. That leaves, logically, pre/mid trib raptures. That is probably why the ECF believed in it.

William Sherwin (1607-1687) had this to say “This Doctrine many of the ancient Fathers acknowledged … Justine Martyr … Irenaeus … Tertullian … even Augustine sometime held it, though by the subtlety of Satan, forgeing lyes to asperse the Millenary opinion, and stirring men up to foist in offensive errours … in these latter times hath again discovered it, after so many hundred years of its lying hid for the most part in the Church, to be a doctrine really embraced by his faithful people [who] will doubtless certainly know, that upon their rapture to meet Christ, they shall be perfected in glory evermore in heaven.”

When the Early Church Fathers (some/all?) dealt with it, most went with 3 1/2 years before the end. I don't know if any went with 7 years. However, that is because they believed the Great Tribulation to only be 3 1/2 years. The pouring out of God's wrath to destroy His blessed children is a bridge to far to believe. You are free to believe it, but I only believe that we will face general tribulation/persecution that comes before God pours out His wrath. And to further shape it, there are believers who will go through the Great Tribulation, however, they were not believers when the Great Tribulation started.

I Thessalonians 4:17
Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them, to meet the Lord in the air.

The living righteous 'we which are alive' will be gathered together with the resurrected righteous to meet the Lord in the air and taken up to the heavenly Kingdom. The righteous living will not taste death, but will be translated as were Enoch and Elijah, the saints in the grave are resurrected in the way Lazarus was.

 

[Josheb]

I Thessalonians 4:17
Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them, to meet the Lord in the air.

The living righteous 'we which are alive' will be gathered together with the resurrected righteous to meet the Lord in the air and taken up to the heavenly Kingdom. The righteous living will not taste death, but will be translated as were Enoch and Elijah, the saints in the grave are resurrected in the way Lazarus was.

Did Paul include himself in the "we"? Did Paul include the Thessalonian converts to Christ to whom he was writing in that "we"?

 

[Hobie]

Jn 1:1, 14 is a good place to start.

"the Word was God. . .the Word became flesh and dwelled among us."

Mt 28:19 is rather clear in its singular "name of the Father, and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit."

Scripture specifically locating the rapture before the tribulation?

The Godhead is given throughout the scriptures...

 

[EarlyActs]

First, lets read through the entire prophecy so that we get the whole idea first and then well break it down.

Daniel 9
24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. 25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. 26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. 27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

One thing that must be understood first is the a day for a year rule established in Eze 4:6. For every day that is mentioned in this and all other biblical prophecies they are equal to a prophetic year. There is virtually no debate about this point in Christian circles and well find that the rule holds true in this prophecy.

The Timeframe:
The angel Gabriel starts the prophecy by giving a block of time in verse 24, seventy weeks. Seventy weeks is equal to 490 days, or 490 prophetic years. That is our timeframe for this prophecy from beginning to end.

Verse 25 tells us when this timeframe begins, from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem. When did this occur? See Ezra 7; for this is the command where the rebuilding of Jerusalem was actually accomplished and that command was given by Artaxerxes, king of Persia; which occurred in 457 BC. There were two other kings that made similar commands to rebuild Jerusalem but those proved to not be fruitful.

This is the total 70-week block given by Gabriel in verses 25 & 27:
Block 1: 7 Weeks - (49 years) - Starts in 457 BC

Block 2: 62 Weeks - (434 years) - Starts in 408 BC

Block 3: 1 week - (7 years) - Starts in 27 AD

Lets look closely at the last week/ 7-year block (Block 3); for this is the period of time that many think will be the famous Seven-year Tribulation of the future:

3 ½ Years + 3 ½ Years = 7 years (one week)
o This block starts in 27 AD. What happened in this year? Christ was baptized, anointed, and started His public ministry.
o The "midst of the week" started in 31 AD (3 ½ years later). What happened in this year? Christ was killed on the cross. (New Covenant confirmed.)
o This block ends in 34 AD. What happened in this year? Stephen, the last disciple to the Jews, was stoned by the Sanhedrin and the Gospel went out to the Gentiles.

So we see that this breakdown perfectly follows the prophecy of Daniel 9 and we find that this prophecy was about the coming Messiah (Jesus Christ); history and later books of the Bible verify this.

Can you support that Stephen was the last disciple ‘to the Jews’?

 

[EarlyActs]

I Thessalonians 4:17
Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them, to meet the Lord in the air.

The living righteous 'we which are alive' will be gathered together with the resurrected righteous to meet the Lord in the air and taken up to the heavenly Kingdom. The righteous living will not taste death, but will be translated as were Enoch and Elijah, the saints in the grave are resurrected in the way Lazarus was.

The latter is prob more like the Mt 27 reference, not back to this life.

 

[Hobie]

Something is mechanically wrong with this thread, p3 is empty but I get notices of posts by Hobie, etc.

Is it working now..