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The False Doctrine of a 7-year Tribulation

The taking of land in 1948 is not another fulfillment of the promise of return.
According to apostolic teaching authoritative to the church, only one promise now remains. . .to graft them back into the one olive tree of God's people, the church, IF (not "when") they do not persist in unbelief (Ro 11:16-23).
And the land of present day Israel is not all of Canaan, not in it's original boundaries, not at peace. So they come up with another completely imagined from poor interpretive methods, of yet another return.

Never addressed in all of this is the fact that the northern kingdom (called Israel in Scripture) never did return, only the southern tribes (called Judah in scripture). And not all those in Babylon returned but remained in pagan lands under pagan rule.

Also Israel never had another king, were never intended to have an earthly king---God was their King and they wanted to be like the nations around them, so He let them. They made their bed and had to lie in it. And even when God allowed them to have a king, that king was meant to rule as a vassal king, obedient to his King. Very few did so.
 
Did it ever occur to you that the use of numbers and weeks here meant something to Daniel, who was a Prophet, that it does not mean to us? Or did you ever consider the possibility that it was given to Daniel to understand, as Gabriel said, and for God's purposes, but not for us to fully comprehend? (The numbers themselves.) We have the whole story as it played out, in our NT. The only reason the numbers take on such central importance in some, is because they do not understand the prophecy. And they don't see the work of Christ in His earthly ministry, as complete.

A completely manufactured eschatology is superimposed over the prophecy. One that reads the prophecy---and most of prophecy---and says the Dan 9 prophecy cannot be fulfilled in Christ's first coming, because unless God does something beyond that for ethnic Israel, He does not keep His promises to ethnic Israel. And therefore a gap theory is inserted into the prophecy in order to have God fulfilling His promises to Israel in the only way, that He can, according to this theory. It says there is only one way that God can save "all Israel", and that is through the way that the theory says He does it. It forgets (if one is Calvinist)that no one is ever saved but by the grace of God in regeneration. (Which is true according to Scripture whether one is Calvinist/Reformed or not.) But I think you are Calvinist, though I am not sure where and how I got that impression. If I am mistaken, my apologies. It forgets that all God needs to do in order to bring anyone into the covenant of redemption, is open blind eyes and deaf ears to hear the voice of the Shepherd and follow Him. And in the case of Israel, remove their hardness of heart that was a judgment while the Gentiles were brought in, the judgment complete.

In doing this, in attempting to calculate a date or time of Christ's return and the earthly thousand year reign of Christ in restored ethnic Israel, and the signs to watch for that precede a great tribulation period, (one they also profess to escape anyway, so why try and figure out when it will be); in counting the numbers to ascertain all these things, are they not looking into the things of God that He has specifically told us, that no one can know? Is it not enough to rest in what He has told us? Must we try and find in our own minds what He has not told us? If He has not told us, our minds will never find the answer. What is likely to happen, and in fact has happened, is telling God how He must do things, and a belief that He can only do them and keep His promises in that way. And then, sadly, preaching it as fact and truth.
God is certainly capable of "manipulating" numbers, (said from our temporal-locked POV), without being in the least false. Got a true story to tell, about a discussion years ago at my church, goes something like this:

A new-ish believer asked me and another older believer, (whom I didn't know from Adam), what it was like to try to consistently walk in obedience. The other believer made me smile when he said, "Oh, it's miserable!" I took up the tune, with, "You're always falling down and getting up to fall down again", and he chimed in with something like, "and there's always something to feel guilty about just waiting around the corner", and I said, "And the more you feel the need for the Lord..." and he says, "...yeah, the farther you see you have to go!" And I said, "And tell him about the money!" and he said, "—Yeah! You KNOW there's never enough to do what you have to do, yet somehow God always provides, and worrying about it makes no difference!" and I said, "You can do the math...!" which he interrupted me to say, "...and it always balances out", and we said together, "yet you very well KNOW there was not enough!"

In the same way that God can create Adam 25 [actual] years old in a single day, or an [actually] 15 billion year old universe in 6 days, without any logical contradiction except what comes from our foolish ignorant perspective, I'm fully confident that the answer to the numbers in what @Eleanor calls prophetic riddles will be visible, in the end, and like with so many other things that don't make sense to us, we will (figuratively) smack our foreheads in amazement, that the answer/explanation was right there in front of us the whole time, but we couldn't see it, and we will laugh in admiration at the wisdom of God and the "layout" of his plan.
 
God is certainly capable of "manipulating" numbers, (said from our temporal-locked POV), without being in the least false. Got a true story to tell, about a discussion years ago at my church, goes something like this:

A new-ish believer asked me and another older believer, (whom I didn't know from Adam), what it was like to try to consistently walk in obedience. The other believer made me smile when he said, "Oh, it's miserable!" I took up the tune, with, "You're always falling down and getting up to fall down again", and he chimed in with something like, "and there's always something to feel guilty about just waiting around the corner", and I said, "And the more you feel the need for the Lord..." and he says, "...yeah, the farther you see you have to go!" And I said, "And tell him about the money!" and he said, "—Yeah! You KNOW there's never enough to do what you have to do, yet somehow God always provides, and worrying about it makes no difference!" and I said, "You can do the math...!" which he interrupted me to say, "...and it always balances out", and we said together, "yet you very well KNOW there was not enough!"

In the same way that God can create Adam 25 [actual] years old in a single day, or an [actually] 15 billion year old universe in 6 days, without any logical contradiction except what comes from our foolish ignorant perspective, I'm fully confident that the answer to the numbers in what @Eleanor calls prophetic riddles will be visible, in the end, and like with so many other things that don't make sense to us, we will (figuratively) smack our foreheads in amazement, that the answer/explanation was right there in front of us the whole time, but we couldn't see it, and we will laugh in admiration at the wisdom of God and the "layout" of his plan.
I am going cover to cover again through the Bible. I have lost count of how many times, but many, plus the reading I do when not going through it like that. And even though I discover things that I did not see or understand before, every time, I find even more that I don't. It often leaves me with the feeling---and maybe the reality---that I know nothing at all. Of course, I have learned some things, but it is nothing compared to what there is.

As well as the many times I ask myself, "How did I not see that before?" There is one translation that speaks of the multifaceted wisdom of God. I like that word. It puts me in mind of a kaleidoscope (one of the many fascinations of my childhood).
 
But we now have another return to the land, following the diaspora, which is a continuation of the exile of Israel.
There is no continuation of what has been completed.

Again, the return from exile was fulfilled under Nehemiah and Ezra, when the wall was rebuilt, the temple was rebuilt and the people rededicated themselves to God again.
No promise of return remains, for it has been fulfilled.
 
You are not understanding.
I understand that OT scriptures has both Jews and Gentiles are gathered to Zion to worship the Lord.


The time of the Gentiles is now. The focus is on the Gentiles.
God has always had a focus on Gentiles coming to believe He is the only true God to worship.
The story of Naaman the Gentile, among others, expressly shows this.


Individuals are being saved of the Jews, but the nation of Israel, that is the remnant of God's elect within, will remain in partial blindness until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. At that time, the remnant of the Nation of Israel, the lost sheep of the house of Israel, will finally be gathered back into the fold. The Gentiles are already there at that point.
Think this through.
There have been Jews and Gentiles that have died for centuries that were blind in unbelief.
Are you one that thinks those that die in unbelief will be given another chance after death to believe and be saved?
 
I amazed how often what I say is repeated back to me as exactly, precisely, the opposite of what I had said.

I am sick of this repetition of
seventy weeks, seventy weeks, seventy this,seventy that.

It is so deeply imbedded in interpreting and so encased by a presupposition that national Israel must return to the land as national, ruling Israel, with Jesus as THEIR King, that it cannot understand what is said outside of it.

I wonder if I say it one last time, it will penetrate.

Forget about seventy weeks for one blasted second, not to change your view, but so you can understand what I am saying. In His first coming, Christ completed the work necessary for the future full redemption, the restoration of all things.

Until He returns we are in a right now, not yet, tension. There is no need for a thousand year reign of Christ and a restored national Israel, no need for for a seven year tribulation to end the hardening of Israel, no need for a rapture of the saints, pre or mid (especially if there is no seven year trib that creates a pre and a mid, in order for Christ to already have accomplished the work necessary to fulfill all of prophecy, and all the promises made to Israel, in Him, not in a reigning national Israel.

Read how the writers of the NT epistles, interpret Israel and the promises made to Israel. And notice they never speak of a thousand year earthly reign of Christ, or a rebuilt temple, or a return to the animal sacrifices, or seven years of tribulation. So why do you think that is what John is suddenly doing in the letter Revelation?
I am going to try to keep this short. Don't leave out the 70 weeks. It is important, or it would not be heralded as it is in Daniel. God sent Gabriel before Daniel finished praying to announce a DECREE. Not a simple prophecy, but a decree. And this decree is in relation to Israel and Jerusalem, and is given in answer to Daniel's pleas. Daniel prayed about the transgression, about sins, and atonement. That just happened to be part of the decree. The 70 weeks speaks solely to the redemption of Israel and Jerusalem. That is it. However, if one recognizes a gap, then one can see hidden in the prophecy what Paul calls the times of the Gentiles. Call it half time, where the game clock (prophetic clock) isn't running. A delay of game. The gap between Jesus rejection/death, and Jesus second coming. The 70th week is just the final climax to Jesus second coming. It is about Jesus, but it is mainly as Gabriel said, God's decree for Israel and Jerusalem. How it will all end. (The relationship between God and Israel.)

Again, you are the one who keeps bringing up the seven years. I talk about the 70th week and its divisions, but my beliefs of the seven years are my own. You can believe what you want, but understand, since the six given results of the 70 weeks has not happened yet, the 70 weeks have not ended. Jesus first coming set the stage for redemption, while His second coming at the end of the 70 weeks will bring about the fulfillment of redemption. Revelation gives a more granular look at what happens during the 70th week. Revelation 19 is the end of the 70 weeks, and is expounded upon in Zechariah. (Both testaments really do work together.)

Justin Martyr in his Dialogue with Trypho says: "“But I and others, who are right-minded Christians on all points, are assured that there will be a resurrection of the dead, and a thousand years in Jerusalem, which will then be built, adorned, and enlarged, as the prophets Ezekiel and Isaiah and others declare.”" (2nd century)

Papias, who is said to have been a student of Polycarp, and who had heard John the apostle, was a premillennialist. Things are stated so that there is no doubt. Irenaeus was also a premillennialst, and he too was a student of Polycarp. Ignatius as well, who was a disciple of both John the apostle and possibly Peter. Due note I did not say dispensational, or pretrib or anything like that.
 
There is no continuation of what has been completed.

Again, the return from exile was fulfilled under Nehemiah and Ezra, when the wall was rebuilt, the temple was rebuilt and the people rededicated themselves to God again.
No promise of return remains, for it has been fulfilled.
That was the end of the 70 years. That is not related to the 70 weeks, except that the 70 weeks started at the end of the 70 years. God is telling Daniel that while God is still against them, that will end after 70 weeks. God will redeem Israel, reconcile with Israel, when the 70 weeks end.
 
I understand that OT scriptures has both Jews and Gentiles are gathered to Zion to worship the Lord.
The church is made up of Jews and Gentiles. It is not Israel, as Israel is the group which God says are the chosen people of God. Chosen out of all the nations that surrounded them. Why? To be the people of promise. The ones through whom the promised one, the Messiah would come. Also the reason why Jesus told the Cushite woman that He was sent by the Father to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. However Jesus also said, in John 10:6 " “And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice;" Why are they "not of this fold?" The fold that is His is His chosen people Israel. And then we get into how Paul says that not all who are of Israel (the group) are of Israel (individual basis.) Hence the "lost sheep of the house of Israel". Not all are sheep.
God has always had a focus on Gentiles coming to believe He is the only true God to worship.
The story of Naaman the Gentile, among others, expressly shows this.
Naaman is an individual. The times of the Gentiles is dealing with Gentiles as a group, the same as when Paul says that after the fulness of the Gentiles has come in, "thus all Israel will be saved", is speaking of a group. Individual Jews are saved all the time, or, at least we know they are being saved. However, the remnant, the group of the elect within Israel, will not be saved as a group, until after the fulness of the Gentiles has come in. Note it doesn't say until after ALL the gentiles have come in, but only the fulness. Again, it speaks to a group. And the "times of the Gentiles" speaks to the group, not to individuals. It speaks to the focus of the plan of redemption. When Israel rejected the Messiah, the focus shifted to the Gentiles, and Israel was partially blinded/hardened. That is, the group. Partially blinded, because there were/are still Jews being saved. That is on an individual level.
Think this through.
There have been Jews and Gentiles that have died for centuries that were blind in unbelief.
Are you one that thinks those that die in unbelief will be given another chance after death to believe and be saved?
And the one's who are saved are the remnant. However, if you don't have a group that attains to a certain standard (in this case, the chosen people of God), then you can't have the remnant Paul spoke of, and the remnant that God spoke to Elijah about. There is a remnant in Israel that are God's elect. The rest are "not of Israel". They are of Israel (physical), but not of Israel (spiritual).
 
Don't leave out the 70 weeks. It is important, or it would not be heralded as it is in Daniel. God sent Gabriel before Daniel finished praying to announce a DECREE. Not a simple prophecy, but a decree.
First, a prophecy is a decree, and second,
Forget about seventy weeks for one blasted second, not to change your view, but so you can understand what I am saying. In His first coming, Christ completed the work necessary for the future full redemption, the restoration of all things.
See? It is just as I said, you are unable to look at the prophecy without making a big deal out of the seventy weeks, as though that is the POINT of the prophecy, and therefore nothing can be understood until exactly what that means for our world and time. Truthfully, it like asking a Catholic to read and understand the Scripture without superimposing Catholic dogma and interpretation onto it. I.e, every time it says "church" it means the Catholic religion and institution, and apostles means current popes and bishops.

And therefore you are unable to understand what I have said or what @Eleanor has said. You read the above quoted sentence without ever seeing as significant, perhaps without ever even seeing, the word "work" in it. Even though I purposely bolded it to draw your attention to it. It shows no genuine interest in considering what I or anyone else says.

It is a view, and a means of Bible interpretation, that acknowledges covenant and covenants, but puts them under a subheading of dispensations being the way God is dealing with humanity. When in fact He always relates first and foremost with both mankind and what is in creation (creation itself) through covenant. A covenant, whether formal or evidenced by covenantal language, is a relationship. It is how God establishes a firm and trustworthy personal relationship with people. It is how He reveals Himself and righteousness to a fallen and helpless world, and it is how He redeems them---by bringing them into a covenant established by Jesus Christ.

So you go right ahead and keep looking under rocks, and searching the skies, and reading the newspaper or watching the news, to see if Jesus is about to redeem ethnic Israel, and call that His return. To see when that seventy weeks will begin. I suppose it won't hurt anything. God loses none of those He has given to Christ. And it really makes no difference to me. It was just another conversation in which whatever I said was argued against, though never understood, never given consideration, and that went nowhere.

Keep in mind though, that it is possible this is the seventy weeks. That this is the thousand years as representative of an undetermined but by God, long period of time (not an alien concept to other parts of the Bible), that His kingdom already has come as He is crowned King now, having completed the work of redemption and returned to the Father. Consider the possibility that He is not sitting at the right hand of the Father waiting to be crowned as King over Israel.

Consider that the kingdom has come in the sense that until He returns to consummate redemption and destroy forever sin and death, (that is the kingdom my friend) the gospel is going out to the world, gathering in the flock. And consider that yes, persecution of the church will no doubt get worse than what we have ever seen, in that it will be world wide. Consider that is what is meant by satan being released to deceive the nations, whereas he was bound from deceiving the nations before. And consider that anyone who is still alive when that happens, is not going to be raptured out of it, but must endure it. Consider that may be the purpose of Rev. To strengthen and encourage the believer to stand firm. Underneath are the Everlasting Arms. Those who were the first recipients of the letter, were themselves going through great tribulation and persecution, sometimes compromising,sometimes losing hope.
 
First, a prophecy is a decree, and second,

See? It is just as I said, you ar.....[snip]

That is such a misinformed statement. And actually false and wrong. You obviously do not know what the Hebrew word used as "decree" really means. The word is NEVER used for a written document by an earthly king. NEVER. So your assumption is totally wrong.
 
That is such a misinformed statement. And actually false and wrong. You obviously do not know what the Hebrew word used as "decree" really means. The word is NEVER used for a written document by an earthly king. NEVER. So your assumption is totally wrong.
I was not talking about an earthly king, and neither was the poster I was responding to.

Are you here for the purpose of throwing stones at people you don't like? That is all I ever see you doing when you insert yourself into conversations I am having with others. You turn it into posts about the poster, and not actually about the post.
 
I was not talking about an earthly king, and neither was the poster I was responding to.

Are you here for the purpose of throwing stones at people you don't like? That is all I ever see you doing when you insert yourself into conversations I am having with others. You turn it into posts about the poster, and not actually about the post.
You continually remove my comments because they call you out for going against the forum rules. I screen capture every comment and deletion.
 
You continually remove my comments because they call you out for going against the forum rules. I screen capture every comment and deletion.
Eclipse I have not been called out about anything. I have been falsely accused. I have not violated any rules. I am admin. I can point out when you are violating them. I can point out, as now, that when you are called out for violating rules, or showing signs of a troll who does exactly what I asked you if you were doing; when that happens to you, you simply attack admin and justify your own sins. Gas lighting. Baiting, then accusing the one you baited of doing what you are doing, and :cry::cry::cry: about it. Grow a 🍐.

You could have just kept quiet about it. I deleted those two posts, and without even giving warning points or saying anything about them (learn when to be thankful) to keep this out of the public eye, but since you keep insisting that the public sees only your input---here is mine---in the public. I would think long and hard before I carried on.
 
The church is made up of Jews and Gentiles.
The church has always been made up of believers.
Believers are God's people, unbelievers are not.
Believers are heirs according to the promise.


Naaman is an individual.
Naaman was a believer, as were many other Gentiles.

And the one's who are saved are the remnant.
The ones who are saved are believers.
 
There is no continuation of what has been completed.
No there isn't. I guess that is why it is a good thing that it hasn't been completed yet? Where can you mark a time that the transgression of Israel against God (their rebellion) was finished? You can't mark such a date, can you? They are still in rebellion and transgression aren't they? How about making an end of sin? I mean a way has been made, but an end of sin has yet to happen. They are still in sin aren't they? Atonement for the iniquity? If they still have the iniquity, has atonement been applied? It has not been completed yet. It will be completed at Jesus second coming.
Again, the return from exile was fulfilled under Nehemiah and Ezra, when the wall was rebuilt, the temple was rebuilt and the people rededicated themselves to God again.
No promise of return remains, for it has been fulfilled.
Someone made a point of digging deep and connected Ezekiel, Jeremiah, and Leviticus together. Jeremiah said the exile would be 70 years, while Ezekiel said 430 years. The 70 years happened as prophesied. So that leaves 460 years left for Ezekiel's prophecy of the return of Israel. That is according to their calendar which was 360 days in a year. For us, it is 365.224 days in a year. A point they made was something written in Leviticus.
"if you reject my decrees and abhor my laws and fail to carry out all my commands and so violate my covenant, 16 then I will do this to you: … 17 I will set my face against you so that you will be defeated by your enemies; those who hate you will rule over you, and you will flee even when no one is pursuing you.

18 ” ‘If after all this you will not listen to me, I will punish you for your sins seven times over. 19 I will break down your stubborn pride and make the sky above you like iron and the ground beneath you like bronze…

21 ” ‘If you remain hostile toward me and refuse to listen to me, I will multiply your afflictions seven times over, as your sins deserve…

23 ” ‘If in spite of these things you do not accept my correction but continue to be hostile toward me, 24 I myself will be hostile toward you and will afflict you for your sins seven times over….

27 ” ‘If in spite of this you still do not listen to me but continue to be hostile toward me, 28 then in my anger I will be hostile toward you, and I myself will punish you for your sins seven times over…"

Seven times. After their return from Babylon, they did not listen. If you take the 440 years, convert for the Gregorian calendar, and multiply that by 7, and run that from 537AD you get... (drumroll please) 1948. That is by the lunar calendar you get 2520 years, which converts to 2484 years on the Gregorian calendar. 537 AD was the end of the 70 years of Jeremiah, so if one runs 2484 years from 537AD, you get 1948.

What happened in 1948? Israel became a country again. This adds to the others of Ezekiel's prophecies:
Ezekiel 34: "11 “For thus says the Lord God: Behold, I, I myself will search for my sheep, and will seek them out. 12 As a shepherd seeks out his flock when some of his sheep[a] have been scattered abroad, so will I seek out my sheep; and I will rescue them from all places where they have been scattered on a day of clouds and thick darkness. 13 And I will bring them out from the peoples, and gather them from the countries, and will bring them into their own land; and I will feed them on the mountains of Israel, by the fountains, and in all the inhabited places of the country."

This can't be talking about Babylon, because scripture is clear that they are being brought back from the nation of Babylon, not from many countries or nations. This speaks of the end of the diaspora, which, as a group the nation of Israel, ended in 1948.

I don't accept it without thought, but it is interesting that prophecy might be so direct as to give exact dates. It does go to show that perhaps a scholar didn't add the 70 years prophecy to Jeremiah, and add Cyrus to the prophecy. It just adds another level of mystery to God's dealings with Israel and with mankind in general.
 
First, a prophecy is a decree, and second,
You missed the point. It is declared a decree to Daniel, and it meant something to Daniel. Why? He was in Babylon. I apologize for not realizing that you are a steadfast determinist. Are you sure you are covenant?
See? It is just as I said, you are unable to look at the prophecy without making a big deal out of the seventy weeks, as though that is the POINT of the prophecy, and therefore nothing can be understood until exactly what that means for our world and time. Truthfully, it like asking a Catholic to read and understand the Scripture without superimposing Catholic dogma and interpretation onto it. I.e, every time it says "church" it means the Catholic religion and institution, and apostles means current popes and bishops.
When I look at Israel, I obviously can't get passed the 70 weeks. How many times do I have to say that these 70 weeks are for Israel? I'm sorry for believing God is faithful to His people, against the popular belief that God has completely rejected them. To the point that you would say that I make a big deal of the 70 weeks. You should consider reading the Pseudo Ephraem from the 5th century. Eye opening.
And therefore you are unable to understand what I have said or what @Eleanor has said. You read the above quoted sentence without ever seeing as significant, perhaps without ever even seeing, the word "work" in it. Even though I purposely bolded it to draw your attention to it. It shows no genuine interest in considering what I or anyone else says.
I think the difference is that you believe everything is spiritual, while I believe it is both physical and spiritual. Hence prophecy is literal, or has a literal component. Like the author you presented before saying that "bring in everlasting righteousness" is not what it says. He says, well, that is because it comes from eternity... what? It is everlasting righteousness. A righteousness that is everlasting, that is, it never ends. There is no need to read anything else into it, unless your belief requires... oh.
It is a view, and a means of Bible interpretation, that acknowledges covenant and covenants, but puts them under a subheading of dispensations being the way God is dealing with humanity. When in fact He always relates first and foremost with both mankind and what is in creation (creation itself) through covenant. A covenant, whether formal or evidenced by covenantal language, is a relationship. It is how God establishes a firm and trustworthy personal relationship with people. It is how He reveals Himself and righteousness to a fallen and helpless world, and it is how He redeems them---by bringing them into a covenant established by Jesus Christ.
You should read about the covenent theology history. It started AFTER the reformation, within about 3 decades of dispensationalism. It came into being because they did not agree with the strict determinism (read, very calvinistic) of the reformers. It isn't because something is present explicitly in scripture, where as dispensations are. (And I'll let covenant theology and dispensationalists have at it. I don't have anything in that fight.)
So you go right ahead and keep looking under rocks, and searching the skies, and reading the newspaper or watching the news, to see if Jesus is about to redeem ethnic Israel, and call that His return. To see when that seventy weeks will begin. I suppose it won't hurt anything. God loses none of those He has given to Christ. And it really makes no difference to me. It was just another conversation in which whatever I said was argued against, though never understood, never given consideration, and that went nowhere.
You keep making up stories. The redemption of the remnant of Israel (not sure where you are getting ethnic Israel from) will occur at Jesus second coming. I'm just not sure where you animosity against God's chosen people comes from.
Keep in mind though, that it is possible this is the seventy weeks. That this is the thousand years as representative of an undetermined but by God, long period of time (not an alien concept to other parts of the Bible), that His kingdom already has come as He is crowned King now, having completed the work of redemption and returned to the Father. Consider the possibility that He is not sitting at the right hand of the Father waiting to be crowned as King over Israel.
Again, I believe we are in a delayed state because of Israel's rejection of the Messiah. It is the times of the Gentiles, which are not written explicitly in the prophecy, but one can see how it can fit in. The destruction of the city and the temple should be an obvious sign that things are not running as one would believe they would. God said that the transgression and sin would end at the end of the 70 weeks. They have not, which would logically mean that the 70th week has not happened yet. Everlasting righteousness has not come into Israel/Jerusalem. Another sign that the 70th week has not occurred yet. There is nothing in the prophecy that says they 70 weeks are contiguous/continuous. And it is already broken up with 7 and 62. The last week is completely separated from those, with Jesus death, and the destruction of the city and sanctuary occurring before it ever mentions the 70th week. The point of this whole discussion (from me) is to present the case that the 70th week is yet to come. That's it. Also to ensure you understand that when God said the 70 weeks were for "your people and your holy city", that that never changed. It is a decree. Immutable. This particular prophecy is intended solely to Israel. Why do you believe this is the only prophecy in scripture? You seem to get upset to think that there is any prophecies that speak well of Israel at the end of time. I have seen it before. I had someone who refused to accept that God would even save a remnant.
Consider that the kingdom has come in the sense that until He returns to consummate redemption and destroy forever sin and death, (that is the kingdom my friend) the gospel is going out to the world, gathering in the flock. And consider that yes, persecution of the church will no doubt get worse than what we have ever seen, in that it will be world wide. Consider that is what is meant by satan being released to deceive the nations, whereas he was bound from deceiving the nations before. And consider that anyone who is still alive when that happens, is not going to be raptured out of it, but must endure it. Consider that may be the purpose of Rev. To strengthen and encourage the believer to stand firm. Underneath are the Everlasting Arms. Those who were the first recipients of the letter, were themselves going through great tribulation and persecution, sometimes compromising,sometimes losing hope.
The consummation of redemtion is the beginning of His kingdom. The physical manifestation, which is the fulfillment of prophecies in the Old Testament. Whenever the disciples asked about it, Jesus NEVER said it would not happen. He gave them an answer. When they asked for the signs of His coming into the kingdom (what would be the sign of your coming), He answered. When they asked "will you now return the kingdom to Israel", He didn't say no. He said that it is not for them to know the times and seasons established by the Father. In other words, it WILL happen.

"10 Because you have kept my word of patient endurance, I will keep you from the hour of trial which is coming on the whole world, to try those who dwell upon the earth."

What is this hour of trial which is coming on the WHOLE WORLD, to try those who dwell upon the earth? How are they to avoid it? Will they face it?
 
The church has always been made up of believers.
Believers are God's people, unbelievers are not.
Believers are heirs according to the promise.



Naaman was a believer, as were many other Gentiles.


The ones who are saved are believers.
You do know what the remnant was that Paul spoke of, right? The remnant...you know, the elect of God in the nation of Israel? A good description as given by God Himself to Elijah. My feeling is that when the Great Tribulation is over, the only survivors of the nation of Israel will be the remnant.
 
I apologize for not realizing that you are a steadfast determinist. Are you sure you are covenant?
Hey, I did not realize that either! How did you come to that realization and what do you even mean by it?

And how does any form of determinism negate covenant?
It is declared a decree to Daniel, and it meant something to Daniel.
Have I ever said otherwise?
I think the difference is that you believe everything is spiritual, while I believe it is both physical and spiritual. Hence prophecy is literal, or has a literal component.
Again you assume things about me that are incorrect. Of course prophecy that is given in signs and symbols has a literal component. I do not believe everything is spiritual. I don't think you know what that means anymore than you appear to not know the difference between spiritual and spiritualizing. It is pretty much the norm in dispensational views of the millenium and in interpreting apocalyptic prophecy, to say they are interpreting literally, when in fact they are literalizing.
Like the author you presented before saying that "bring in everlasting righteousness" is not what it says. He says, well, that is because it comes from eternity... what? It is everlasting righteousness. A righteousness that is everlasting, that is, it never ends. There is no need to read anything else into it, unless your belief requires... oh.
I have not the slightest clue what you are talking about.
You keep making up stories. The redemption of the remnant of Israel (not sure where you are getting ethnic Israel from) will occur at Jesus second coming. I'm just not sure where you animosity against God's chosen people comes from.
It is also common for those of a dispensational view of redemption to eventually fall back on this accusation. (BTW, ethnic Israel is Jewish Israel, national Israel.) And at Jesus' second coming the temporal is replace by the eternal. Read your Bible. You have Christ returning and the temporal remaining for a thousand years.I could give counteless scriptures to support this, but at the moment I have neither the time nor inclination to waste time doing so. It would be pointless.

God's chosen people are all those in Christ through faith. Before Christ came, and for specific purposes, Israel was a chosen nation---a nation that did not exist until God created it. He chose them because He loved them, even though they were a stubborn and rebellious people. (His words not mine. And all unredeemed people are stubborn and rebellious by nature.) Do I think Israel and her people still have a special place in His heart and in His purpose. Yes I do. Do I have any animosity towards Israel or Jews. Absolutely not! Do I believe that God has utterly rejected them. No. Does that of necessity mean that He intends to rebuild the nation, reinstitute the animal sacrifices, even as the final sacrifice sits on an earthly throne in Jerusalem, overseeing such an abomination (after He destroyed the temple in 70 a.d. to put an end to those sacrifices and that priesthood,) and do this for a thousand years, just to keep His promise of a sovereign nation and an earthly king? No!! Such a thing speaks to the insufficiency of Christ's work during His earthly ministry.
 
You should read about the covenent theology history. It started AFTER the reformation, within about 3 decades of dispensationalism. It came into being because they did not agree with the strict determinism (read, very calvinistic) of the reformers. It isn't because something is present explicitly in scripture, where as dispensations are.
Irrelevant.
Again, I believe we are in a delayed state because of Israel's rejection of the Messiah. It is the times of the Gentiles, which are not written explicitly in the prophecy, but one can see how it can fit in. The destruction of the city and the temple should be an obvious sign that things are not running as one would believe they would. God said that the transgression and sin would end at the end of the 70 weeks. They have not, which would logically mean that the 70th week has not happened yet. Everlasting righteousness has not come into Israel/Jerusalem. Another sign that the 70th week has not occurred yet. There is nothing in the prophecy that says they 70 weeks are contiguous/continuous. And it is already broken up with 7 and 62. The last week is completely separated from those, with Jesus death, and the destruction of the city and sanctuary occurring before it ever mentions the 70th week. The point of this whole discussion (from me) is to present the case that the 70th week is yet to come. That's it. Also to ensure you understand that when God said the 70 weeks were for "your people and your holy city", that that never changed. It is a decree. Immutable. This particular prophecy is intended solely to Israel. Why do you believe this is the only prophecy in scripture? You seem to get upset to think that there is any prophecies that speak well of Israel at the end of time. I have seen it before. I had someone who refused to accept that God would even save a remnant.
You keep going over the same ground. I heard you everytime. I countered from my view and got nothing back concerning it. Just your view repeated. If you think I am going to go over that same ground again, you are mistaken. You did not consider it or even understand it the first, second, third, fourth, or fifth time. There is a blockage there. How is it that I can understand what you are saying, but you cannot understand what I am saying?
This particular prophecy is intended solely to Israel. Why do you believe this is the only prophecy in scripture? You seem to get upset to think that there is any prophecies that speak well of Israel at the end of time. I have seen it before. I had someone who refused to accept that God would even save a remnant.
Eventually it comes to things like this, and the accusation that I have animosity towards the Jews. All unfounded and never even implied by me.

Why, if I have a different interpretation of Dan 9 than you do, does it equate to me believing it is the only prophecy in scripture? Why do you say I am upset? Why do you say that I don't think that prophecies speak well of Israel at the end time? Why do you take what I DO say as not wanting anything in Scripture to speak well of Israel at the end of time? Why do you even think that I don't think it speaks well of Israel?

What you have done is decided that if I don't agree with your view of what is well for Israel, and see it instead some other way, then I don't want any prophecy to speak well of Israel in the end? I have told you my view of how God does this, and look!--once again it is though I never said it. Instead everything is twisted into the atrocious and baseless accusations you make above. It is either your way or it is anti-semitism. It is telling that it so often comes to this from the POV you present.
 
The consummation of redemtion is the beginning of His kingdom.
The consummation of redemption is not the beginning of His kingdom. That would be saying that He has no kingdom now. That He has not been exalted.It would take all meaning out of Luke 17:20-21 Being asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, he answered them, "The kingdom of God is not coming in ways that can be observed, nor will they saying 'Look, here it is!' of 'There!" for behold, the kingdom of God is within you."

This is the consummation of redemption:
Rev 20:14 Then Death and hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
Rev 21:1-4 Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more. And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, "Behold, the dwelling place of God is with man. He will dwell with them, and the will be his people, and God himself will be with them as their God. He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more,neither shall there be mourning, nor crying nor pain anymore, for the former things have passed away.
 
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